Best PBR setup for V4.5? [Archive]

Timmy74

June 21st, 2019, 18:18

Hello chaps,

I am wondering what setups you have in your option menus to get the best out of the PBR in version 4.5?

I have the new Milviz PC-6 and can not seem to get the jaggered lines to go away!? Is there suppose to be some sort of "shimmering light effect" coming off the surface of this aircraft and the such? I just can not seem to get the aircraft to look smooth and clean. The "so called" smooth lines on the aircraft look more like a model from the original Flight Simulator of the 80's. All of my other aircraft seem to be very smooth and no problem at all?

My current setup in options are

NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1080

FXAA: ON
AA: 8xSSAA
Texture Filtering: Anisotropic 16x
Texture Resolution: High 2048x2048

VSync: ON
Triple Buffering: TICKED
Frame Rate: Set at 30

Wide View Aspect ratio: OFF
Mipmap VC Panels: OFF

Just some thoughts from people to help me sort out the look -if it can be done- from my options menu.

Thank you for any assistance.

Tim.

YoYo

June 21st, 2019, 23:50

Timmy74

June 22nd, 2019, 14:06

Intersting, I havent PC-6 yet but it looks like the similar issue like C140 (or He-111) of AH in P3Dv4.5:

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php/115606-Cessna-140-released?p=1186350&viewfull=1#post1186350

if developer uses PBR the external texture must be saved with mip maps as I noticed. It solved this problem.
You can try it.

Hello Yo Yo,

Thank you for your reply. I do not have either He111 and C-140 from AH, so I can not compare.

The picture that you show in the link to the Mipmaps on the cowl of the C-140 is exactly what is happening to the PC-6!! So I guess it is an issue on the developers side!? Would you have an idea how I could fix this please on my end?

If not....I will not be buying anymore aircraft for P3D if the developers do not offer a PBR version and Non-PBR version. I have spent way too much money on upgrades and the such to make my current rig run smooth as silk just to come back to an aircraft looks like it was made with 1980's technology....

Cheers,
Tim.

wombat666

June 22nd, 2019, 20:09

The AH Cessna 140 comes in PBR and non-PBR versions.
:devilish:

bazzar

June 23rd, 2019, 01:12

People. Please stop placing this issue at the feet of developers. We have hundreds of customers flying the Cessna and the Heinkel quite happily with full PBR with no problems and no "mips". I suspect MilViz also has the same. It has everything to do with the way the simulator is set up and any third party software being run, especially tweakers and shader manipulators etc. We test ALL aspects of our PBR projects including these and the new DC3/C-47 project on "stock" P3DV4.5 and record NO issues. If you can't run the PBR versions of either the Heinkel or Cessna properly, they are both available in non-PBR.:engel016:

Timmy74

June 23rd, 2019, 12:57

Thank you for chiming in Bazzar but please relax!!! I am not talking about any of your products because I do not have them and like I explained to Yo-Yo i can not comment on those products!

However, if you are a PBR expert maybe you can enlighten me on what "3rd party odd-on's" may be causing this issue with -might i remind you- only one of the aircraft I have...

I have zero 3rd party addon's that you stated "tweakers and shader manipulators etc" on my system! I would call my P3Dv4.5 setup quite vanilla!!! No REX or active sky etc etc installed!

So if there is a way that the blame can be put on to me and not the developers.....I am all ears!! So back to my opening post!!

bazzar

June 23rd, 2019, 13:25

My comment was not for you. Obviously, if you do not have the products then you cannot comment. I cannot comment on the MilViz product and would not anyway. I am simply stating that as far as we are concerned, we see no issues on test with any of our PBR products, in stock configurated sims. If we did see anything we would fix it.:engel016:PBR in this case is a new development and will take time to sort. The simulator does not render it correctly anyway so a fair bit of setting up is required. HDR lighting, dynamic lighting, dynamic reflections, self shadowing and texture resolutions are just some of the things that need to be adjusted. Let us hope that with the advent of FSX2020, LM will accelerate their V.5 development to include full PBR.

mjahn

June 23rd, 2019, 23:02

No harm in trying YoYo's suggestion (to add mipmaps) I suppose. First, make a backup of the texture in question. Then load it in DxtBmp or ImageTool, activate mipmaps, save, test.

If it's a 4096 sized texture then ImageTool might be the better choice -- I think DxtBmp has a tendency to reduce 4096 to 2048, which you do not want. Edit, sorry, just tested it, and DxtBmp handles 4096ers just fine.

YoYo

June 24th, 2019, 01:17

My comment was not for you....

Bazz, as You know beta testers cant find all aspects in whole production process. If it was... probably You will never release any Service Pack :) what I wish for any developer. The real thing - bugs, issues are daily problems in "our" line. Im beta testers for 4 companies and I know it very well. The fact that many drives a bad car does not mean that the car is good ; ). I did advice how to solve it, and I'll do as You want test with defulat shaders Today later (its 5 minutes for me) to show how easy to fix it.

It looks like some of models use PBR texture the external texture (non PBR or spec) must be saved a little different than old "FSX" textures without mipmaps. It's an advice not criticism.

I really like choices AH (one of my favorite developers) and I'd like to have the best models simply :).

YoYo

June 24th, 2019, 11:20

So, ok, here is default P3Dv4.5 ht1 with default shaders, no addons and here is what I discovered if model use advanced PBR textures.
For me its a kind of flickering and model from a little to long distance doesn't look good (like no near any antyaliasing, I use SSAAx4 what is very good, but with SSAAx8 symptoms are the same). I dont know about MV PC-6, I'll check in the future but from 2 months I recived in my work the new Region and Im at home only 2 days at the week : (, this will continue for two months still. True life ; D, ok back to topic.
Here is examples, check the red lines and his quality:

https://imgur.com/E8Pj6JI
https://i.imgur.com/E8Pj6JI.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Sc4lw1O.jpg

Magic trick - MipMaps "on" when files was saved for P3Dv4.5+ (for FSX or P3Dv4.5 without PBR=no mipmaps like before, its important):

http://i.imgur.com/AVLWnvAm.jpg (https://imgur.com/AVLWnvA)

and with PTA's shaders:

http://i.imgur.com/jbb33tPh.jpg (https://imgur.com/jbb33tP)

The same, shaders (default or PTA) doesn't affect antyaliasing as it was presented before.

Settings:

http://i.imgur.com/SvE9JoYm.jpg (https://imgur.com/SvE9JoY)

What I noticed also, both new models from ATStudios: An-2 and Broussard use PBR (very light effect) but here no this kind of issue.

@Bazz, so its not a criticism and I hope you understand it. Its a advice only. You can try it or not but I think You cant reject for rejection only. It will be nice if developer will check it also (especially that two new models are coming: Socata and C-47), that's all what I need ; ).

Cheers!

btw. for example all DCS textures use MipMaps. MipMaps have also a few minuses but it looks better here according me.

Mach3DS

June 24th, 2019, 11:59

PBR is the type of rendering. It has virtually ZERO impact on FPS. It would be like asking what's the best setup to display the Alpha channel reflection - for previous versions of P3D/FSX. There's no setting that controls "PBR". It's just a different way of rendering lighting that is available in the sim.

DCS for example uses MIPs. Because DCS uses many LODs so it makes sense. Unless developers are using this, then MIPs seems unnecessary. But I'm not Pro at this. Baz or another dev could explain further.

PBR though, is NOT a setting. It's the description of how the rendering is being performed. I would suggest that everyione either start mentally prepping for the MAJOR shift in GFX away from the Outdated way that P3Dv4.4 and older and FSX render or decide that you're not going to move forward with the tech. But while the old way and the new currently work together in v4.5, IMHO, having an expectation that a developer could or should try to make their product compatible across all.the flavors of FSX out there is problematic at best. The fact that AH does offer that support is great. But I think it's unrealistic expectation when moving across PBR to the old. They are completely different ways of reading textures. And frankly I can't bieve that developers are doing BOTH!! Amazing.

bazzar

June 24th, 2019, 13:36

YoYo, I can see what you are doing and I can see the result. Here's the thing. We do not have the problem you show. Neither do a lot of other people. So the question you are asking is that we spend a lot of time re-outputting, assembling installers, contacting vendors with information, making notes on our website and Facebook pages etc. etc. so that your problem goes away.

One point, MIPs add to the texture call. Approximately 5 megs per texture, multiplied by the number of textures. This will slow framerates on mid-range computers. Also the file size is increased so storage may or not become a problem.

Maybe, just maybe, this is an issue for different video cards, drivers, monitors, whatever, I don't know. But until we get enough people saying they have a problem, sorry, but we are not issuing any SPs on this particular issue. :engel016:

n4gix

June 24th, 2019, 15:23

From what I can see, AA: 8xSSAA is not working correctly for PBR textures. It has been reported and may be fixed in another update.

wombat666

June 24th, 2019, 19:42

Repetition is boring but one more time.....the Cessna 140 from AH is available in PBR and non PBR versions.
:173go1:

YoYo

June 24th, 2019, 21:10

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by wombat666 http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php?p=1189204#post1189204)
Repetition is boring but one more time.....the Cessna 140 from AH is available in PBR and non PBR versions.
http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/images/smilies/173go1.gif

Its true but according description its a for FSX/FSX:SE/P3D v4.2-4.3 only.
As I understand we haven’t warranty is it work properly for 4.5 for example and his gauges Im affraid.
The second model has description like this: "For P3DV4.4 and above. If you are running P3DV4.4 and above, this is the package you buy".

bazzar

June 24th, 2019, 21:55

To avoid any more confusion.

The Cessna 140 is available in PBR ( for 4.4+) and non- PBR versions (FSX/SE/P3DV3) and as a bundle of both.

If you have P3DV4.5 you CAN still run the non-PBR version but one would have to ask why you would want to when there is a PBR version available which looks much better in 4.5 and that is why we say that if you have 4.5 then the PBR version is the one you should buy.

I can't make it plainer than that.

Timmy74

June 25th, 2019, 01:41

Repetition is boring but one more time.....the Cessna 140 from AH is available in PBR and non PBR versions.
:173go1:

So true! This whole post is about the best PBR set up for P3Dv4.5 and nothing to do with AH and if it comes with both versions and the such, as you have already stated thank you.

Bazzar....would you be so kind as to post your P3Dv4.5 set up please and i will set mine up the same and test against the PC-6 to see if the issue persists...? I know the PC-6 is not your product but at least I can have a go and see if it is something on my rig that can be done to rectify the issue? I guess its better to start with something than nothing at all and have this whole thread go in the wrong direction ....which it looks like it currently is.

YoYo

June 25th, 2019, 07:12

So true! This whole post is about the best PBR set up for P3Dv4.5 and nothing to do with AH and if it comes with both versions and the such, as you have already stated thank you.

Bazzar....would you be so kind as to post your P3Dv4.5 set up please and i will set mine up the same and test against the PC-6 to see if the issue persists...? I know the PC-6 is not your product but at least I can have a go and see if it is something on my rig that can be done to rectify the issue? I guess its better to start with something than nothing at all and have this whole thread go in the wrong direction ....which it looks like it currently is.

I'll install MV PC-6 in the nearest weekend and I'll back to you.

roger-wilco-66

June 25th, 2019, 10:59

So true! This whole post is about the best PBR set up for P3Dv4.5 and nothing to do with AH and if it comes with both versions and the such, as you have already stated thank you.

Bazzar....would you be so kind as to post your P3Dv4.5 set up please and i will set mine up the same and test against the PC-6 to see if the issue persists...? I know the PC-6 is not your product but at least I can have a go and see if it is something on my rig that can be done to rectify the issue? I guess its better to start with something than nothing at all and have this whole thread go in the wrong direction ....which it looks like it currently is.

I think the way this thread is going is in our hands, isn't it. It is quite informative for people to know what has been supplied as informations here from all sides. Thanks for contributing and participating. Let's keep it this way!

Cheers,
Mark

YoYo

July 1st, 2019, 11:47

Hello chaps,

I am wondering what setups you have in your option menus to get the best out of the PBR in version 4.5?

I have the new Milviz PC-6 and can not seem to get the jaggered lines to go away!? ...

Hi Tim,
Im back to You.
I tested PC6 and... it looks exactly the same. Perhaps its a Prepar3Dv4.5 bug, not full PBR support. MipMaps partially solved it as I noticed (better antialiasing effect).

I did the one side texture with mipmaps. Try it, You can download it here: https://www.sendspace.com/file/0r2ll4 ( put it here Prepar3Dv4\SimObjects\Airplanes\MV_PC-6_Base\texture.livery3 ) .

Here is example of stock texture and this one, check the red line on the fuselage (I did for test the one side only). :very_drunk:

https://i.imgur.com/7tX0YdC.jpg

Give me Your feedback pls.

Timmy74

July 2nd, 2019, 00:28

Yo Yo,

Thank you very much for testing it on your end and concluding that you are having the same issue as me. So its not only me then....PHEW!!!

I have tried to download your test but can not seem to without signing up to some sort of website? Sorry...but i will take your word for it and the test you did makes the textures look a lot better but not 100%. So in saying that it may well be a LM PBR issue in v4.5???

My request still stands to Bazzar and Milviz for their system and P3Dv4.5 set ups, so that I can see if I continue to get this issue.....but have still had no response form either developer!?!

YoYo

July 2nd, 2019, 00:46

I have tried to download your test but can not seem to without signing up to some sort of website?

Just click Download.

Registration isn't needed.

Btw. For me its a LM bug but Im not sure for 100%. Please see for example default F-16C. This model uses PBR also but I didnt notice this strange problem.
Maybe it's a different option of saving the model by creator also?

Timmy74

July 2nd, 2019, 02:51

Just click Download.

Registration isn't needed.

Btw. For me its a LM bug but Im not sure for 100%. Please see for example default F-16C. This model uses PBR also but I didnt notice this strange problem.
Maybe it's a different option of saving the model by creator also?

Okay...got it! Must have been clicking on the wrong link!?

She looks so much better!!!

BTW i looked at the F-16 and she too looks fantastic and no jagged lines.

bazzar

July 2nd, 2019, 14:11

I am more than 100% sure that this issue has something to do with how video cards render the images. I was not aware that any further comment from me was required. Some people allow the video card to control things like anti-aliasing instead of the application. There is no magic solution here, if you look at the shots of the Socata in that thread further down, do you see any "jaggies" there? No. And that is taken from my 4 year -old hack machine on stock 4.5. I cannot and will not comment on other developers' work or products. All I can say is that I suspect that MilViz hold the same opinion. Our "duty of care" to customers is to deliver a product that meets specifications and delivers a level of quality as promised. We believe we have done that with the Cessna.

Timmy74

July 3rd, 2019, 02:15

Okay...I am done! :banghead:

Thank you everyone for your input.

YoYo

July 5th, 2019, 14:47

Hi Tim,
Ok, after my research it looks like for 90% Im sure its a LM and P3Dv4.4+ bug and it's present always, on orginal screenshots of models also (maybe on lower screenshot resolution and with FXAA = on, what I dont like it because it blurs the picture, its less visible).

Today I tested my "old" solution for antyaliasing which I used for FSX long time ago and I see it works very OK with PBR models. The result surprise me! :running:
Maybe its a Holy Grail for models used PBR?

I turn on Sparse Grid Supersampling which is very good for the final effect and... see this (check lines, here are default textures without MipMaps):

http://i.imgur.com/IeiCiHyh.jpg (https://imgur.com/IeiCiHy)

Also C140 looks a lot of better:

http://i.imgur.com/8XnxbMEh.jpg (https://imgur.com/8XnxbME)

http://i.imgur.com/W3haNvqh.jpg (https://imgur.com/W3haNvq)

What is very important use SGSS = the same like MSAA or SSAA in P3Dv4.5 so if 4x use 4x also.

Minus of Sparse Grid Supersampling is few FPS less (I have unlimited, the cost is -10 fps for 4xSGSS but if we take 10 fps from 110 it isnt very noticable ;) ).

The best result for me after tests (quality and performance) recive 4x SGSS and 4x MSAA. I advice to check this settings.

Here are my settings, pls check it and back here, if it will be ok I add in on MV Forum also:

https://i.imgur.com/dgdgv7Z.jpg