CFS3 Terrain Creation - is anyone still around? [Archive]

gecko

December 26th, 2023, 01:18

This is a shot in the dark kind of, but has anyone here ever secretly dabbled in terrain creation, or are any of the legends from the past who have done it still lurking around here on occasion?

I've had Global Mapper for a while and thought I'd finally use some down time around the holidays to see if I could understand something of it. I've downloaded the tutorials on it I could find, but I have yet to successfully use the ers2tiff.exe tool. I always get the error message: Failed to load any input file. It might be something with the way I'm exporting data, or or something with the command line parameters I'm using. This is with the SRTM 30 arc second data for now, though I'd really like to use SRTM 3 arc second data. I've seen that it has been done, but no idea how. But for now I can't even get off the ground with the basics. If anyone can help, I'd appreciate it.

NachtPiloten

December 26th, 2023, 08:09

If we can make two maritime focused terrains. One off the coast of France and southern England and the other Norway to do some anti shipping convoy stuff. The first should not be too tough and a good place to start. There were some old websites that had info. This would motivate me to make some ju88 a4s, a17 etc...

gecko

December 26th, 2023, 08:56

Do you have any info on how to make it work? I can't make any deals until I can at least get he tools to work! I have two areas at the top of my list. I think you will like the second one. The first also has room for anti-shipping Ju 88s in significant roles, though in my planned project, they would probably be AI only, at least at first.

rbp71854

December 26th, 2023, 15:50

Iam so sorry that I can't help. Iam afraid that all my data and bat tools seem to be long gone from the hard drives. My knowledge base and memory on developing new theaters is lost, especially the details on the use of the bat files.:banghead:
My age and a mild case of COVID last year has decreased my retention of old memories and knowledge.

This is a shot in the dark kind of, but has anyone here ever secretly dabbled in terrain creation, or are any of the legends from the past who have done it still lurking around here on occasion?

I've had Global Mapper for a while and thought I'd finally use some down time around the holidays to see if I could understand something of it. I've downloaded the tutorials on it I could find, but I have yet to successfully use the ers2tiff.exe tool. I always get the error message: Failed to load any input file. It might be something with the way I'm exporting data, or or something with the command line parameters I'm using. This is with the SRTM 30 arc second data for now, though I'd really like to use SRTM 3 arc second data. I've seen that it has been done, but no idea how. But for now I can't even get off the ground with the basics. If anyone can help, I'd appreciate it.

Pat Pattle

December 26th, 2023, 22:57

Hi Daniel,

Do you have Odins tutorials?

https://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php/102023-New-theater-tutorial-Step-by-Step-for-CFS3?highlight=odin

https://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php/101359-TIFFs-files-for-CFS3-landclasses?highlight=odin

https://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php/94321-Eastern-Front-1943?highlight=odin

NachtPiloten

December 27th, 2023, 05:15

I have a win xp machine that has all the tools loaded plus a few tutorials. I never went further than gathering the necessary files to start. But that being said, with the planes waiting skins I do have some time the next few weeks once I return from a short trip. I will let you know what progress I make in the next week or so.

gecko

December 28th, 2023, 10:01

sdsbolt

December 28th, 2023, 10:18

gecko

December 28th, 2023, 10:37

Yes, I have been saving without negative elevations per tutorial. What I meant was all sea level and formerly below sea level areas.

rbp71854

December 29th, 2023, 07:54

@Bob, that's too bad, but I understand. Does exporting a .bil file but finding that everything at sea level elevation or below has been turned white instead of blue ring a bell? I'm assuming this may be my problem and why the tools aren't working, but I don't know.

Sorry doesn't ring a bell. I can't even recall the process of exporting a .bil file. I did find this string of texts that I had with Global Mapper, which may be useful for you in the future. I also found a file folder with how to generate ai pathing for roads, railroads, and waterways. It also includes a revised MS sdk on Vector Data Processing dated 9/4/2011. Let me know if you want this file folder.
92781

NachtPiloten

December 31st, 2023, 08:42

Found this while i was setting up the theater generation tools.....

sdsbolt

December 31st, 2023, 09:04

not going through whole process but ers2tiff seems to work using the tutorial area (Azores) and Gtopo30 dem info. Obviously thats not the desired level of detail

gecko

January 2nd, 2024, 12:09

@Bob, thanks! I am interested in literally every bit of useful material for any stage of the process.

@Ted, no, I don't have that one. I'll take a look soon.

@Steve, where is your dem data from? There seem to be a lot of versions of even the same resolution data out there, I wonder if what I have used is not compatible for some reason. If I can successfully replicate what you have done, that would be a big step forward from where I am.

NachtPiloten

January 2nd, 2024, 12:34

What is the maximum theater size? I measured the default map in mission builder and found a figure of about 1260 nm square. From USGS you can get very detailed data. I have an account and the url is EarthExplorer (usgs.gov) (https://earthexplorer.usgs.gov/)
They have several levels of detail down to like 3 arc. Seems very easy to get the files you need.

sdsbolt

January 2nd, 2024, 15:52

@Steve, where is your dem data from? There seem to be a lot of versions of even the same resolution data out there, I wonder if what I have used is not compatible for some reason. If I can successfully replicate what you have done, that would be a big step forward from where I am.

http://www.webgis.com/terr_world.html

for some reason I cant d/l the srtm30 or srtm3 data . Getting a 404 error.

NachtPiloten

January 2nd, 2024, 15:59

NachtPiloten

January 2nd, 2024, 16:01

http://www.webgis.com/terr_world.html

for some reason I cant d/l the srtm30 or srtm3 data . Getting a 404 error.

same here - but if you go to what I found it works.....

sdsbolt

January 2nd, 2024, 16:15

thanks Ted that may be useful.

Ever check out the GM link to 1 arc second data? May be a little rich for cfs3 :dizzy:

gecko

January 2nd, 2024, 21:51

Yeah, I downloaded some 1 arc sec data too. I agree it is probably too much to actually look good in CFS3. I think 3 arc sec is the sweet spot if it can be made to work.

sdsbolt

January 3rd, 2024, 02:40

yeah 3 arc seconds data looks great

unfortunately I have reached the max # of .bil exports I'm allowed on the trial version of GM . Wasn't aware of that hard cap.

gecko

January 3rd, 2024, 05:58

Bummer!:banghead:

Were you able to successfully convert anything other than Gtopo30?

NachtPiloten

January 3rd, 2024, 07:02

I have an older copy of GM from 2008, I think. Will see if I can get it to work again. I use Google Earth to map out two areas. I now need to be sure the areas are square for CFS3, 1835 km per side. Once that is done and I can fire up GM...well see. If you have suggestions as to placement or area to be covered let me know.

rbp71854

January 3rd, 2024, 07:55

Daniel and others interested. The following is a zip with files on creating vector pathing that I did for the Hawaii portion of Rising Sun.92821

gecko

January 3rd, 2024, 09:26

Excellent, thanks Bob!

sdsbolt

January 3rd, 2024, 13:25

Were you able to successfully convert anything other than Gtopo30?

no, I was starting to look at that when I hit the GM max export limit which happen to be only 4 times :banghead:

sdsbolt

January 5th, 2024, 15:36

I have a small victory in that I can use Microdem to create the .bil that ers2tiff will recognize. I have only tried with srtm30 data. I dont have photoshop so I cannot create
a landclass tiff that the tools will recognize. Not sure if there is another way.

mongoose

January 5th, 2024, 19:43

rbp71854

January 6th, 2024, 08:27

I dont have photoshop so I cannot create
a landclass tiff that the tools will recognize. Not sure if there is another way.

I may have used Corel PaintShop Photo Pro for Tiff creations. :dizzy:

gecko

January 6th, 2024, 11:18

Having not gotten far enough to have a tiff to work with, I was assuming other programs could do the job too?

hairyspin

January 6th, 2024, 12:18

Paint.NET works with and saves as .tiff files. It's also free. I'm a Photoshop user myself (very old version), but sometimes Paint.NET gets me out of a hole.

https://www.getpaint.net/

sdsbolt

January 6th, 2024, 16:14

thanks for the tiff export suggestions guys. Ive tried with a few programs but tiff2lcf.exe wont load them. Back in the day Martin Wright found it would only work with tiff created by photoshop. Not sure if it has changed since then.

Pat Pattle

January 6th, 2024, 22:40

Doesn't it need to be a 32bit tiff? I seem to remember that from somewhere.

MajorMagee

January 7th, 2024, 02:19

Yes, 32 bit is 8 bit for each channel of RGB and Alpha.

sdsbolt

January 7th, 2024, 04:43

heres the test map if anybody can covert to 32bit tiff that fits needed description. Needs to be 768x768 and colors must stay pure green and pure blue with no transition

gecko

January 7th, 2024, 07:04

Looks like conversion to jpg caused some artifacts and it isn't pure green and blue. What was the original file?

NachtPiloten

January 7th, 2024, 07:20

MajorMagee

January 7th, 2024, 09:36

Try this one.

92863

NachtPiloten

January 7th, 2024, 09:37

Spoke to the developer and he sent me the link, thanks!!!

sdsbolt

January 7th, 2024, 11:58

Thank you Andy, that worked! Only small problem was a few extra colors (blue-green and black) got added to the texture. Most likely its because I shared original as a jpeg. I am able to work around the few extra colors by adding a few more terrain types for now. Thank you again.

sdsbolt

January 7th, 2024, 12:06

Spoke to the developer and he sent me the link, thanks!!!

You can use Microdem but if you already have a copy of Global Mapper I would probably stick with that. GM seems easier to use and more robust. Microdem seems to crash easier and can be fussy about the data it uses. My issues with Microdem may be due to my inexperience and I am certainly thankful to the developers for this program.

We also have a tutorial on using GM to create mesh which makes things easier.

sdsbolt

January 7th, 2024, 16:56

no water yet but there is some mesh

sdsbolt

January 9th, 2024, 15:18

just testing the water tools by making a big pool

Pat Pattle

January 10th, 2024, 03:24

I'm very impressed with the progress! :applause:

rbp71854

January 10th, 2024, 07:13

Well done, you are well on your way to creating a new theater of operations.:jump:

sdsbolt

January 14th, 2024, 05:13

islands in the test theater. One small error in the theater desciptor caused me days of confusion. Still plenty of problem areas.

One cool thing I notice is that the only DEM tool you need these days is QGIS which is free and has a good amount of support tutorials. Microdem and Global Mapper are nice tools but not neccesary.

Still not sure if there is a freeware program that can create the 32bit landclass TIFF that tiff2lcf will recognize ???

Frosty

January 14th, 2024, 05:18

I really have no idea how to do this but I am impressed anyway!! :biggrin-new:

sdsbolt

January 14th, 2024, 07:31

thanks Joost, I feel like anyone can do with the updated tools and info. I have no clue how pioneers like Martin, Ed and Bob managed it years ago .

Hope to test with srtm3 data next week

sdsbolt

January 15th, 2024, 04:36

first run with srtm3 mesh and it's certainly an improvement. I will play with the numbers and see if get even more detail but I am happy thus far.

gecko

January 15th, 2024, 06:38

Wow Steve, you've really made some progress! And without global mapper too! I've had less time than I thought but I'm hoping to pick it up again.

sixstrings5859

January 18th, 2024, 00:50

Outstanding progress ! Thanks for all the work !

Pat Pattle

January 18th, 2024, 06:34

Well done, you are well on your way to creating a new theater of operations.:jump:

Bob, in the RS install are a few theatres "under construction", were any of those ever started?

https://i.imgur.com/aBHYqlc.jpg

There are tantalising alt_map images in the folders!

https://i.imgur.com/Yu3p9Nz.png

Nice to see your still around, even as an observer and to encourage others.

Edit - there are a number of Terrain folders which include data, are these actual theatres?

https://i.imgur.com/8NbTz4q.jpg

Flamingskull5000

January 18th, 2024, 07:42

I've never gotten PTO Rising Sun to run to my satisfaction, so I stay in old Solomons PTO to get my Pacific fix. This looks very exciting!

rbp71854

January 18th, 2024, 08:05

Bob, in the RS install are a few theatres "under construction", were any of those ever started?

https://i.imgur.com/aBHYqlc.jpg

There are tantalising alt_map images in the folders!

Nice to see your still around, even as an observer and to encourage others.

Edit - there are a number of Terrain folders which include data, are these actual theatres?

Yes all the theaters were started and were at different levels of completion. Pearl Harbor was the most complete. The Sino portion I spent most of the time and effort flushing that out with airfields, water, cities, and I spent a considerable amount of time working the Formosa infrastructure.

I am not sure my most uptodate revision was published, it was sent to be released but not sure that it was.

Pity I tried to get someone to take over and continue the effort but to no avail. The vast majority of my data is lost with only a few random files and folders left.

Pat Pattle

January 18th, 2024, 08:19

Pity I tried to get someone to take over and continue the effort but to no avail.

I've spent a couple of hours installing the files to make a standalone Sino install. It's nearly there and once up and running will be taking a close look at what needs doing to maybe take it forward. I can see how many hours have already gone into it, amazing!

Cheers, Clive

rbp71854

January 18th, 2024, 12:45

I've spent a couple of hours installing the files to make a standalone Sino install. It's nearly there and once up and running will be taking a close look at what needs doing to maybe take it forward. I can see how many hours have already gone into it, amazing!

Cheers, Clive

That's very promising. There are a lot of items that people created and contributed to the theater. Somewhere in the sino install you will find the Temple/Shrine that you created as well.

This is a screenshot of my sino addon airfield folder. Let me know if it matches with your install.
92946

rbp71854

January 18th, 2024, 13:18

The folowing photos should show if you have the most complete sino update I did. I like Global Mapper because I could place topos and city maps onto the terrain and insert them into the global layer.
92947929489294992950929519295292953

Clive here is the global layer csv that I have as most uptodate. Iam vey happy that you and others may want to continue on with this effort. Feel free to modify and improve my initial efforts.

sdsbolt

January 18th, 2024, 16:13

tried different setting on mesh creation tools but still getting roughly same level of detail in game . Mesh take longer to generate so its possible my CFS3 settings just cant display the improvement.

gecko

January 19th, 2024, 01:05

I wonder if the meshbuilderbudgets.xml needs adjusted for the more detailed mesh?

MajorMagee

January 19th, 2024, 10:49

I spent a lot of time a couple of years ago, and found that I could never get the finer mesh to display right. It has to do with some hard coded LOD function, so at certain distances it just reverts to the default.

sdsbolt

January 20th, 2024, 02:15

I wonder if the meshbuilderbudgets.xml needs adjusted for the more detailed mesh?

maybe, but I don't know how it works?

MajorMagee

January 20th, 2024, 02:24

I'd forgotten that it was altitude dependent, and related to using AnKor's Shaders.

https://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php/129171-New-Meshbuilder-Budget?p=1300494&viewfull=1#post1300494

gecko

January 20th, 2024, 07:16

This I believe was only a lighting issue, and is fixed in a version of the shaders I am testing.

MajorMagee

January 20th, 2024, 07:41

Great news!

sdsbolt

January 20th, 2024, 12:55

Just roughing in different landclasses with MW LCF_View . One could spend a lot of time trying to get a good look.

sdsbolt

January 21st, 2024, 02:14

same, but with JB scenery instead of stock

rbp71854

January 21st, 2024, 07:52

That is looking really really great Steve.

sdsbolt

January 21st, 2024, 15:52

That is looking really really great Steve.

thanks! and thank you for the build info you kept for all these years

rbp71854

January 22nd, 2024, 07:34

thanks! and thank you for the build info you kept for all these years

Iam afraid that most of my dem data and bat files are lost. I have been trying to use Disk Drill to recover more data but so far not much success.

I have found a photo of GM screenshot of terrain creation
93031

and some photos of flattening of elevation that you may find that you need to do.
9303293033

rbp71854

January 22nd, 2024, 17:08

Following is a zip file of my global mapper favorites for creation of Rising Sun. The urls include historical maps, topos, etc and articles.

Clive especially the Perry-Castaneda Library Collection was very helpful in creating China.

Steve You will also find info of the Azores if you are still creating that theater.

I have tested the zip file and it will create a folder of urls that you will be able to use. There some dead urls that probably don't exist any more or have changed.

sdsbolt

January 23rd, 2024, 04:05

Steve You will also find info of the Azores if you are still creating that theater.

thank you I will look at that as I have some interest. I probably won't develop this theater any further as I was only using it to test the terrain tools.

sdsbolt

February 8th, 2024, 09:59

a go with a smallish map to see if I learned anything

mongoose

February 9th, 2024, 07:23

Seems a lot of painstaking work.

sdsbolt

February 9th, 2024, 14:41

Seems a lot of painstaking work.

this part is easy. water shape can be a bit of work.

rbp71854

February 10th, 2024, 07:27

this part is easy. water shape can be a bit of work.

Yea, an understatement.

Careful with your wrist too many mouse clicks will cause damage.:banghead:

If you have a pen use that rather than the mouse.

sdsbolt

February 22nd, 2024, 16:24

too many mouse clicks :dizzy:

NachtPiloten

February 23rd, 2024, 06:40

Good work - where is this?

rbp71854

February 23rd, 2024, 07:16

Gosh that is really looking great. Save some clicks for the railroads, roads ai pathing.:biggrin-new:

Ted and you are very much on your way with creating some special theaters.:applause:

sdsbolt

February 24th, 2024, 02:36

Good work - where is this?

Baltic Sea

sixstrings5859

February 24th, 2024, 04:35

All i can say is WOW !!!

mongoose

February 26th, 2024, 14:58

While we're on this topic I'll add my 2 cents worth. IF anyone really wants to develop some terrains, perhaps overlapping ones could be made , which, together with other folders, such as missions, could be switched by batch files or similar apps, such as the ETO eras were done. IF that switching is possible, then in that case:-

1. Norwegian occupation, convoy attacks, BC raids against German warships, and if possible NJ activity in the Jutland/Kiel area. Map to go from N. England, Scotland and the Shetland Islands, Norway, (as far south to the latitude of Kiel and then as far North from there)

2. A latitude covering only as far South as the Northern Alps and the as far North as possible, Longitude from about Paris to as far East as possible. This would then cover more of the East, maybe up to the partition of Poland. Good for BC and 8th USAAF raids into Hungary, as well as late Nazi-USSR action.

3. The proposed Eastern Front map.

Doesn't MAW cover all the rest?

rbp71854

February 26th, 2024, 16:05

Based on my experience with Rising Sun, Solomons and ETO. I recommend concentrating on one theater to completion before adding additional theaters to the project.

Take little bites not the whole hog. There is more work and manhours involved than meets the eye putting together one of these theaters.

Based on what I know and remember now, if I was starting out working on the Rising Sun I would take one theater of operation and completly flesh it out before moving on to the next one.

Cheers

NachtPiloten

February 27th, 2024, 06:05

Yes making theaters is so time consuming. First you spend quite a bit of time getting the terrain files form some provider USGS maybe. The Bay of Biscay needs 166 files, the eastern front, over 300. No little task here. Then it is making the theater files with Global Mapper, and other software. That is the easy part. Then you need to make an image file with multiple layers for each landclass type. Such as grass, marsh, crops and towns, deciduous forest and the like. If that works, roads and other parts. So, my musing about making more than one theater is my wish list. I have spent a bit of time downloading vegetation maps, topo's, city and town locations, and I am not done yet. I really enjoy this as it is new and demanding, but life is busy. Oh, did I mention that cfs3 math is well a bit different! If you have the time, are willing to learn from failure, and just like a challenge then the more the merrier.

I am going to make a complete Bay of Biscay theater and if I survive that who knows.

Slava Ukraini

mongoose

February 27th, 2024, 07:11

So I think I understand that you both are saying the same thing? I was thinking that my suggestions overlapped the original CFS3 theatre and that original part could still be used with only the new parts added. Does it work like that? Is therer any chance that one of the new AI programs can help in some of the tasks?

NachtPiloten

February 27th, 2024, 09:05

I would think that AI could if one knew how to use it.....The over lap is there, but you are limited to what you can use. Parts of the original global layer can be applied or even the global layer from ETO or TOW. But the altitudes are not always the same so fiddling with each entry is required. The difficult piece for me is the colorization of the image used for the landclass. You need to map a version of what you see here. This requires an image with 12-13 layers one for each color arranged so that the colors are showing the correct vegetation and land use. It is just a time-consuming effort. Once this is done than it is roads and vectors, mosaic layers etc. Look this fun but involved. It would be better, I think that folks working on terrain could get together and piece out various aspects of the work, but who knows we all want different areas. I will make what I can. may not be a functional as the original, but it will serve its purpose (I hope)

rbp71854

February 27th, 2024, 10:27

I am sure whatever theaters the pair of you (Ted & Steve) develop will be of high quality.

rbp71854

February 28th, 2024, 15:16

Found this while i was setting up the theater generation tools.....

Ted, sorry I missed your question regarding CFS_Terrain-Scratchpad. No did not that have that xls worksheet. Thank you for sharing. I used CG Lat-Lon calculator when dong RS.

As I have finally got a replacement liquid cooler for my Gaming Tower and got it running I am finding all kinds of goodies buried in the remaining ssds.

I would be curious if you get the same results using this tool.

NachtPiloten

February 29th, 2024, 05:57

Ted, sorry I missed your question regarding CFS_Terrain-Scratchpad. No did not that have that xls worksheet. Thank you for sharing. I used CG Lat-Lon calculator when dong RS.

As I have finally got a replacement liquid cooler for my Gaming Tower and got it running I am finding all kinds of goodies buried in the remaining ssds.

I would be curious if you get the same results using this tool.

I will take a look at this. Hope you find the lost treasures.....

Pat Pattle

February 29th, 2024, 09:55

rbp71854

February 29th, 2024, 12:31

Just a thought..do the theatres have to be a certain size or can they be made smaller if need be, or how small can they be?
Just thinking of tactical maps rather than strategic. I've had in mind to have a go at this myself but to concentrate on a small area like Singapore or the Falkland Islands even.

Yes, they can be of smaller size. HOWEVER, they must be a power of 2, up to but no larger than 1835008 meters.

Tactical operations would be a great concept.

mongoose

February 29th, 2024, 13:19

So WRT multiple theatres; tactical or otherwise, what folders would have to be swapped in and out? Batch exe file possible? I have yet to mater JSGME but I assume that would be better?

sdsbolt

March 2nd, 2024, 10:36

Not much new. Just climbing over Warsaw.

NachtPiloten

March 2nd, 2024, 10:39

Finally learned how to have the different scenery display and such. Will move to shorelines and cities.

rbp71854

March 2nd, 2024, 17:48

Ted you have made quick work putting together your theater.

Got my tower finished up with the addition of some hardware and updating my drivers. Not much luck in finding any development work other than what I have already shared.

I have started on recreating PNG, have the bil completed, and have manually entered the coordinates for the topos and generated an overlay. Also made a start on manually creating the shorelines of the 1945 army topos. I will take that slow, don't want to mess up my wrist again.

sdsbolt

March 3rd, 2024, 02:38

I have started on recreating PNG, have the bil completed, and have manually entered the coordinates for the topos and generated an overlay. Also made a start on manually creating the shorelines of the 1945 army topos. I will take that slow, don't want to mess up my wrist again.

you're a pro :encouragement:

rbp71854

March 3rd, 2024, 07:34

you're a pro :encouragement:

Not by a stretch of the imagination.:biggrin-new:

Wasn't looking forward to creating one vertex at a time of the shorelines, remembered the ability to convert areas to lines. So will use the world shape files and then move and add vertexes to match the topos.

rbp71854

March 3rd, 2024, 15:58

Help Please.

My winxp where my globalmapper 13. is installed does not have internet.

Line work.
There is a beginning vertice (green) and at the other end an end vertice (red). Is there a command to join those two vertice so that you have a combined line?

I can't remember how its done and can't find the command.

Thank you.

sdsbolt

March 4th, 2024, 04:14

Question on Globalmapper

sorry, been working with Qgis so I am not familiar with GM

NachtPiloten

March 5th, 2024, 08:03

rbp71854

March 5th, 2024, 09:42

I know that there is a way to combine the vertices, will need to see what I can find. Why are you making the shorelines manually when GM will create the shp file that you then can edit? I know that some editing is required to get rivers and lakes to display properly, but GM will make the shorelines for you and then you just check for errors. Still a lot of clicking with the mouse. Found this

Reshaping Area and Line Features (bluemarblegeo.com) (https://www.bluemarblegeo.com/knowledgebase/global-mapper-22/modify/Changing_the_Shape_of_Area_and_Line_Features.htm#: ~:text=Select%20two%20or%20more%20vertices%2C%20th en%20find%20this,vertex%20that%20merges%20all%20th e%20selected%20vertices%20together.)

Found that the vertices will snap together. To confirm you can convert the line to an area. If successful converting to an area, then the line is connected. Then you just convert back to a line.

I am doing a combination to create the shorelines. (manually and using Global shp files.) I am trying to match the shorelines of the 1945 US Army Topo maps.

I agree it makes life easier downloading the shp files and editing them.

Thank you for the link. I will try that, don't know if that is possible in GM13.*

sdsbolt

March 8th, 2024, 10:47

Ran into a bit of roadblock adding the terrain mos files . Easy enough to follow Bob's example and generate the mos tiles but I can't get them to show up in game.

rbp71854

March 8th, 2024, 12:38

Steve, do you mean the vector mos files for roads, rivers, railroads and for ai pathing of roads and railroads? If yes, have you checked your texturelist.txt files and the .cfg for any problems.

PS: Here is a thought, I am relearning CFS3, do you need to delete the usel(sic) and generate a new one or is it he .zx file?

Ran into a bit of roadblock adding the terrain mos files . Easy enough to follow Bob's example and generate the mos tiles but I can't get them to show up in game.

sdsbolt

March 9th, 2024, 07:13

yeah, talking about generating vector mos files. So far I have just tried simple shapefiles for rivers and major_roads (no railroads yet). The combined .mos files are generated with correct prefixes called in theater descriptor. I put them in uncompressed zip file within terrains folder. They just dont show in game.

I always delete .zx files and have tried deleting uisel.xml

I will keep checking my texture lists and bat files for some error .

Thank you

NachtPiloten

March 9th, 2024, 07:55

A view of Northwest Spain on the coast. All original CFS3 textures.

rbp71854

March 9th, 2024, 08:20

Steve are you including the 3 shape files?

shapefile – the name of the .shp file (e.g. vectordata.shp). Shapefiles are actually a set of three files: a .shp file containing the geometry, and .shx file containing indexes into the .shp file, and a .dbf file containing attribute data.

yeah, talking about generating vector mos files. So far I have just tried simple shapefiles for rivers and major_roads (no railroads yet). The combined .mos files are generated with correct prefixes called in theater descriptor. I put them in uncompressed zip file within terrains folder. They just dont show in game.

I always delete .zx files and have tried deleting uisel.xml

I will keep checking my texture lists and bat files for some error .

Thank you

rbp71854

March 9th, 2024, 08:30

Here is another area to look at. How about the theater .xml file. Should like the same but with different entries.

<Terrain OriginLat="N21.03" OriginLon="W156.7" WinterSeason="10,3,5.0,6.0" QuadTreeRootDim="4194304" LandClassField="hawaii.lcf" PreCompiledTexturePrefix="hawaii" WaterPrefix="hawaii" MeshLibrary="hawaiiMeshLibrary.xml" VectorMosaicGridSize="16384" VectorMosaicPrefix="hawaii" LinkedSceneryLinePatternDatabase="hawaii_LinkedSceneryLinePatterns.xml" MeshBuilderBudgets="hawaii_MeshBuilderBudgets.xml" PreCompiledTextureBudget="PreCompiledTextureBudgets.xml" SceneryObjectDatabase="hawaii_SceneryObjects.xml" VectorDataLiningDatabase="hawaii_VectorDataLinings.xml"/>

sdsbolt

March 9th, 2024, 10:39

rbp71854,

yeah , all 3 file formats are in the folder.

The ai pathing vector files dont affect the vector mos files do they?

rbp71854

March 9th, 2024, 12:25

Steve I not sure they do, but how would the mos files be placed in the theater without them? I always ran them all together as one process then placed them in the Hawaii theater at the same time.

It can be so frustrating sometimes, the process is so unforgiving to less than perfection. There are times when I am scratching my head for days trying to get something accomplished:banghead:. WE will get there one way or the other.
cheers
Bob

rbp71854,

yeah , all 3 file formats are in the folder.

The ai pathing vector files dont affect the vector mos files do they?

sdsbolt

March 10th, 2024, 11:52

A view of Northwest Spain on the coast. All original CFS3 textures.

looks almost ready to sink some ships :encouragement:

sdsbolt

March 11th, 2024, 09:40

It can be so frustrating sometimes, the process is so unforgiving to less than perfection. There are times when I am scratching my head for days trying to get something accomplished:banghead:. WE will get there one way or the other.
cheers
Bob

thanks Bob. I believe I have it working. Had to change tp2mos x and y bounds to default theater size even though I am making a smaller theater :mixed-smiley-010:

rbp71854

March 11th, 2024, 11:57

thanks Bob. I believe I have it working. Had to change tp2mos x and y bounds to default theater size even though I am making a smaller theater :mixed-smiley-010:

That's great news!:applause:

When you say default theater size do you mean 1835km? If so, that's a great heads up as my theater size for PNG is going to be 1792km.

sdsbolt

March 11th, 2024, 14:49

When you say default theater size do you mean 1835km? If so, that's a great heads up as my theater size for PNG is going to be 1792km.

I'm using the extents from your Hawaii example

tp2mos hawaii_river.tp hawaii_tex.cfg N21.03 W156.7 -786432 -786432 786432 786432 16384 hawaii_vectorriver 0.05 vectordetailtexture.dds

NachtPiloten

March 12th, 2024, 07:09

Had a few minutes earlier today and ran two *.bil files. One with 3 arc and the other with 30 arc. The 3 arc has a pixel size of 19200, the 30 a pixel of 1920. The 3 arc takes hours to process while the 30 takes seconds. I did this since the Norway/Artic Convoy theater I want to make, I can only find 30 arc data. Has anyone found 3 arc? I am using earth explorer from the USGS site. I would think if they don't have it no one will..... well may need to look at the European Space Agencey site.....

Also, something has been gnawing at me, with a pixel size of 1920 for the bil file, you need an image stride of 768 to give you a dimension in meters of about 1440 km (which is the approximate size of my theater). What does all this mean. If image stride controls detail, a smaller stride would maybe reveal greater detail. But, with a bil with a pixel count of 19200 your image stride would be small than 256 pixel figure on a factor of 10. My question is does any of this matter? It does when you begin making the tiff files and the .msh files. Original CFS3 had about 3100 msh files. This is with a 6 factor in the code to generate the msh. Increasing this number exponentially increases the number of .msh files. So what to do? Not sure at all. I imagine that the clarity and detail of the terrain is impacted by these data. Flat coastal areas may not be impacted that much, but terrain with hills, cliffs, and such might. I am going to experiment a bit to see what happens by altering some of these parameters.

Any comments welcome....

rbp71854

March 12th, 2024, 12:53

Interesting Ted, I believe you are in an area that few have ventured before. Your results will be interesting to hear.

I have looked and have found no 3 arc data. Sorry. It looks like the Shuttle didn't or couldn't capture that data. I imagine the government has the data but may be withholding for some reason.

MajorMagee

March 12th, 2024, 18:00

I'm not familiar with the terrain data file format, but if it can be turned into graphics data I have a copy of Gigapixel AI that can upscale it to a higher resolution.

sdsbolt

March 13th, 2024, 17:15

Srtm30 is a lot better than nothing

NachtPiloten

March 15th, 2024, 05:12

Drove to Baltimore on Wednesday and had some time to think in traffic and such....When are they every going to finish the road work around DC???

We have been told to make our terrains square, by selecting a perfectly square region for our terrain data source. Ok, I get that as the LCF in the original game is 1536 x 1536 when you view it with Martain Wright's viewer and save the image. When you look at the mission builder map you get an image of 1876 x 1844 ok square enough, I guess. Well, that is not the issue I have been pondering for a few days (I really need to drive shorter distances). When you look at the MB map and go to the corners of the map don't ask me why I did this you get approximately 55.3.15N and 7.3.30W for the top left corner and 41.0.2N and 14.5.7E for the bottom right. This means the bottom left is 41.0.2N by 7.3.30W and the top right 55.3.15N and 14.5.7E. Place these dandy coordinates into a longitude/latitude distance calculator and at the top you get a top width of 1336.2km and at the bottom 1777.6, and a height of 1590km. Ok I am a statistician and who know the saying - statistics don't lie but statisticians do. Call me crazy but the original CFS3 dimensions are not square at all. We have a N/S degree span of about 14 degrees and a E/W of about 21 degrees. And yes, the distances are dependent on location so the km measures will vary as you use different coordinates. But that aside what did they do?

I used the data here on the ARC 30 maps and the pixels are of course not square. You could then make it square of course by reducing the dimensions say E/W (in kms) to get a square. Now this is not as crazy as it sounds as we all know a projection maps distort the land masses greatly the further you move N/S. If there is a way to resize the bil file to become a square you reduce the E/W distortion and make a square LCF and MB map. We could use the original CFS3 dimensions as a guide and see what we can do. Now I have no idea how to resize a bil file yet. Why is all of this important, the locations of objects are affected, and the distances traveled when you use a projection map - things are just not right and maybe that is why MS resized the maps. Of course, this really is less important the smaller your theater is. Also, I imagine that with a projection map your mountains and rivers are distorted too causing your terrain to look odd.

Enough of me pondering the inner workings of map dimensions and such. If anyone cares to wade in on this conversation I would appreciate it. I did run this by a novice and she seemed to understand the issue as she said oh the aspect ratios are not consistent....out of the mouth a babes. Have a great day. :banghead:

rbp71854

March 15th, 2024, 05:27

Oh my, I don't think I will wade into that.

Have you noticed that as you approach the edges of the theater, your ac will just freeze before getting to the very edge of the theater? You can have an airfield but you will never takeoff from it.:biggrin-new:

NachtPiloten

March 15th, 2024, 11:55

The image is the original cfs3 map on USGS earth explorer. Here is the rub, the box is essentially square in physical dimensions (km side length) but degrees it has approximately 14 degrees latitude range and 21 degrees longitude range but appears square as measured in distance along the x/y axis (thank you Mercator projection I think). Pixel size will be vastly different, but the map will be square in km. Now the question is what to do. The limits of map size are in km 1860 according to the information we have, not degrees. Not that any of this makes anything more clear, but thought I toss it out. Oh, the original LCF is 1536 by 1536 which is a factor of 256. Now, I will use ARC 30 data since it is must easier to process, to experiment.

mongoose

March 16th, 2024, 09:35

So, projecting on G Earth, one could approximate this from approx the Swiss German boarder, and Brittany, all of the UK, up to approx N63° and E15° Below very rough idea!

93472

NachtPiloten

March 16th, 2024, 11:41

That is way too large in latitudes. A Mercator map really distorts E/W and some N/S, more of course more the closer you get the poles. I have found a way to resize the bil file but ran out of time to see if it will work as I want. I did make an original CFS3 theater using the lat/long from mission builder. I resized the files with what I have learned and they are drop dead the same as the originals. MS did not use a square map from the USGS data but did some type of manipulation to get the square we are being told we need. When you resize the files as MS must have, the E/W distortion all but goes away. If I can figure out how to resize the files and they are still useful (programs run) then I will share my steps.

mongoose

March 16th, 2024, 12:13

Ah OK. So looking at your projection of the CFS3 map it could be shifted North to the Swiss German border and to just West of Glasgow and Wales? How much of Norway would that get?

rbp71854

March 16th, 2024, 12:55

Looking forward to the possibilities of your results. The investigation and effort is very much appreciated. Larger theaters would be most welcome.

gecko

March 17th, 2024, 22:21

Here is a related question, but perhaps slightly OT, is there a way to get CFS3 to model the curvature of the earth? I have been playing around with settings for the horizon and have determined conclusively that the CFS3 map is flat. This poses some difficulties when working with the horizon, particularly at high altitude.

As an aside, I had really hoped to be more involved with this, but I am quite impressed with how you guys are running with it! Hopefully I can catch up at some point.

NachtPiloten

March 18th, 2024, 05:29

From everything that I have read cfs3 only uses a flat earth (hmm seems that the flat earthers were in power at MS). I was told a long time ago that the reason many sims use a flat earth is at the time of their development, to have gunner stations etc., the code was not available to use a curved earth. How true that was (is) who knows. Today and/or tomorrow, I am going to try to duplicate the original cfs3 theater using what I have tinkered with the see what is what (that's a lot of whats). :mixed-smiley-010:

NachtPiloten

March 18th, 2024, 05:41

Ah OK. So looking at your projection of the CFS3 map it could be shifted North to the Swiss German border and to just West of Glasgow and Wales? How much of Norway would that get?
Something like this. The original cfs3 theater was not 1860 km by 1860km. So maybe a little larger, not much.

rbp71854

March 18th, 2024, 06:16

Just a cautionary tale. With that location/layout you may not be able to fly to Berlin. There is a dead space at some distance from the edges of the theater where the aircraft just freeze. I do not what that distance is as I never measured it while doing RS.

Something like this. The original cfs3 theater was not 1860 km by 1860km. So maybe a little larger, not much.

gecko

March 18th, 2024, 06:37

And to add to that consideration, my work with the horizon has expanded the distance you can see significantly. I'm presently working with a radius of 150 km for viewing distance which seems to be the max setting for other sims as well. CFS3 is actually capable of much more, but most PC's can't handle it if you add any amount of weather rendered at those distances. The point being, a larger margin around the edges of the map becomes less usable if you don't want to see the rather ugly way CFS3 renders the area off the edge of the map.

NachtPiloten

March 18th, 2024, 07:04

This may explain that when you go into mission builder you can move well into the green area beyond the borders of the map. I have not tried to see how far this extends but may be explained by the fact the original CFS3 theater is about 1779 km E/W and 1556 N/S and that CFS3 is hard coded to have a useable area of 1860 by 1860 and the original designers choose not to maximize the area for some type of buffer or other considerations. I would really love it if the folks who did this back in the day were around, just for a few questions.

Idea, it may be that the 1860 by 1860 are the maximum possible km dimensions and are square. The idea of square really may only apply to the pixel units for the LCF (1536 pixels square and the data in the ERS file). The MB maps are barely not square as the high altitude one is about 469 by 461, the medium 938 by 922 and the low is 1876 by 1844. Nothing like going into a rat hole.....

Bam!!!! Revelation - If you select a square area in pixels from a map, the km distance will not be equal N/S and E/W by the nature of the Mercator projection (unless you are right at the equator and your area is small), but by selecting a rectangle and then adjusting for latitude (when altering the projection to a Mercator style Global Mapper lets to pick a latitude as a reference and then resizes the bil file by this which with practice) will yield a square bil in pixels. This is what MS did. Now just to duplicate this and to get it to work.

Enough of this already need to get back to that research paper I was writing (but this is more interesting...)

mongoose

March 18th, 2024, 07:57

Something like this. The original cfs3 theater was not 1860 km by 1860km. So maybe a little larger, not much.

I would move it East just skirting Cornwall and Scotland to W 5*45' and North a bit with South part at South to N47*35'. This way more of Norway and more East of Berlin to include more of the old German Eastern border. This allows most TOW ops, Russian convoy ops as well as ops against the pocket battleships in the Fjords. Unfortunately not North enough for Narvik, unless a mini theatre is done for all of Norway; a lot for just a few actions.

rbp71854

March 18th, 2024, 08:46

Yes, this is how I had to tweak to get my PNG theater at 17920.

Started at N-0.025 W142.5, S-15 E157.75

Many test bils later later:

Ended at N-0.0675 W142.5 S-15 E157.4325

DatasetHeader Begin
Version = "6.0"
Name = "Buka_Bougainville_PNG_SRTM30.ers"
LastUpdated = Thu Mar 14 21:55:56 GMT 2024
DataFile = "Buka_Bougainville_PNG_SRTM30.bil"
DataSetType = ERStorage
DataType = Raster
ByteOrder = LSBFirst
CoordinateSpace Begin
Datum = "WGS84"
Projection = "GEODETIC"
CoordinateType = EN
Rotation = 0:0:0.0
CoordinateSpace End
RasterInfo Begin
CellType = Unsigned16BitInteger
CellInfo Begin
Xdimension = 0.00083328679702562
Ydimension = 0.00083328679702562
CellInfo End
NrOfLines = 17920
NrOfCellsPerLine = 17920
RegistrationCoord Begin
Eastings = 142.50000000000000000
Northings = -0.06750000000000000
RegistrationCoord End
NrOfBands = 1
RasterInfo End
DatasetHeader End

Bam!!!! Revelation - If you select a square area in pixels from a map, the km distance will not be equal N/S and E/W by the nature of the Mercator projection (unless you are right at the equator and your area is small), but by selecting a rectangle and then adjusting for latitude (when altering the projection to a Mercator style Global Mapper lets to pick a latitude as a reference and then resizes the bil file by this which with practice) will yield a square bil in pixels. This is what MS did. Now just to duplicate this and to get it to work.

rbp71854

March 18th, 2024, 12:00

Finished creating ocean and islands, ready now to start producing some exported files for theater creation.

93489

sdsbolt

March 19th, 2024, 04:28

Finished creating ocean and islands, ready now to start producing some exported files for theater creation.

1800km doesnt go very far in the PTO :dizzy:

NachtPiloten

March 19th, 2024, 05:06

But, if you make a rectangle when selecting the area you want to make and have the short side 1800km, depending where you are on the globe you can make the other side (E/W) longer, say for argument sake 2000km. When you apply the Mercator projection and correct for latitude it will make the map square (if you have the correct aspect ratio to start with) but the area you cover will be the same (in degree coverage and km) and eliminate some of the stretching the Mercator projection introduces. Now as I said all of this depends where you are on the globe, the closer you are to the equator the less distortion. I found a source that shows how much the Mercator projection distorts for a given latitude. GM automatically resizes your maps as a function of latitude when you resize using the Mercator option. Last night I remade the original CFS3 theater (14 degrees N/S and and 21 degrees E/W just like the original) resized and made the msh files. The pixel size is larger than the original CFS3 theater, so resizing the LCF will need to happen.

Need to install and see what happens later today. If all goes well then it is a matter of some math (trig -did I ever tell you that I hate trig) to resize the maps as needed. I had to edit the ers file but it ran as expected. Hopefully I will be able to have success and we can have as close to an 1860 by 1860 theater as possible.

Regardless you are correct 1860 km is not much in the Pacific. But when you model Midway for instance, the distances were not great since the range of the aircraft from the carriers was quite limited, what about 500 mile radius SBD and the Aichi 400 miles? Now flying form Tinian to Japan 2500 km so no joy there.

NachtPiloten

March 21st, 2024, 12:20

I replicated the original CFS3 theater.

I first made a bil file in GM with the original lat/long 55N 7W, 40N 14W. as you see it is not square at all.
I then opened it up and using the projection feature of GM, click on the wrench icon, I then looked at the options in the top drop down and selected Mercator. In the options box that appears there is an option to enter the original latitude ( may have the name incorrect) I enter 48, since this is the mid-way between 55 and 40.
Saved a workspace file.
unloaded all data. Then opened the saved workspace and made new bil. The data in now in meters not degrees.
Opened up both ers files that were made. Took the data from the first ers file and replaced the data in the new ers and saved. This tells the tools we use form MS that all the dimensions are in degrees. The pixels were not square or the same they were 2536 and 2524, just made then both 2560 in the revised ers file. I figured that this slight difference would not matter in a test.
Made the msh files using the data from the spread sheet, I chose 6 by 6 to make 36 tiff files. This yielded me the same exact number of msh files MS had.
Made a new landclass file in photoshop by resizing the 2560 by 2560 from the bmp file we need to make, small resizing if you think about it about a 1% resizing from 2530 to 2560 and 1.4% for the other. We can fix this as we fiddle with the map selection in the first step.
zipped the files for the msh (keep the original shorelines and water as a test) Fired up the sim and flew in southern France to the coast and reached the shoreline exactly as the map in the game indicated. The elevation is off for the airbases and stuff but to be expected.

So all in all a success so far. This showed to my simple mind that we can select non-square maps areas, use GM to make them square, fiddle with the data in the ers files and boom - it works:pop4:. I need to put this aside for a few days as my paint shop appears to be reopened so I need to finish a few small bits and pieces with some planes.:biggrin-new:

rbp71854

March 21st, 2024, 14:39

That's good news Ted.

Iam afraid I am encountering difficulties getting valid tiff files. I get the ers2tiff to produce the files but the tiffs are invalid and when run tiff2mesh I get min 0 max 0 . Flat terrain when placed in the theater.

I have to set the elevation of the area not islands to zero elevation otherwise those areas end up with 55,000 meter elevation. Go figure that. Never recall seeing that before.

I need to put it away for a couple of days as my daughter will be here for the weekend for father daughter time. :)

sdsbolt

March 27th, 2024, 10:41

pluggin away at the slow parts

NachtPiloten

March 27th, 2024, 14:31

You making your own landclass file from the bmp images?

NachtPiloten

March 28th, 2024, 09:31

I would move it East just skirting Cornwall and Scotland to W 5*45' and North a bit with South part at South to N47*35'. This way more of Norway and more East of Berlin to include more of the old German Eastern border. This allows most TOW ops, Russian convoy ops as well as ops against the pocket battleships in the Fjords. Unfortunately not North enough for Narvik, unless a mini theatre is done for all of Norway; a lot for just a few actions.

The issue you have right now is the arc 3 data stops at the 60th parallel. The Norway theater I want to have will be arc30 - just dedicated to convoys in the North Sea. If I use arc3 data, I can get Lister (Luster) Norway where the Germans had a NJG base and almost all of southern France. Still fiddling around to understand the process.

sdsbolt

March 28th, 2024, 13:15

Yeah Ted , I had to make an lcf

rbp71854

March 29th, 2024, 15:40

Anybody have a guess on how many mesh files are created? Right now it is taking about 60 seconds to create 2 mesh files. Slow boat to the PNG.

I thinking that if it is about 5,000 files, then I am looking at a 41 hour run time.

or did you reduce your columns and rows in the ers file by a factor of 10, say like 17920 reduced tp 1792.

Steve is there a reason not to use Google Earth for the landclass tiles?

sdsbolt

March 30th, 2024, 04:44

Steve is there a reason not to use Google Earth for the landclass tiles?

It just didn't occur to me to do it that way

I used Modis landcover data from Earth Explorer instead

rbp71854

March 30th, 2024, 07:51

Well editing the .ers file to a lower amount of columns is a no go. Moved the mesh creation to an idle computer, so I don't really care how long it takes as long as it is a viable mesh.
I can now go back and work on lakes rivers and tweak shorelines.

Oh, figured out why I couldn't get any viable tiff for mesh creation. If you are at The Tower its the West, if you are at The Bull, Shooters Hill in Woolwich its the East.

Changing a W to a E in the ers2tiff command line made the difference.

gecko

March 31st, 2024, 11:37

rbp71854

April 2nd, 2024, 15:15

Here is the situation. I have different types of water in the theater. Rivers, Lakes, Ocean. I want to be able to have different textures for each of them so that they are not the same color and shade. To compound the situation I want the ability to have coral type water around some of the islands. (Maybe can create an island around the islands and call it coral ocean)

I know that the make water command line allows multiple pol files to be processed at the same time.

Can someone remind me what files drive the textures of the water.

BTW, finding that in many instances I am relearning the "how to do's" that I have forgotten since 2011.

sdsbolt

April 3rd, 2024, 06:31

NachtPiloten

April 3rd, 2024, 06:45

It just didn't occur to me to do it that way

I used Modis landcover data from Earth Explorer instead

Wow- Modis landcover---need to check that out.

NachtPiloten

April 3rd, 2024, 06:58

Two questions Ted,

1. Were you able to do this with 3 arc second data?

2. Can you post the instructions you fed to the ers2tiff tool?

Yes the 3arc data is what I plan to use for everything below 60 degrees latitude. I followed the tutorial by Odin on the entries. Now the only deviation I have made is when I enter the last two numbers that correspond to the scale in pixels that the theater requires. If have used the 6 and 6 numbers as they produce the exact same number of msh files as the original CFS has. The original CFS had a LCF or 1536 by 1536 which is 256 times 6, so I see the relationship. That is why in Odin's tutorial 3 by 3 is used since 768 is 3 times 256. The 3arc files have much larger pixel counts as the theater grows. I did once try a 30 by 30 put the computer (very fast one) made over 10k files and I stopped it since this seemed unusual. I am not sure what these numbers have to do with detail and what the texture ultimately looks like, but I suspect to capitalize on the 3arc files larger numbers will be needed.

I am trying to fix up my JU88 for John so we can release these soon. Once that is done will go back to terrain stuff.

NachtPiloten

April 3rd, 2024, 07:02

It just didn't occur to me to do it that way

I used Modis landcover data from Earth Explorer instead

What files did you download?

rbp71854

April 3rd, 2024, 08:48

sorry, I not aware if the tools can make different types of water?? I know Dan has created different water colors for the defualt map but I have no clue how he did it.

I did not know you could use multiple pol files in the command line. That is good to know

Water
As with shorelines, the preferred way to create water shape data is to run a batch file which, in turn, runs a data processing executable and then bundles the results in a ZIP file.

Usage: make_water.bat (theaterminlon theaterminlat theatermaxlon theatermaxlat) polyfile1 polyfile2 ...

Inputs to the water batch file include the coordinates of the theater, as well as one or more .POL files which specify the water polygons.

If you prefer, you can also use the water production tool directly.

Usage: water.exe resolution epsilon outputdir (theaterminlon theaterminlat theatermaxlon theatermaxlat) polyfile1 polyfile2 ...

rbp71854

April 3rd, 2024, 09:44

I did once try a 30 by 30 put the computer (very fast one) made over 10k files and I stopped it since this seemed unusual. I am not sure what these numbers have to do with detail and what the texture ultimately looks like, but I suspect to capitalize on the 3arc files larger numbers will be needed.

Ted
I am presently running 30x30 srtm files creating mesh files. 17920 columns and rows/pixel dimension. 1720 km theater.

Chose not to run make mesh on my tower computer.
108 hours so far on a desktop, which I would consider slow. Averaging 2 files created per minute. Presently about halfway through 512. Have 256 and 128 files to go having already created 4096, 2048, and 1024.

gecko

April 3rd, 2024, 11:09

Ted
I am presently running 30x30 srtm files creating mesh files. 17920 columns and rows/pixel dimension. 1720 km theater.

Chose not to run make mesh on my tower computer.
108 hours so far on a desktop, which I would consider slow. Averaging 2 files created per minute. Presently about halfway through 512. Have 256 and 128 files to go having already created 4096, 2048, and 1024.

Would this influence the resolution of the lcf file? I have heard of one person creating a much higher resolution lcf for WOFF, and I think that's a huge step forward in terms of the overall appearance of the terrain. Having landclasses in roughly 1 km x 1 km blocks seems a bit dated.

For water, cfs3h2o.dds is the key. It is a direct map of the entire theater, but it is flipped vertically. Note that it is not rotated 180 degrees, but flipped. It was very tedious to map out the shorelines pixel by pixel, and I got a huge help from a guy over at the WOFF forum who did probably 75% of that part. I think it would be a lot easier if you're able to export your water shapes to a texture sheet somehow. I used a 4096x4096 map, but I think higher might allow you to put in some decent reef detail. According to Ankor, even though the file size would be very large, the way it is done in CFS3 is efficient and will not cause a huge performance hit. I'd love to see what could be done in 16384 resolution! I would think it might be possible to paint an individual body of water or island coastline on a smaller sheet and then put the different pieces into a single large map at the appropriate places. Or are you suggesting that it might be possible to get CFS3 to recognize more than one texture each covering a section of the map.

The 16 h2od_XX.dds files are not used for color anymore, but now are used only for creating the bump map for the waves.

EDIT: here's a link to the water colors I did for the stock map: https://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php/118088-CFS3-New-Water-Colors-Europe-zip

gecko

April 3rd, 2024, 11:29

Also note that water color is heavily affected by the color of the sky and clouds as it is in real life. I am currently working on bringing big improvements in this area to CFS3.

rbp71854

April 3rd, 2024, 12:51

Or are you suggesting that it might be possible to get CFS3 to recognize more than one texture each covering a section of the map.

The 16 h2od_XX.dds files are not used for color anymore, but now are used only for creating the bump map for the waves.

I am at a loss when it comes to landclass, it was a dead stop for me when doing RS as I do not have adobe photoshop, but have coral. I am hoping in the future someone will come to my rescue on png redux when the time comes to put together the lcf.

Yes Dan my thought is that there may be a method to have separate dds files for ocean, coral ocean, and lakes. Presently we process the lake and ocean water as two pol files as they are areas and at the same time. I think they use the same dds file.

Rivers being vectors are processed with railroads and roads.
Rivers have their own separate texture sheet from ocean water.

Do you know specifically which dds file is for the ocean? Update figured it was the h2o.dds.

What are the 16 h20d_xx files you mention?

Thank you for the info.

In further thinking I have not tried running an area vector in the the vector data process normally used for line type vectors. hmmm maybe maybe not.

sdsbolt

April 4th, 2024, 04:07

Ted

What files did you download?

EarthExplorer/nasa lpdaac collection/modis landcover ver6.1
I used the 2002/2003 data as its about the resolution I wanted but newer data is much sharper

NachtPiloten

April 4th, 2024, 06:24

I was going to make a couple of theaters with different values for the last two numbers and see if the differences were noticeable. Glad to see that I was not the only one making a 30 by 30 theater. Once we figure this out this will mean so much to the old game.

There is one more data point that interests me in the ers2tiff process and it is this one ers2tiff *.ers N38.1875 W28.1875 256 1024 1974 CFS3Europe -393216 -393216 3 3. As you know when you change (value in red Stride Check as per the CFS3 Theater Scratchpad) this to a lower value it alters the dimensions displayed for the theater. But for the life of me, I really do not know what this value does as far as creating msh files. I question this value since it does alter the theater size and with a 1024 value the dimensions in km is not equal to the size of the theater. Lowering it to 256 in some cases gets the size to be similar to what the theater is but not exact. Steve mentioned to be that he believes that a lower value sharpens up the scenery. What is interesting the scratchpad has a value of 2 as the smallest values that can be used. What I am getting to understand (or not) is this, if you want all these numbers to work, we may need to select our theaters in km and find a stride check that gives us a value that agrees with the formula in the new theater kit supplied by Odin. We do as rbp does a use the larger values for the last two numbers.....This may explain the size of the cfs3 theater being smaller than the max allowable and the original lcf being 1536 pixels. Oh the mystery.... I am going to spend some time in the Theater scratchpad to see what I can learn. Anyone know who Robert Bruce is, his name appears as you scroll over some cells....

NachtPiloten

April 4th, 2024, 06:53

Robert Bruce - I fear his cancer diagnosis was terminal as his last activity was in 2008. :( Found this though Virtual Terrains (scene-explore.blogspot.com) (https://scene-explore.blogspot.com/) Really detailed reading. Wish his attached files could be found.

NachtPiloten

April 4th, 2024, 07:50

It seems that to get the math to work in CFS3, picking the size of the theater in km is key to have the dimensions to sync with the math in the tiff2ers. In an earlier post the original CFS3 theater is not 1835, but 1572 or so in km. If you enter this into the spreadsheet main tab and you enter in the original CFS3 data (position of theater etc you reproduce the data that is in the tiff2ers code, that is the dim data ers2tiff *.ers N38.1875 W28.1875 256 1024 1974 CFS3Europe -393216 -393216 3 3. Double these and you get 786432, which is the data in the formulas Robert Bruce developed. This goes along with my earlier posts on the fact that the original CFS3 is 14 degrees N/S and 21 degrees E/W and to make it square you can change this in Global mapper. When you do this you will get data in meters which I hope is in sync with all of this. Bottom line, I think I am getting the math and how to enter the stride check data (the 1024 number). Will need to take more time than I can give it this week but may get it yet. Please look at the terrain scratchpad.

rbp71854

April 5th, 2024, 10:37

Before I began running the 30x30 srtm Dems, I ran some Worldwide - GTOPO30 Format Dems with Resolution: ~900 m, 30 arc-sec
With the gotopo the columns and rows were 1792 and ended up with 7 7 in the ERS2tiff command line. Notice the resolution of the gotopo. I believe the 30x30 maybe 90 meter resolution. therefore the 17920 columns and rows and 70 70.

Presently over 6 days running mesh, still in 510. Probably got another week. Just hope no loss of power next week with eclipse and thunderstorms forecasted all next week.

gecko

April 5th, 2024, 23:48

I am at a loss when it comes to landclass, it was a dead stop for me when doing RS as I do not have adobe photoshop, but have coral. I am hoping in the future someone will come to my rescue on png redux when the time comes to put together the lcf.

Yes Dan my thought is that there may be a method to have separate dds files for ocean, coral ocean, and lakes. Presently we process the lake and ocean water as two pol files as they are areas and at the same time. I think they use the same dds file.

Rivers being vectors are processed with railroads and roads.
Rivers have their own separate texture sheet from ocean water.

Do you know specifically which dds file is for the ocean? Update figured it was the h2o.dds.

What are the 16 h20d_xx files you mention?

Thank you for the info.

In further thinking I have not tried running an area vector in the the vector data process normally used for line type vectors. hmmm maybe maybe not.

There are 16 h20d_xx.dds in the effects/fxtextures folder. In stock CFS3 they controlled the wave animation and influenced water color. With Ankor's shaders they no longer influence color, which is now entirely determined by cfs3h2o.dds and environment reflections from the sky.

I have been curious if the river vectors could be repurposed. For instance on the stock map, many large and important rivers are represented by the river vector and appear only as a minor stream. On the one hand a more limited use of the river vector for only those truly minor streams might be appropriate, or the river texture could possibly be repainted as an alternate shoreline without surf and the vector placed along the shoreline. That way we could still have ocean surf for ocean shorelines, but also a lake shore/river bank textures for calmer bodies of water.

I have experimented with using the alpha channel to mix the local color of the water with the shore texture instead of trying to paint water the onto the shoreline. I then added a white wave foam texture on top for the surf. It then fits with any location, color-wise, but it would be great to be able to limit surf to ocean shorelines while still having a shoreline texture for the rest of the bodies of water.
https://i.imgur.com/MbeHJ4f.jpeg

MajorMagee

April 6th, 2024, 05:01

From my AnKor's Shaders Developer Notes.

*** 5. Water Mods ***

CFS3 default water animation files are located in the effects\fxtextures folder and are named h2od_01.dds through h2od_16.dds

With AnKors shaders the color for these files is rendered using the cfs3h2o.dds file for the local water color information. The cfs3h2o.dds file is a vertically inverted rendering of the entire theater so each pixel's tint covers a fairly large area of sea surface shading. Edits to cfs3h2o.dds can create local effects like muddy river water exiting a delta into the sea, sandy shoals and coral reefs.

The BaseOpacity parameter controls how easily you can see through the water animation to the texture underneath. This can easily go wrong if the underlying textures don't look like a sea bed.

The reflectiveness of the clouds and sky on the surface is controlled by the ReflectLevel parameter. The sun sparkle on the surface is controlled by the SpecularPower and SpecilarNormDivisor parameters.

The AddFoam parameter in SeaWater.fx is used to determine the grey scale level that will be interpreted as foam. The animations files need to have their brightness level distribution adjusted to provide discrete areas for foam patches to appear and dissapear as the wave crest passes by. The boundry of the textures need to wrap the opposide edges to avoid having seams appear. A somewhat randomized pattern of foam patches helps hide repeating patterns as the sea surface is tiled with these textures. Using low numbers creates an interesting effet that will make the sea surface appear to be covered in sea ice, high numbers will remove all of the foam patterns.

An optional set of water animation files set up to display the sea foam are provided with this package, but you may use the game's originals if you prefer without any conflict other than the difference in wave pattern and foam appearance.

It turns out that the alpha channel in the effects\fxtextures\h20d_##.dds files has to be pretty finely textured, and the color variations have to be subtle (no harsh shade transitions) for it to bump map realistically.

The CFS3 Default Water Detail Texture Size is 5 and the SeaWater.fx settings in this package are preset to match. Using a different texture size will change the appearance of the wave dimensions unless you adjust the WaveBump and WaveScale values in SeaWater.fx to match.

sdsbolt

April 6th, 2024, 07:52

the river texture could possibly be repainted as an alternate shoreline without surf and the vector placed along the shoreline

yeah rivers are a bit of a problem but your idea may work. Is there a river shoreline with alpha channel to be borrowed from somewhere?

rbp71854

April 6th, 2024, 08:04

In the past I have always processed the lake water and ocean water together. In the future it may be possible to do them separately. In RS Sino major rivers were also processed with the lakes and ocean as area vectors.

In GlobalMapper I have a shoreline layer and a coastline layer. The coastline layer vector define the ocean, harbors, and large rivers.(its a continuous line) The shoreline layer defines those areas that you want to have surf. (It doesn't have to be a continuous line around your water features.)

An interesting thing I found while searching the files I found a texture called reef which I have a vague memory that I was going to add a reef in certain areas of Pearl by means of the vector process by re-doing railroads, roads, rivers, etc.

Thanks Andy for that info. I wish I knew more about Ankor's add on. It would be ideal to integrate that into the build, or maybe best to add after. I don't know I just don't have the capability right now to understand it and include it.

River line vector textures have the shoreline as part of the river texture. It should be possible that a shoreline texture for lakes and major rivers can be processed in the vector processing with rr, roads, etc. Just use the vector line(shoreline) of the lake and river area vectors.

sdsbolt

April 6th, 2024, 08:31

yeah rivers are a bit of a problem but your idea may work. Is there a river shoreline with alpha channel to be borrowed from somewhere?

oh wait, I remember the water mask will end up on top of this new vector shoreline creating a sharp water edge unlike the existing shoreline which lays on top of the water mask. Maybe someone knows a way around this??

rbp71854

April 7th, 2024, 15:51

hmmm. Maybe if the vector is placed landside the water line on a second line. Will have to experiment on how much away from the water line and the width of the vector. Not sure how to generate that second line easily without having to do it one point at a time.....yet

oh wait, I remember the water mask will end up on top of this new vector shoreline creating a sharp water edge unlike the existing shoreline which lays on top of the water mask. Maybe someone knows a way around this??

rbp71854

April 11th, 2024, 17:22

Oh my word! gold! I can't believe I find this global mapper workfile on a hard drive which was part of a broken bootable raid and sitting in a drawer.

There are some missing elements to the file such as the topos, and dems used to create RS China.

The file includes streams, rivers, lakes, interior islands, shorrelines, ocean water, airfield and installations gl entries, etc. There is enough elements there that one could use to it further development if necessary in the future.

sdsbolt

April 13th, 2024, 02:55

that could save you a lot of work Bob

rbp71854

April 13th, 2024, 14:03

Yes Steve, China is basically finished, however it might come in handing if at some point if one wanted to add additional roads, railroad track, etc.

I don't know how this 30x30 1 arc mesh is going to work out for the PNG. Its still being processed after over 14 1/2 days. Still in 0256 resolution with 0128 mesh files still to go.

I have started to look at alternative dems just in case. If required it will mean redoing most of the shapefiles already finished.

So in the mean time I am working on squadron and aircraft lists with airfield locations.

sdsbolt

April 13th, 2024, 16:17

I don't know how this 30x30 1 arc mesh is going to work out for the PNG.

you should be able to use the same DEM and run ers2tiff with a lower resolution . I'm sure that will run a lot faster. Of course your terrain will have less definition.

sdsbolt

April 13th, 2024, 16:21

I don't know how this 30x30 1 arc mesh is going to work out for the PNG.

also why 30x30? I just create 1 big tiff file. I might create 2x2 or 4x4 for a big theater if needed.

rbp71854

April 13th, 2024, 17:13

I did create a large tiff file by exporting the dems then exporting a bil file from the tiff. I did this so I could make sure that the non-land area was at zero elevation.

This is the ers2tiff that I am running:

ers2tiff *.ers S7.53375 E149.9688 256 1024 4441 PNG -917504 -917504 70 70

You are suggesting I change the resolution by decreasing the 1024 to 512?

If so it will be interesting to compare the quality of the terrain.

Thanks for the suggestions.

you should be able to use the same DEM and run ers2tiff with a lower resolution . I'm sure that will run a lot faster. Of course your terrain will have less definition.

sdsbolt

April 13th, 2024, 17:43

gecko

April 14th, 2024, 10:13

yeah rivers are a bit of a problem but your idea may work. Is there a river shoreline with alpha channel to be borrowed from somewhere?

This is an old concept WIP I tried out a while ago. Not great, but it gives the idea.

93923

rbp71854

April 14th, 2024, 14:54

ok, its looks like you are already using 1024 resolution. I wouldn't go lower than that.

i would try ers2tiff *.ers S7.53375 E149.9688 1792 1024 4441 PNG -917504 -917504 1 1

if that works well you can get better resolution with ers2tiff *.ers S7.53375 E149.9688 3584 512 4441 PNG -917504 -917504 1 1

or you can go even higher at 256 or 128

Steve

Thanks Steve for helping me out of this predicament. You nudged me in the right direction.

Presently running ers2tiff *.ers S7.53375 E149.9688 1792 1024 4441 png -917504 -917504 7 7

Processed through the night and most of this day, had to stop; before completing as I realized that my command line had capital png and my theater is set up with lower case. Also note that the theater needs to be divided by 256 so that the last 2 integers have to be 7 in this theater.

Thanks again.
Bob

sdsbolt

April 14th, 2024, 15:31

Also note that the theater needs to be divided by 256 so that the last 2 integers have to be 7 in this theater.

then I assume I am not understanding CFS3 terrain math. My thinking is 1792*1024*1=1835008 . 1835008/256=7168

rbp71854

April 14th, 2024, 16:30

The revised png theater is 1792km. I was going on the scratchpad.xls calcs. I know the srtm 30x30 .bil file had 17920 columns and rows which gave the 70 70 as the last 2 numbers in the ers2tiff command line. With the 1792 number I divided by 256 to get the 7 7 numbers, with 7 x 7 tiff files. We will see when I get the mesh into the theater.

I did try to run the command lines that you typed and received out of bounds error with the ers2tiff.

then I assume I am not understanding CFS3 terrain math. My thinking is 1792*1024*1=1835008 . 1835008/256=7168

sdsbolt

April 15th, 2024, 03:55

sounds good Bob

sdsbolt

April 15th, 2024, 03:57

This is an old concept WIP I tried out a while ago. Not great, but it gives the idea.

thats what I imagine it would look like minus the detail

rbp71854

April 16th, 2024, 05:26

sounds good Bob

Well my fuzzy math didn't work:(

sdsbolt

April 16th, 2024, 06:44

Well my fuzzy math didn't work:(

if you get real stuck you can send me the .bil, .ers.... etc and I'll see if I can get past it

rbp71854

April 16th, 2024, 12:00

Thank you for the generous offer of your time to help me out. I really appreciate it.

I was able to pull myself out of the mud, it all boils down to my loss of knowledge. In the Terrains/terrdata folder is a file named png.xml or in the case of stock cfs3, cfs3Europe.xml. That file calls out the necessary file for the terrain files. I failed to change the theater origin coordinates. Once that was done the mesh looks good with gotopo30 (I reverted back to gotopo dems as I knew I was successful in the past with them.) . I am going to back track now and run srtm dems.

Thanks again Steve.

if you get real stuck you can send me the .bil, .ers.... etc and I'll see if I can get past it

rbp71854

April 16th, 2024, 13:49

The srtm dems are outstanding in the theater. Having trouble right now getting fraps to snap a pic.

Even that the bil had 17920 columns and rows the following is the ers2tiff command line I used:
ers2tiff *.ers S7.53375 E149.9688 256 1024 4441 png -917504 -917504 7 7

I found some old screenshots of sino-china. This is were I hope to be heading with PNG. Right now I can not remember how I did the roads, railroads, airfields by using globalmapper's capabilities.

Frosty

April 16th, 2024, 23:12

Guys, I think it's a lot of hocus pocus you are doing here but I find it nevertheless intriguing and the result wonderful!! :encouragement:

I hope there will be some tutorial/documentation in the end so others can have a go at this. Please don't let your knowledge disappear, as has happened so often in the past!

sixstrings5859

April 17th, 2024, 07:36

Keep up the good work ! Excited to see work still being done for CFS3 . Not dead yet. Still my favorite WW II air combat sim after all these years. Regards,Scott

FireStorm II

April 17th, 2024, 14:01

I'll have to agree with Frosty!
You guys lost me this time.

I recently found in my d/l files, released in 2015, an 860mb download called:
-> CFS3_PTO_RS_sino-beta-1.1_update <-
I ran it, modded the batch file and, oh yes, TERRAIN :)
94062 94063 94064 94065

rbp71854

April 17th, 2024, 15:35

That's great. I am afraid I have lost that update from my hard drive. It would be wonderful if you can upload that and make it available again. Clive is working on publishing a standalone Sino-China theater by separating the RS files.
So what ever you can do would be appreciated.
Bob

I'll have to agree with Frosty!
You guys lost me this time.

I recently found in my d/l files, released in 2015, an 860mb download called:
-> CFS3_PTO_RS_sino-beta-1.1_update <-
I ran it, modded the batch file and, oh yes, TERRAIN :)
94062 94063 94064 94065

FireStorm II

April 19th, 2024, 09:34

I will definitely have to get this to you and Clive. I thought of 'CFS3 Other Add-ons\Betas'
but it seems that it's over the 715 mb limit, but I'll find some way.

mongoose

April 19th, 2024, 13:32

mediafire?

rbp71854

April 19th, 2024, 16:32

That's great news! Much appreciated. That update was available to the test team and unfortunately I believe it was never made available to the community. So your copy is gold that has been kept safely in your possession. Yes mediafire and dropbox are some hosting or file sharing websites.

sdsbolt

April 20th, 2024, 02:44

Anyone know how the hydpoly_bridges.txt, hydlines_bridges.txt, etc work with mkglobe.exe? Looks like a bunch of coordinates for what I assume are bridges but I can find no documentation.

rbp71854

April 20th, 2024, 07:55

Unknown territory. I haven't a clue. Must be a shortcut to add bridges to the global layer rather than single entries into the gl file

You also have bridgedesc.txt which may be a description of the different bridges. ??????

Anyone know how the hydpoly_bridges.txt, hydlines_bridges.txt, etc work with mkglobe.exe? Looks like a bunch of coordinates for what I assume are bridges but I can find no documentation.

FireStorm II

April 20th, 2024, 11:17

O.K. Mediafire:

https://www.mediafire.com/file/qriho1sakh7bzps/CFS3_PTO_RS_sino-beta-1.1_update.zip/file

I believe this link will only last two weeks....and I'm wondering where I
might have gotten my copy...maybe an old grizzly bear...

rbp71854

April 20th, 2024, 13:31

Thank you so much. Yup Grizz was in charge of testing and helping put together the packages. He really contributed a lot to this community.

Thanks again. There is a massive amount of work that will be helpful in adding to the RS theaters.

O.K. Mediafire:

https://www.mediafire.com/file/qriho1sakh7bzps/CFS3_PTO_RS_sino-beta-1.1_update.zip/file

I believe this link will only last two weeks....and I'm wondering where I
might have gotten my copy...maybe an old grizzly bear...

rbp71854

April 21st, 2024, 08:50

Steve what was your kb size of you water .pol file? I am creating ~2300kb file.

Assuming I am correct in my command line parameters I am having trouble making water. I am wondering if there is a size limit to the water that can be created with one pol file.

I noticed in the RS Sino China I had broken up the ocean water into different areas. I do not remember the reason for doing that. I wish I still had those make-water .bat files:(

sdsbolt

April 22nd, 2024, 04:18

Bob,

my cfs3hyp.zip file is 1892kb while my .pol fil is 860kb .I made a smaller theater than yours and i simplified the water shapes.

I know the total coverage area can be larger than the cfs3 map as I once tested a simplified water mask that covered the stock area and then farther east. I am not sure if there is a limit to how complex(# of vertices) the shapes can be be??

rbp71854

April 22nd, 2024, 12:57

Thanks Steve for the info. Your words suggested that I simplify and smooth the vertices of the islands. I was still getting no errors of invalid geometry in qgis, but still not getting any water files. I started to delete minor islands and islands that I knew were out of the theater boundries. From 730 islands down to 384 islands. Finally got water files.

However water is still not showing up. I hate to ask, but what files are needed to be changed to make sure the water shows up?

Bob,

my cfs3hyp.zip file is 1892kb while my .pol fil is 860kb .I made a smaller theater than yours and i simplified the water shapes.

I know the total coverage area can be larger than the cfs3 map as I once tested a simplified water mask that covered the stock area and then farther east. I am not sure if there is a limit to how complex(# of vertices) the shapes can be be??

sdsbolt

April 22nd, 2024, 13:41

Yeah, now I remember I had to remove some small islands to get it to work.

As you probably know you have to put all your hyp and cell.idx files in a zipped archive named cfs3hyp.zip which is then placed in your terrains folder , replacing the old one. Delete cfs3hyp.zx if it exists. I dont compress cfs3hyp.zip but maybe you can? Cfs3 is pretty picky about the cfs3hyp.zip and hyl file name and locations unlike the terrain mesh files.

rbp71854

April 22nd, 2024, 19:37

Thanks Steve. Not compressing the zip file worked. 6 days running the make water .bat file. This probably would have been my last day of trying to get good water files. Probably would have put it away for a few weeks and clear my head.

Qgis was helpful in finding invalid geometries, although the Qgis fixing geometry process was hit or miss at times. In the end fixing manually in the shp file worked out the best. I guess I just was real lucky 12 years ago with not having the Qgis tools to verify validity of the shp files.

Yeah, now I remember I had to remove some small islands to get it to work.

As you probably know you have to put all your hyp and cell.idx files in a zipped archive named cfs3hyp.zip which is then placed in your terrains folder , replacing the old one. Delete cfs3hyp.zx if it exists. I dont compress cfs3hyp.zip but maybe you can? Cfs3 is pretty picky about the cfs3hyp.zip and hyl file name and locations unlike the terrain mesh files.