For those who fly behind turbines

[mustang51]

This is a must read for you all. A short easy test will follow. If you don't pass it you will be on the ground for 30 days.

We gotta get rid of those turbines, they're ruining aviation and our hearing...A turbine is too simple minded, it has no mystery. The air travels through it in a straight line and doesn't pick up any of the pungent fragrance of engine oil or pilot sweat. Anybody can start a turbine. You just need to move a switch from "OFF" to " START" and then remember to move it back to "ON" after awhile. My PC is harder to start.

Cranking a round engine requires skill, finesse and style. You have to seduce it into starting. It's like waking up a sleeping wife. On some planes, the pilots aren't even allowed to do it...

Turbines start by whining for awhile, then give a lady-like poof and start whining a little louder. Round engines give a satisfying rattle-rattle, click-click, BANG, more rattles, another BANG, a big macho fart or two, more clicks, a lot more smoke and finally a serious low pitched roar. We like that. It's a GUY thing!..When you start a round engine, your mind is engaged and you can concentrate on the flight ahead. Starting a turbine is like flicking on a ceiling fan: Useful, but, hardly exciting.

When you have started his round engine successfully your crewchief looks up at you like he would let you kiss his girl too! Turbines don't break or catch fire often enough, leading to aircrew boredom, complacency and inattention. A round engine at speed looks and sounds like it's going to blow any minute. This helps concentrate the mind! Turbines don't have enough control levers or gauges to keep a pilot's attention. There's nothing to fiddle with during the long flight.

Turbines smell like a Boy Scout Camp full of Coleman Lamps. Round engines smell like God intended machines to smell.

The test:
I know you all can name the 4 cycles of 4 cycle engine. How many cycles does a turbine have? I you say only one because it is straight through you are wrong.
Engines get their power from burning?
Motors get thier power from using what?
I will not be grading you on this....others will...and what they say stands.
Good luck....must go now..have other things to do. :wave:

[Lionheart]

<-- likes all types, from jugs to whiners.. :d

[jkcook28]

Turbine engine 5 steps, and I remember this from 1980:
Suck, Squeeze, Burn, Turn, and Blow. How's that for cycles! :d
(afterburners would be additional)

[Wing_Z]

I've never figured out why igniting a fuel-air mix in an open tube with a lot of whirly things inside, doesn't just blow a big fart out both ends... :weightlifter:

[mustang51]

JK....think it's only three. AB's would just be part of the whole thing...right? A little extra blow maybe. The grading panel may have to ground you.

[Wing_Z]

Oh right...Brayton Cycle...
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/brayton.html
Afterburning is a fourth step however.

[Astoroth]

<-- likes all types, from jugs to whiners.. :d


MMM, yeah, I like jugs too........:whistle:

[CaptainCernick]

I like both. As for sounds, to me, the roar of an Rolls Royce RB211 is almost just as awesome as the loudest, crankiest radial.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQ9JqT7b_TA

[jkcook28]

You want cranky radials...

kmFJ08E0l1k

[mustang51]

Now that's what we are talking about jkcook. Forgot to say that it almost takes three hands to get all the stuff turned on at the right time. Is there anyone out there that can tell us what it was like to start one with the "shot gun starter"? What is the real name for that system?
Bob

[jhefner]

Is there anyone out there that can tell us what it was like to start one with the "shot gun starter"? What is the real name for that system?
Bob

Cartridge starter. Using one to start a radial engine is well illustrated in the movie Flight of the Phoenix.

-James

[srgalahad]

Also called a Combustion Starter, --more specifically, Kaufmann/Coffmann Cartridge Starter (I've seen both spellings).

(more than you probably wanted to know... http://www.enginehistory.org/accessories.htm --scroll to end of page)

Rob

[Moparmike]

You want cranky radials...


I almost cry whenever I watch that one John! Such sweet music!

[Firebar]

Turbine engine 5 steps, and I remember this from 1980:
Suck, Squeeze, Burn, Turn, and Blow. How's that for cycles! :d
(afterburners would be additional)

Rolls-Royce says a turbine has 4 stages: same as a 4-stroke.

Intake - compression - combustion - exhaust.

From Rolls Royce Ltd : The Jet Engine - published 1969 and reissued 1973

But yeah most big whirly props sound better, although I have to say that 4 x RR Olympus Turbojets sounds pretty good too (and you get a *lot* of switches!)

[mustang51]

Yes you could say a turbine has four cycles. No right answer yet, to my way of thinking, one was close. How about the other two questions, those are easy.

[PRB]

Engines get power from buring some sort of fuel, like gasoline, while "motors", technically, are electric devices that produce rotational energy by placing a a magnet in an electric field, which causes it (the rotor) to turn. Or something like that!

I like shop heaters and cranky engines too. All airplanes are fun!

[Wing_Z]

You want cranky radials...
Music...chorus of cranky Merlins ain't half bad either...

[Tom Clayton]

Rolls-Royce says a turbine has 4 stages: same as a 4-stroke.

Intake - compression - combustion - exhaust.
Also known as "Suck-Squeeze-Bang-Blow" - now get your mind out of the gutter!:engel016:

[thedude247]

Now that's what we are talking about jkcook. Forgot to say that it almost takes three hands to get all the stuff turned on at the right time. Is there anyone out there that can tell us what it was like to start one with the "shot gun starter"? What is the real name for that system?
Bob

I believe the proper term is Coffman Starter, It's essentially a high air pressure starter that is triggered with a Shot gun cartridge mechanism.

I'm a mechanic by trade, so I've got a rare chance to study one. :jump:

[Tom Clayton]

Pistons aren't the only things started by those things. The Pratt & Whitney J-57-P-59W's mounted on the old KC-135A's had what amounted to an Estes rocket engine - an Estes engine that was 6" long and 8" wide! They burned in about 5 seconds and in that time the pilots had to do all the lever and switch flipping they normally did in 15-20 seconds. Eng's 1 and 4 were started that way, then those were run up and the inboards were started on bleed air. Less than one minute from butts in the seats to taxi-ready ain't nuthin' to sneeze at!

The only bad part was cleaning the cartridge receivers afterwards!

[LouP]

Thanks for the video, awesome even if they weren't all round engines.

LouP

[srgalahad]

A couple of good photos of cartridge-starts on B-57's:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3363/3223786872_76dd327d67.jpg?v=0 http://www.b-57canberra.org/images/start_taxi_to-b-57_engine_start.jpg

and a not-so-great sound file of a start...
http://www.b-57canberra.org/b-57sounds.htm

Rob

[Brian_Gladden]

Too bad someone couldn't come up with an effect like that for the Alphasim Canberra's....


Brian

[Willy]

The RR Griffon used in the later Spitfires started with a Coffman cartridge starter. I found the sound file for it in one sound set and re-used it in my Spit XIV and XIXs. I also use it in a few round engine sound sets as well.

[mustang51]

Tom....did you have to clean those cartriges? Where is that sound file for the Griffon? Are you sure they used that?

[Willy]

According to the RAF Pilot's Notes and other sources I found, the Griffon engines in the Spitfire did. I believe the Merlins used a different type starter. But the Pilot's Notes is what I've got on hand. I redid the sound package to use the Coffman sound instead of whatever starter sound that came with them.

Not sure if it was correct or not, but I also used it in the P&W Hornet sound pack that I use for the Gee Bee R-6H. I just like the bang, then the engine starting up.

[Tom Clayton]

Tom....did you have to clean those cartriges?
Yep! Break-Free and a wire brush - plus a lot of elbow grease and time - got the receivers nice and shiny!

[Lionheart]

Pistons aren't the only things started by those things. The Pratt & Whitney J-57-P-59W's mounted on the old KC-135A's had what amounted to an Estes rocket engine - an Estes engine that was 6" long and 8" wide! They burned in about 5 seconds and in that time the pilots had to do all the lever and switch flipping they normally did in 15-20 seconds. Eng's 1 and 4 were started that way, then those were run up and the inboards were started on bleed air. Less than one minute from butts in the seats to taxi-ready ain't nuthin' to sneeze at!

The only bad part was cleaning the cartridge receivers afterwards!

Goodness, lololol...

Rocket starters..

Amazing what we learn here.




Bill

[DaveQ]

"You want cranky radials..."

Can we have our Jug back now please?

DaveQ - not that far from Duxford!:kilroy: