O.T. - Plumming question

[PRB]

I have a well that supplies water to the house. Pump in the well pumps water to a tank in the basement of the house. The pump cuts in when the pressure drops to 30 PSI, and cuts off when it reaches 50 PSI. I am experiencing what my Internet research is calling “short cycling.” When I run the water, from anywhere in the house, the pressure gauge at the tank drops quickly from 50 to 30 PSI. Quickly in this case means 15-20 seconds. Then the pump cuts in, and the pressure climbs up to 50 PSI in about 5 seconds. The pump then shuts off, and the pressure falls again over 20 seconds to 30, whereupon the pump kicks back on. And so on, as long as I have water running. Everything is stable when no water is running. This pressure fluctuation is also noticeable at the water taps in the house.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
I don’t understand how this can be. If there is no leak anywhere, what would cause the pressure to drop so quickly? If there were a leak, the water pressure would be dropping when the water was not running. The Internet site I was on says this could indicate a need to put air in the tank. Air in the water tank? Air is evidently used to stabilize pressure at the water taps across varying water pressure levels in the tank. But I don’t see any air connections on the water tank.
<o:p></o:p>
I’ll call in the expert help tomorrow! And I just had a new furnace installed too. Doing my part to stimulate the economy I guess!

[GT182]

Paul, it could be a bad foot valve, pressure gauge, or pump. I think yer gonna have to pull the line out of the well to check things out.

[PRB]

But if it was the foot valve, I would think I'd see pressure dropping when the water wasn't running. And if it was the pump, how would that explain the pressure dropping so quickly only when the pump is not running? A bad pressure gauge could explain all of this, maybe. What about the "air in the tank" theory I read about? That seems odd to me. I guess that's why I need a plummer!

[jmig]

Do you have a bladder type pressure tank? If the bladder develops a leak, you don't have the constant air pressure to keep the pressure up.

The bladder can't compensate for the lowering of the water and the pump will kick off and on constantly. When the water isn't running the pressure will stabilize.

[PRB]

I don't know if it's a bladder type. It's not indicated on the side of the tank anywhere. Sounds plausible though!

[OleBoy]

Generally the water goes through a central housing area. Mine being a Pump House. The water from the well passes by an inline tank (air tank/bladder) which has a filler stem just like a tire on a car. I can't recall the pressure in mine, but I have added air to a couple times over the years when the overall pressure falls.

Something else to check; Example: An air compressor has a pressure switch that regulates how long the pump runs to fill the tank. Same goes for your water pressure. On the main incoming feed there will be a small (about 3"x4") metal/plastic box that has power going to it. Turn off the power, remove the cover. You will see a relay, and a spring with a nut or screw on top. Turn this screw clockwise one turn and then turn the power back on. Fire up the water and check the pressure to see if it climbed up any.. A little?....try another turn clockwise.

If you don't notice the pressure getting any higher, or staying there, that switch could be bad.

[OleBoy]

If you could post a full view picture of your system it will make things easier (I hope) to explain

[Brian_Gladden]

Probably a your pressure tank. Mine was doing the same thing about a month and a half ago. Pump would run every five minutes or so. Just be aware that the pump relay isn't designed for that kind of duty cycle and it could burn out. Mine was just about fried so we had to change out the tank and the pump relay.

Like it was said above, if you have a bladder style tank, it's probably the tank causing the problem.

Brian

[OBIO]

Back when I was a kid, the water tank at my grandparents' house would become, as Dad called it, water logged. Too much water in the tank, not enough air to maintain pressure. So, we would have to attach a bicycle air pump to the tank and "we"..meaning ME...would have to spend 15 to 30 minutes pumping air into the tank. When the tank was "water logged", the pump would kick on and off, on and off.

OBIO

[Daveroo]

those systems...water from the well to a tank and then into the house have this comman problem..they get "water logged"...the airgap at the top of the pressure tank has been lost..shut the system down....drain the tank completely and let air get into it and refill..that should do it if its an older system..if newer then it may have a bladder in it that you can refill...if it wont refill..you need a new tank...


i was a plumber for 20 years and come from a family of plumbers dating to the 1920s...

[Moparmike]

Yup,
As mentioned, I'd suspect the tank too. Had that problem at the farm a couple years ago and it was the bladder in the tank that had slowly let it's air leak out. The schrader valve (air fitting like on a tire) had a slow leak that let it bleed down. We replaced the valve stem insert and it was good again. It could be a bad bladder too letting the air leak out though too...in that case it's time for a new tank.

If it's a bladder type tank, it'll have that valve on the top. If it's old enough to be a non-bladder tank, then just follows Dave's advice and drain the tank down a bit and get some air cushion back into it. I always hated our old non-bladder tank since it would eventually "jiggle" most of the air out from the pump vibration and it would do that short-cycle thing exactly as you're describing.

20psi is a good differential pressure (assuming your gauge is working) so I wouldn't suspect that the switch is bad, but that short cycling will burn the contacts real quick-like.

[PRB]

Thanks for all the good data! Where else can you go to get tips on the proper landing prcedures for a Republic F-105 Thunderchief, and on how to fix your plumbing? To say nothing of the latest fasion in high heel shoes..? :d

Well, here's a pic. I have no idea if it has a bladder in it. I don't see a schraeder valve anywhere. The fitting on the pressure gauge looks just like a tire pressure fill attachment, but it lets out water. I suppose I could let the water out that way. I also thought of shutting off the pump and running the kitchen faucet for a while. Even tried it, but the pressure reading went right to zero as soon as it passed about 20 PSI or so. This makes me suspect the pressure gauge itself. I'm going to let an expert look at it before I flood main engineering...

[Willy]

Interesting setup there P. Is that a filter system next to it? I had it in my head that you were living in town and had city water. Nothing like having your own well water unless the water just has a bad taste to it.

I'm like the others, betting that your air has leaked out of the tank.

[PRB]

Hi Willy,

Yep, that's a "water softener" to the left of the main tank. I had to put that thing in "bypass" for now because it runs a lot, and I'm tryig to run the pump as little as possible.

O'Fallon, MO is about 20 NM west of St. Louis. It's sort of "rural-ish"...

[OleBoy]

looks like filtration to the far left, softener next to the grey bladder. There has to be somewhere on that thing to add air (on top, or by the gauge) is the likely place. Is the grey tank rusty anywhere? A possible leak (weeping)

Something to remember; put all the tanks on a raised surface to minimize enclosed (out of sight) water contact.

Your's looks very similar to my Culligan Filtration system

[Willy]

"rural-ish"...

Sounds like where I'm at just outside the town limits of Dyer, TN. Some of us have county water and some of my neighbors have wells. When we first moved here, there was an open well in the backyard, but my father in law insisted on covering it up. I kind of wish we'd have left it alone.

[PRB]

looks like filtration to the far left, softener next to the grey bladder. There has to be somewhere on that thing to add air (on top, or by the gauge) is the likely place. Is the grey tank rusty anywhere? A possible leak (weeping) ...

So, the grey tank is the "bladder" everyone's been talking about? Interesting. The word bladder to me conveys a rubber thing. Still don't see an air fitting on it.

[OleBoy]

That's odd. I can clearly see the pressure gauge and the pressure switch on the side of the bladder tank. I'm beginning to think that the pressure might come from an inline pressurization method. Very odd

[yank51]

OK, everyone's right on the "water-logged" part. That appears to be just a standard galvanized tank without a bladder. Most bladder tanks are much smaller, (generally 10-20 gal. size) as they don't need to hold as much water to maintain the pressure properly. I also have a galvanized, about an 80 gallon size outside. It gets "water-logged" from time to time due to the pumps inability to put air back into the tank like it is supposed to (I do need a new well drilled, meaning a new pump, but...). What you need to do is shut the pump off, and start draining out the tank. You should have a relief fitting, either on the side (a smaller one, say 1/4 in, or a bigger allan key type on the tank top. Whatever you do, make sure you don't have pressure on (or much anyway) if you do it from the top. Just let the water run out until you get down quite a ways, then seal it back up (preferably with teflon tape). Turn on the pump and you should be good to go. Don't know why your pump is not putting air in with the water, but mines due to clay gummy soil down where my pump is. If I can get deeper (the new ell thing again), I should be alright then. Hope this helps....