This will be the demise of P3D

[jmig]

I have not used P3D since the day MSFS 2020 came out. The last time I used it was for a beta product with Milviz. It worked just fine. Since then I have been going thought the learning curve of MSFS.

Well today, I loaded up a new beta product to test. P3D loaded up through the splash screen then told me my brand new RTX 2070 GPS wasn't working for UNKNOWN reasons. Nothing has changed with my P3D setup since I last used it. I didn't even get to try and load the new beta.This happens way too often with P3D. Now, I will have to go through the trouble shooting process of deleting files and allowing P3D to rebuild them. I may have to run Repair and generally throw my hands up in frustration before I get it to work again.

I have been using MSFS daily since August 18th. Not once, has it crashed or balked. It just runs. Now, many of the planes suck, in my opinion, but that will be rectified when 3rd party aircraft hit the sim. I never flew FS9, FSX, or P3D default aircraft either.

If MSFS continues to work with all the hassle of P3D, that in my opinion will be the defining factor, not the pretty graphics. P3D will become the sim of the commercial outfits and military who can hire people to keep it running. The rest of us will migrate back into the loving arms of MS. Well, "loving" might be pushing it. :)

[expat]

Sorry to hear about this issue. Apart from an occassional OOM - usually because I have been running the sim for hours/days and switching views, gauges, aircraft in and out excessively all the while - my P3D v4.5 is mostly error free, certainly when compared with FSX for example.

[centuryseries]

I've had the opposite, although some crashes caused by tinkering with the file structure in MSFS, but P3D V5 runs very smoothly for me. I have had MSFS crash for seemingly no reason a few times.

I'm putting it down to old hardware, but we'll see. MSFS is leaps and bounds more impressive than P3D, but P3D does have many features you will never get in MSFS - like the IR cameras, weapons, submersibles etc

[jeansy]

I've had the opposite, although some crashes caused by tinkering with the file structure in MSFS, but P3D V5 runs very smoothly for me. I have had MSFS crash for seemingly no reason a few times.

I'm putting it down to old hardware, but we'll see. MSFS is leaps and bounds more impressive than P3D, but P3D does have many features you will never get in MSFS - like the IR cameras, weapons, submersibles etc

Im the same msfs just locks up the whole pc, after getting a rtx2080ti p3d is smooth as silk

Talking to a few devs msfs lacks the coding to do military systems, so for now ive got interest in it

Not to mention the lack of rotary and some ugly ground terrian

Sometimes its better the devil you know

[Scorch00]

I see myself eventually uninstalling V4.5. But not for a long time. My GTX 1080 has run it without issue. Although now that I've built it up considerably, It does lag out every once and awhile, but it's not crashed on me but maybe a handful of times in the 2 years I've had v4. I decided against jumping on the initial bandwagon of FS2020 knowing full well a sim as advanced as FS2020 is, there were bound to be things they were going to need to get worked out first. So I'm patiently waiting to see if I need to upgrade hardware to run it better than what they suggest etc. My initial thoughts were to get it installed on it's own SSD. So I'm holding off for now. I'm also still developing stuff for P3D in the meantime. 4.5 has always been stable for me. I was happy enough with it I didn't see the need to upgrade to V5.

[wombat666]

I'm not moving into another Microcrud 'Game' until the dust settles and we see just how (if at all) it handles decent add-ons.
Running both P3Dv4+ and P3Dv5 without any problems and plenty of decent additions at 4K with very satisfactory settings.
:pirate:

[Priller]

The rest of us will migrate back into the loving arms of MS. Well, "loving" might be pushing it. :)

"Loving" arms is indeed pushing it.:biggrin-new:

But indeed, MSFS is a whole new story. And on my rig, it works beautifully.

Then again, I also have P3Dv4.5, P3Dv5 and Il-2 CloD running on it. But I do think that MSFS will be the future. I don't see Lockheed-Martin continuing with P3D as a "commercial" sim. (I'm not using the word entertainment!!) I think they'll return to the flight training market.

This is of course just MHO.

Priller

[bazzar]

I'm wondering how long it will take people to realise exactly what MSFS is. It is a game. A very, very good game. The mere fact that XBox has a massive presence in the MSFS franchise now should tell you something. That is where MS would like you to go, not your PC.

Ever wondered why you can't and won't get P3D for XBox?

LM are not stupid people. They will hone that sim into something that shines. There are too many major players in the sim world invested in it, not to.

It is far too early to see where all of this will go but it will certainly not be the death of P3D. :engel016:

[TuFun]

Flight Simulator 2020 is expected to generate 3 billion in PC hardware sales!

Not going to happen with P3D.


The challenge of running the game in high quality should stimulate hardware sales and move around $3 billion worth of hardware in three years, according to market research firm Jon Peddie Research (JPR). The company made an estimate of how players will spend to run the game based on different user-profiles and also on the possibilities offered by the simulator. According to JPR, simulation enthusiasts tend to spend more and so the movement of money around the new Flight Simulator should be impressive.


Over the next three years, the company predicts that approximately $ 2.6 billion will be spent on specific hardware to run Flight Simulator to enhance the gaming experience. The bet takes into account the game's estimated sales of 2.7 million units of the simulator in the same period.


The company notes, however, that the value moved by Flight Simulator should be even higher over the entire product lifecycle. JPR also does not consider the numbers of the Xbox Game Pass, a PC subscription service. According to Ted Pollak, analyst at JPR, the reason for so much investment in Flight Simulator with the requirements of the simulator, where we will need a more powerful PC.


In addition to the fact that the basic components of PCs have to be more powerful and consequently more expensive, the company analyst also takes into account the additional hardware. According to Pollak, simulation enthusiasts often invest in additional equipment, including monitors and other devices, to ensure a more immersive experience.

https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/gamesflight-simulator-2020-is-expected-to-generate-3-billion-in-pc-hardware-sales.html

[bazzar]

We'll see...

Flow-on effect... P3D will also run better with improved hardware. Thanks MS.

:engel016:

[gaab]

It is far too early to see where all of this will go but it will certainly not be the death of P3D. :engel016:

And I intent to stay on P3D a very long time....

So we can still expect new aircrafts from you for P3D ? Caravelle may be, one day ;)

Gérard

[pilto von pilto]

Reply with quote function isnt working.

Gaab : Caravelle is coming. It's a case of do we wait for fs2020 to settle down or release into the current maelstrom.

To everyone else

What this new game will do is increase the amount of people looking for something else. and that can only be ( at present ) provided by p3d/fsx in any form of quantity, choice, price point and topics. Will we see a split in the community. Of course we will. I suspect we'll see the OP come back to P3D.

I cant wait until the xbox crowd get onto the servers and you find your leisurely flight interrupted by 14 year old xXx69M0f1_420_xXx flying into your plane screaming racist obscenities into the microphone with the crinkle of dorito chips and mountain dew bottles in the background.

I joke... or am I? :pirate:

[TuFun]

Lucky me I don't have P3Dv4 or v5 thanks to MSFS! Will not spend a dime on anything related to LM either. :biggrin-new:

[bazzar]

Each to their own. That is the beauty of this hobby.:engel016:

[gastonj]

Hi,
As long as there are no carrier operations available in MSFS, I will stay on P3DV5 which satisfies me. I just bought it after being a fan of V4.5!
More, as an amateur (and aged) modeler, I prefer the continuity of the SDK with the incremental improvements rather than having to relearn everything
JMC

[noddy]

I am sure LM will keep developing and as long as the developers keep supplying planes etc for the sim, I certainly will not be uninstalling P3D V5, as I need my military aircraft fix.

[wombat666]

Milviz is getting closer to release of their A-1H Skyraider for Prepar3D v4.5 and v5 as it has now entered beta testing.
VRS TacPack will be supported for those who use that product. A release date has not yet been set.
Indeed it looks as if P3D is not on the way out!
:loyal:

[jmig]

In reading these posts, I cannot help but remember the FS9 vs. FSX debate. So many simmers, like I believe I detect here, swore they would never go to FSX. FS9 worked, they were happy with it, and they didn't want to repay for aircraft they already had.

For the record, I am not getting rid of P3D. I am frustrated and tired of always having to fiddle with it to keep it running. It reminds me of my MGB that I bought while in college. I learned auto mechanics on that car. Since I couldn't afford to pay someone else to fix it, I did all the work.

FSX was a challenge and fun to tweak. I enjoyed squeezing another FPS or two out of it. Not so now. I no longer desire to always be tweaking and fiddling. I just want the damn thing to work like my TV. I turn it on select the program and watch. Not so with P3D.

I agree with bazzar that MSFS is currently a game. So was FSX when it first came out. It was people like bazzar and other developers, both freeware and payware that helped turn it into a sim.

MSFS has the potential to become a sim, at least in the civilian world. I got into flight-simming back in the early 1990s when I saw its potential as an IFR procedural trainer. Those of you who have actually flown an approach in IMC know how busy and time compressed it can get in the cockpit. Having flown the procedure in a sim makes you familiar with what it to come, allowing you to stay in front of the airplane.

MSFS will offer developers a much larger customer base than P3D or X-Plane. I believe Flight-1 will eventually port their GNT and GTX 500-600 series over. They may even build a working G1000. Wouldn't that be refreshing. Others will jump on board as the unit sales climb. Little by little MSFS will go from just being a game to becoming a sim.

[gastonj]

In reading these posts, I cannot help but remember the FS9 vs. FSX debate. So many simmers, like I believe I detect here, swore they would never go to FSX. FS9 worked, they were happy with it, and they didn't want to repay for aircraft they already had.

For the record, I am not getting rid of P3D. I am frustrated and tired of always having to fiddle with it to keep it running. It reminds me of my MGB that I bought while in college. I learned auto mechanics on that car. Since I couldn't afford to pay someone else to fix it, I did all the work.

FSX was a challenge and fun to tweak. I enjoyed squeezing another FPS or two out of it. Not so now. I no longer desire to always be tweaking and fiddling. I just want the damn thing to work like my TV. I turn it on select the program and watch. Not so with P3D.

I agree with bazzar that MSFS is currently a game. So was FSX when it first came out. It was people like bazzar and other developers, both freeware and payware that helped turn it into a sim.

MSFS has the potential to become a sim, at least in the civilian world. I got into flight-simming back in the early 1990s when I saw its potential as an IFR procedural trainer. Those of you who have actually flown an approach in IMC know how busy and time compressed it can get in the cockpit. Having flown the procedure in a sim makes you familiar with what it to come, allowing you to stay in front of the airplane.

MSFS will offer developers a much larger customer base than P3D or X-Plane. I believe Flight-1 will eventually port their GNT and GTX 500-600 series over. They may even build a working G1000. Wouldn't that be refreshing. Others will jump on board as the unit sales climb. Little by little MSFS will go from just being a game to becoming a sim.

You are probably right, but do you think P3DV5 can be compared to MSFS like FS9 to FSX? I believe that technically you are underestimating P3DV5 which uses DX12 while MSFS uses DX11 and I'm sure there are other little treats out there.
Will MSFS supplant P3DV5 and all other simulators, the future will tell ?

JMC

[expat]

Sorry to stray a bit OT here, but anyone else getting BSOD's while running P3D 4.5? The error message of course is cryptic giving little clue what's causing this.

[Priller]

You are probably right, but do you think P3DV5 can be compared to MSFS like FS9 to FSX? I believe that technically you are underestimating P3DV5 which uses DX12 while MSFS uses DX11 and I'm sure there are other little treats out there.
Will MSFS supplant P3DV5 and all other simulators, the future will tell ?

JMC

In an upcoming update, MSFS will use DX12.

Priller

[ColoKent]

I was an "early adapter" buying MSFS on day #1. No question, the scenery is absolutely awesome right out of the box. Frankly, other than that, I have found everything else to be pretty much "Hmmmmmfpt.....". Happened to jump back on P3D last night (V5), and it was like getting together with an old friend again, flying the airplanes I like (JF Fokker F-27 last night). Like John, I'll continue to fly both sims. I recognize MSFS is in it's infancy, and it will improve as time goes on (and I get a better video card!). But I will need to do a TON of tweaking to MSFS to get it feeling as comfortable to me as P3D. For the foreseeable future, P3D will remain my "go to" for military flying (which is most of what I do), and I'll continue trying to get smarter on MSFS.

Kent

[bazzar]

A major factor in the longer term success (or otherwise) of MSFS as a simulator will be the degree of complexity/difficulty for developers to make new content. Airports and sceneries will indeed come pouring in because the effort is lower. Aircraft, however, and I mean native not portovers, are a different story. So far the SDK is still incomplete, preventing those that do not have direct access to Asobo from delivering projects that are truly native. The development process is way more complex than P3d/FSX. Payware developers will need to lift their game as well to market products that are at least, comparative in quality to the stock content. With all due respect, it was not difficult to achieve much better models in FSX from day 1. Now, we have top quality, high-end modeling and materials/textures technologies in the stock items. The benchmark for the quality of offerings is therefore much higher if publishers want to see reasonable sales results.

This, of course, can only be good for customers. The quality of add-ons should (and must in my opinion) be of a much higher quality than the average fare in P3D. The issue will be just how many can realistically be produced by favoured developers and in what time. In the meantime, P3D could well see further improvements and multi-sim products coming on the market will be of higher standards due to the extra effort required for MSFS.

I sincerely hope MSFS does become more than a game. I enjoy it and will continue to explore it. We will develop for it as well as for P3D. But I believe you will see a lot of "multi-sim"product being first released for P3D. Cashflow is king in the business of development.:engel016:

[jmig]

For what it is worth, I still don't have P3D V5 running again. I removed my second card, thinking maybe it was a heat or power issue. No change. I followed LM's recommended troubleshooting for graphic cards, no change.

V4.5 and MSFS2020 work just fine. V5 dies before it starts. I am sick of this $hit!

[CG_1976]

As a RW HC27J, MH65D Pilot, Im staying with Lockheed Pro+ 4.5 and 5. MSFS2020 isnt a Lic Commercial Academic nor Study Level. It's just Entertainment and Gaming, unless they go like XP and have a separate Commercial Lic Version. I also favor leaving MSFS2020 in the Civilian Aircraft, Warbirds and Non Combatant Military AC.

[fsafranek]

Ever wondered why you can't and won't get P3D for XBox?
Because XBox is a game platform.

The P3D EULA specifically says that it is supposed to be used "for purposes other than personal/consumer entertainment."
:ernaehrung004:

[Mach3DS]

P3D isn't in competition with MSFS. So it doesn't matter that it isn't the same. And as Baz said, it will have relative consequences for P3D users upgrading for MSFS! Also, I heard a rumor that P3D might be switching over to Unreal Engine. If that happens....muahahahaha......hehehehe.....



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qC5KtatMcUw&t=3s

[jmig]

P3D isn't in competition with MSFS. So it doesn't matter that it isn't the same. And as Baz said, it will have relative consequences for P3D users upgrading for MSFS! Also, I heard a rumor that P3D might be switching over to Unreal Engine. If that happens....muahahahaha......hehehehe.....


What an awesome video. I would love to see P3D use this. I was thinking earlier this morning how P3D with MSFS graphics would be a killer flight sim.

On a side note. I remember playing some of the early Unreal games and like genre with one of my sons. He would navigate and I shoot em. We made a good team. My wife could never understand the father-son bonding. :) Today, unless the game has a God mode, where I can just go through and see the cool effects, I won't even consider it.

[Scorch00]

P3D isn't in competition with MSFS. So it doesn't matter that it isn't the same. And as Baz said, it will have relative consequences for P3D users upgrading for MSFS! Also, I heard a rumor that P3D might be switching over to Unreal Engine. If that happens....muahahahaha......hehehehe.....



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qC5KtatMcUw&t=3s

Interesting idea. I'll just say the FSX based world is quite dated now and they better do something drastic. It's primary users I'm sure are already looking at FS2020 with great enthusiasm. Which is the private sector training schools and the military. However, once FS2020 has all it's bugs worked out and it's addon base expands as does the sim. It's realistic world and dynamics may have training schools switch from P3D to FS2020. They will compete against each other. Realistically, Lockheed had no sim competition really aside from X-Plane, which lacked a lot of features in comparison. Not anymore. X-Plane I believe has surpassed P3D in some respects, but not all. That will likely change I'd assume with the next iteration of the sim. P3D is going to basically go from the upper tear option to the mid-range or low end of the flight sim realm real quick. Also, with the rising power of DCS, other countries have opted to move to that platform for familiarization training instead of using P3D. It's far more realistic in terms of aircraft subsystems and flight dynamics for military aircraft.

I know big flight schools like Embry-Riddle are already looking at switching from P3D to FS2020 in the near future. When I was going to school there at the Prescott campus, they had 2 sim labs on campus that ran P3D, the flight and ATC sim lab 10-25 computers in each lab, then they also used it at the flight line ops center in the motion sims for single and twin engine. They were looking at adding helos when I left. That's just the Prescott Campus, not Daytona. which has more pilots to train. Daytona Campus has around 900 flight students a year. Prescott is around 400 or so now. That's who Lockheed pitches most of their products to, they aren't really focused on the individual home simmer's wants.

[AussieMan]

I am hoping it will not kill P3D or any development of aircraft as I, probably like many others cannot afford to upgrade their computers to run MSFS2020. The money I have invested in P3D V5 is a good reason not to upgrade just to have another sim. Long live P3D.

[bazzar]

Be patient Pat, the dust will settle.:engel016:

[gastonj]

Hi,
The craze for this simulator is due to the quality of its representation of the world. For the rest, it is very incomplete and particularly in the field of operations with aircraft carriers!
JMC

[wombat666]

Hi,
The craze for this simulator is due to the quality of its representation of the world. For the rest, it is very incomplete and particularly in the field of operations with aircraft carriers!
JMC

Right on!
Great for sight seeing but at this point that's it.
:applause:

[DC1973]

Actually, MSFS has support for everything that FSX did. Asobo have removed very little and added a great deal. Even a cursory glance through the SDK reveals active variables for carrier operations - in many ways things are much the same, it's just that the simulator does not yet have airplanes that use those functions, nor an aircraft carrier from which to launch from ( I'm working on it ).

Asobo, I can assure you, are only just getting started, believe it or not. I'm fortunate enough to be in a position to speak to them most days and they're hugely supportive. Jets, helicopters, VR and everything are all coming to MSFS, as they've publicly pointed out.

I don't think P3D will die out any more than X-Plane will, they'll just have to improve to make themselves attractive to simulation fans. MSFS is indeed built for the X-Box in principal, it shows up well in the UI how they're thinking of the console gamer as much as the PC user, but I've had more fun in this simulator in the past few months than I have had in Prepar3D since it first arrived, and far less technical issues as well. I'm all in :)

[gastonj]

Of course we will see ... what will be a priority at Microsoft will be depending on the market ..The "general public" gaming market is very versatile unlike that of simulation.
Trade policy with regard to additions will be critical to its success. I have no doubt that the creators of payware are vigilant on this! Some are smelling dollars (lol)!
As far as I'm concerned, this policy will be decisive in my choice to be a customer or not!


JMC

[LouP]

I've been doing this flight sim thing a long time and am actually a vr guy. But I haven't flown in anything but 2020 since it's purchase. As someone else has said, all the aircraft "feel" like A2A planes in P3D, I feel no need for an add-on aircraft yet and I have thousands (I'm not kidding) in P3D v4.5. I took a flight from Twin Mountain in NH last night and basically flew south down route 93 then east on the Kankcamangus highway then north on Bear notch road, then west on route 302 back to where I started. I've spent a lot of time in this beautiful area skiing, hiking, and motorcycle riding and am very familiar with it. I FELT LIKE I WAS REALLY THERE. All the landmarks I know were there from fire roads to ski slopes. Yea, this is a flight sim. The flight experience while seeing all this felt as it did years ago when I was flying in real life. I actually flew into Twin Mountain in a buddy's 172 and we flew around the area many times as I did myself when I was flying as a teen out of Beverly, MA. Many times I headed up to this area because of it's beauty. I did find some elevation issues with some of the rivers along 93 but even that did not ruin my immersion. Anyone know how to report these?

Word of caution, if you're a long time simmer like me, be prepared for an adjustment as this is nothing like any sim I have used before.

I can only imagine how this is going to be once vr comes along.

Just wanted to pass along my initial impressions.

LouP

[Mach3DS]

Actually, MSFS has support for everything that FSX did. Asobo have removed very little and added a great deal. Even a cursory glance through the SDK reveals active variables for carrier operations - in many ways things are much the same, it's just that the simulator does not yet have airplanes that use those functions, nor an aircraft carrier from which to launch from ( I'm working on it ).

Asobo, I can assure you, are only just getting started, believe it or not. I'm fortunate enough to be in a position to speak to them most days and they're hugely supportive. Jets, helicopters, VR and everything are all coming to MSFS, as they've publicly pointed out.

I don't think P3D will die out any more than X-Plane will, they'll just have to improve to make themselves attractive to simulation fans. MSFS is indeed built for the X-Box in principal, it shows up well in the UI how they're thinking of the console gamer as much as the PC user, but I've had more fun in this simulator in the past few months than I have had in Prepar3D since it first arrived, and far less technical issues as well. I'm all in :)


Agreed. I've had more fun in MSFS then I've ever had in FSX or P3D....EVER. Which is crazy, because I'm very much a military aircraft guy. But man, has Bush flying really come into it's own here! Soooo much fun! landing in places that look authentically real it's deceptive is just another thing altogether!

[udidwht]

Flight Simulator 2020 is expected to generate 3 billion in PC hardware sales!

Not going to happen with P3D.


The challenge of running the game in high quality should stimulate hardware sales and move around $3 billion worth of hardware in three years, according to market research firm Jon Peddie Research (JPR). The company made an estimate of how players will spend to run the game based on different user-profiles and also on the possibilities offered by the simulator. According to JPR, simulation enthusiasts tend to spend more and so the movement of money around the new Flight Simulator should be impressive.


Over the next three years, the company predicts that approximately $ 2.6 billion will be spent on specific hardware to run Flight Simulator to enhance the gaming experience. The bet takes into account the game's estimated sales of 2.7 million units of the simulator in the same period.


The company notes, however, that the value moved by Flight Simulator should be even higher over the entire product lifecycle. JPR also does not consider the numbers of the Xbox Game Pass, a PC subscription service. According to Ted Pollak, analyst at JPR, the reason for so much investment in Flight Simulator with the requirements of the simulator, where we will need a more powerful PC.


In addition to the fact that the basic components of PCs have to be more powerful and consequently more expensive, the company analyst also takes into account the additional hardware. According to Pollak, simulation enthusiasts often invest in additional equipment, including monitors and other devices, to ensure a more immersive experience.

https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/gamesflight-simulator-2020-is-expected-to-generate-3-billion-in-pc-hardware-sales.html

Hardware sales that for the most part Microsoft won't reap from. The hardware however will be used for both P3D and MSFS 2020. A win for both.

[jeansy]

3 billion in hardware sales Wow that's huge. Unlike the 21 billion contract for LM to provide F16 sim software.Just that contract alone will outweigh MS private sales. LM isn't going to fall on its sword as every "gamer" is preaching. Baz is 100% correct MSFS is marketed as a game. You're telling me the FAA and equivalents are going to accept Xbox hours?Just like xplane didnt die with FSX or every version of LM.TF you love coming into the p3d forums and hacking on P3D without even owning it, lots of substance in your observational claims

[rotorhub]

P3D will be kept alive as long as it serves a purpose for LM.

LM has defined P3D as a vehicle simulator, and not only a flight simulator. This opens up many possibilities in the commercial simulation market. It also got a well-proven SDK and many developers. The armed forces seem to like its flexibility, integrated VR support, and DIS protocol (Distributed Interactive Simulation). Visually it is a giant leap ahead of many aging simulator platforms used by the military, schools, and private companies. And it is highly adaptable.

"Academic" users have probably been vital in developing this product for a wider commercial audience. So I would be surprised if they shut it down because of MSFS.

But I don't worry. I will enjoy MSFS2020, P3D, X-Plane, LockOn, Fishing in the Barents Sea, or any simulator that can keep me entertained:jump:

Rotorhub

[jeansy]

But I don't worry. I will enjoy MSFS2020, P3D, X-Plane, LockOn, Fishing in the Barents Sea, or any simulator that can keep me entertained:jump:

Rotorhub

10000% spot on :encouragement: