Anyone tried the RAZBAM Harrier in P3d V4?

[Ganter]

Does it show up okay? Gauges, etc?

What's the awful transition at 90 kts like? Any better?

Ta

[DaveWG]

It shows up, most gauges work. VTOL doesn't as it's a 32bit dll.

[Ganter]

It shows up, most gauges work. VTOL doesn't as it's a 32bit dll.


What happens when the you put the nozzles down?

[Daube]

As Dave said above, the Razbam Harrier depends on a 32 bits DLL module to work. So it won't be usable in P3Dv4.
As for the transition, since it's handled by its gauges or modules, it would be exactly the same in P3Dv4 as it was in FSX or P3Dv3. Just bad.
The SSW Harrier is the only choice for P3Dv4, and it's quite good.

[Ganter]

So it seems. I did a more thorough search here and found this discussion from a little while ago;

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php/107694-P3Dv4-RAZBAM-Wilco-Harrier-VTOL-Any-solutions-in-sight

I really wanted to get the Raz up in the air as the SSW AV-8B is a temperamental SOB on my system and routinely freezes up 10 mins in to the flight.

I'll have a bit of a play with the modified Rob gauge and see.

[bazzar]

The Wilco Harrier GR3 flies well in V4.4.

[Ganter]

The Wilco Harrier GR3 flies well in V4.4.


Thanks Bazzar - as folks seem to have concluded on the other thread.

However, better the devil you know and all that - would really like to get the Razbam going in v4.

I've done the dll.xml edit mentioned in the other thread...

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php/107694-P3Dv4-RAZBAM-Wilco-Harrier-VTOL-Any-solutions-in-sight

...and things are now working (apart from Flap settings displaying correctly on the gauge in the vc - though certainly deploying correctly) but yeah, VSTOL is a mess. The bird gets to about 70% power and rears up (like a difficult horse) and ends up on her back (like a whore). And although that sort of thing would be of interest at any other time (like when you've got a weekend pass) - when you're bowling down the Runway at 160 kts - you've other things on your mind - like getting seriously airborne fast.

[StormILM]

I saw where some guys over at one of the P3Dv4 Facebook pages were showing screens of them flying it in game but I didn't take a deeper look at it. I bought the model for FSX some time ago and didn't particularly care for it but I have the DCS version which is hands down the finest Harrier model ever made for flight sim to now. The STOVL modeling is simply fantastic for the model in DCS and there is a very nice freeware sound upgrade that enhances the engine & cockpit sounds for the model. I use DCS more and more for fighter/high performance aircraft models, especially as newer models come along. P3Dv4 is hands down my go to sim for GA and Commercial aircraft models/scenery, etc.

[Ganter]

I saw where some guys over at one of the P3Dv4 Facebook pages were showing screens of them flying it in game but I didn't take a deeper look at it. I bought the model for FSX some time ago and didn't particularly care for it but I have the DCS version which is hands down the finest Harrier model ever made for flight sim to now. The STOVL modeling is simply fantastic for the model in DCS and there is a very nice freeware sound upgrade that enhances the engine & cockpit sounds for the model. I use DCS more and more for fighter/high performance aircraft models, especially as newer models come along. P3Dv4 is hands down my go to sim for GA and Commercial aircraft models/scenery, etc.

Yeah, I heard DCS is pretty much top of the line for combat, and certainly Razbam put it out there with the AV-8B Night Attack and won all the awards.

I guess a move to DCS is required at some point.

In the mean time I'm looking at taking the GR 7/9 off the deck of Invincible and Ark Royal so I guess my requirements are different.

Big respect to you guys on DCS - looks like you have it figured. Get your teeth out and Good Hunting!

But my OP remains; I would just love to get the Razbam flying - as badly - and as difficulty - as it does in FSX - in P3D V4

It's personal.

https://i.postimg.cc/SQvQFbFD/harriergr9.jpg (https://postimg.cc/gr3b850Z)how to screenshot on windows 7 (https://postimages.org/app)

[Daube]

Thanks Bazzar - as folks seem to have concluded on the other thread.

However, better the devil you know and all that - would really like to get the Razbam going in v4.

I've done the dll.xml edit mentioned in the other thread...

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php/107694-P3Dv4-RAZBAM-Wilco-Harrier-VTOL-Any-solutions-in-sight

...and things are now working (apart from Flap settings displaying correctly on the gauge in the vc - though certainly deploying correctly) but yeah, VSTOL is a mess. The bird gets to about 70% power and rears up (like a difficult horse) and ends up on her back (like a whore). And although that sort of thing would be of interest at any other time (like when you've got a weekend pass) - when you're bowling down the Runway at 160 kts - you've other things on your mind - like getting seriously airborne fast.

I don't know about the flaps, but as far as I remember, the plane tilting on its back and loosing control during hover is usually a sign of overweight.
To fly in VTOL, the plane needs to be very light. Like, with less than 30% of fuel, and not much under the wings.

[Stinger]

DCS, utilizes the Razbam Harrier in it’s sim and it’s pretty good,the transition to VSTOL can be tricky .. you have to lighten it or it gets squirrelly. But all in all it’s pretty good

[Ganter]

I don't know about the flaps, but as far as I remember, the plane tilting on its back and loosing control during hover is usually a sign of overweight.
To fly in VTOL, the plane needs to be very light. Like, with less than 30% of fuel, and not much under the wings.


No, I'm all good on weights. Nothing on the rails and 3500 lbs of fuel. That's well under limits for VTOL.

The more I examine it the more I think the flaps are part of the problem. They don't show on the gauges as changing when you deploy them. On VTOL they need to be on auto and with nozzles at 79% they should be at 62. They LOOK like they are from the exterior but I don't think they are in terms of the FD.

Attempting a vertical TO with zero flaps would result in a massive pitch up moment - exactly what I'm seeing in the sim.

I wonder if there's a fix for this.

[DaveWG]

I wonder if there's a fix for this.

It's all tied into the Razbam VTOL module. I had the same effect in FSX if the module wasn't loaded.
The only solution, apart from Razbam relating a proper 64bit module, is to totally replace the whole FD/VTOL combo. I did try grafting in the Wilco Harrier FD with the 64 bit modules. I did work in that I could VTOL and transition to FF fine, but the weights and aircraft performance were obviously incorrect for a GR7/9 and some things like flap indications didn't work.
I'm sure with quite a bit of work these problems could be overcome.

[Ganter]

It's all tied into the Razbam VTOL module. I had the same effect in FSX if the module wasn't loaded.
The only solution, apart from Razbam relating a proper 64bit module, is to totally replace the whole FD/VTOL combo. I did try grafting in the Wilco Harrier FD with the 64 bit modules. I did work in that I could VTOL and transition to FF fine, but the weights and aircraft performance were obviously incorrect for a GR7/9 and some things like flap indications didn't work.
I'm sure with quite a bit of work these problems could be overcome.

Well, there's no chance of Razbam updating it for P3D v4 - he's long gone from FSX/ P3D to DCS.

I also tried grafting elements of the SSW AV-8B in to the Razbam - it did not go well!

I'm sure it's to do with the flaps indication and real deployment of them in the .air file but I could very well be wrong.

[Daube]

Ok, if the weight was ok for VTOL but the plane still behaves like that, then it's definitely the lack of the DLL that prevents it from hovering.
I think I had that problem back in P3Dv3, after I moved the plane folder from my FSX to my P3D, but forgot to update the DLL.xml of P3D... Then the DLL was not loaded and I couldn't hover in the sim...
Later on I understood my mistake, updated the DLL.xml with both the entries for the Harrier and the A-7 (I had that one too) and the plane started to hover properly again :)
But that was in P3Dv3, which was 32 bits...

http://sapdaube.free.fr/p3d/daube_image0220.jpg

[gary20]

In the aircraft.cfg coment out "//" these two lines in the [GeneralEngineData] section as below:
// thrustanglespitchheading.1 = -90,0
// thrustanglespitchheading.2 = -90,0


This eliminates the weird flipping on its back behaviour on VTOL.


The AVM 64 bit vtol module works quite well and is available here: https://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/resources/avm-gauge-xml-to-simconnect-interface.202/
I use Version 6.4 of Rob Barendregt's "VSTOLControlIPC_Function.xml" gauge with the 64 bit AVM module and it handles the flaps OK. You also need his "RCB_FSX_Init.xml" loaded in the panel.cfg with it all.
I'm quite happy with the VTOL operations using the above.


Of course without Razbam's RZAV8BCM.dll loaded you lose some functionality such as the engine panel gauges etc ... but it flies quite well.

[Ganter]

In the aircraft.cfg coment out "//" these two lines in the [GeneralEngineData] section as below:
// thrustanglespitchheading.1 = -90,0
// thrustanglespitchheading.2 = -90,0


This eliminates the weird flipping on its back behaviour on VTOL.


The AVM 64 bit vtol module works quite well and is available here: https://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/resources/avm-gauge-xml-to-simconnect-interface.202/
I use Version 6.4 of Rob Barendregt's "VSTOLControlIPC_Function.xml" gauge with the 64 bit AVM module and it handles the flaps OK. You also need his "RCB_FSX_Init.xml" loaded in the panel.cfg with it all.
I'm quite happy with the VTOL operations using the above.


Of course without Razbam's RZAV8BCM.dll loaded you lose some functionality such as the engine panel gauges etc ... but it flies quite well.

Thanks for this Gary.

I'll experiment with those 'cfg edits.

Someone else mentioned the AVM 64 bit module but I don't understand how this relates to the Razbam Harrier - it not having that within the panel.
Would you be kind enough to explain - especially if it can be implemented with the Razbam?

Many thanks,

[gary20]

When you download Maryadi's 64 bit AVM module, the instructions for adding it to your panel.cfg are included with examples.
Make sure to use the 64 bit module provided.

You also have to add the two Rob Barendregt's gauges "VSTOLControlIPC_Function.xml and RCB_FSX_Init.xml" to your panel.cfg. These provide the "dynamics" for VTOL operation.
I think the Wilco Harrier has these .. not sure where I got them ...


I've also tweaked the Aircraft.cfg quite a bit, but if you add and overwrite the [FLAPS] entry below (which I think is also from the Wilco Harrier), then flaps work fine:


[Flaps.0]
type=1
span-outboard=0.5
extending-time=2
system_type=0
damaging-speed=300
blowout-speed=300
lift_scalar=0
drag_scalar=0
pitch_scalar=0
flaps-position.0= 0 // 265 < Airspeed
flaps-position.1= 5 // 240 < Airspeed < 265
flaps-position.2=10 // 215 < Airspeed < 240
flaps-position.3=15 // 190 < Airspeed < 215
flaps-position.4=20 // 165 < Airspeed < 190
flaps-position.5=25 // Airspeed < 165, Nozzles < 25
flaps-position.6=35 // Airspeed < 165, 25 < Nozzles < 33
flaps-position.7=45 // Airspeed < 165, 33 < Nozzles < 41
flaps-position.8=55 // Airspeed < 165, 41 < Nozzles < 50
flaps-position.9=65 // Airspeed < 165, 50 < Nozzles < 100

Hope that helps ...

[Ganter]

When you download Maryadi's 64 bit AVM module, the instructions for adding it to your panel.cfg are included with examples.
Make sure to use the 64 bit module provided.

You also have to add the two Rob Barendregt's gauges "VSTOLControlIPC_Function.xml and RCB_FSX_Init.xml" to your panel.cfg. These provide the "dynamics" for VTOL operation.
I think the Wilco Harrier has these .. not sure where I got them ...


I've also tweaked the Aircraft.cfg quite a bit, but if you add and overwrite the [FLAPS] entry below (which I think is also from the Wilco Harrier), then flaps work fine:


[Flaps.0]
type=1
span-outboard=0.5
extending-time=2
system_type=0
damaging-speed=300
blowout-speed=300
lift_scalar=0
drag_scalar=0
pitch_scalar=0
flaps-position.0= 0 // 265 < Airspeed
flaps-position.1= 5 // 240 < Airspeed < 265
flaps-position.2=10 // 215 < Airspeed < 240
flaps-position.3=15 // 190 < Airspeed < 215
flaps-position.4=20 // 165 < Airspeed < 190
flaps-position.5=25 // Airspeed < 165, Nozzles < 25
flaps-position.6=35 // Airspeed < 165, 25 < Nozzles < 33
flaps-position.7=45 // Airspeed < 165, 33 < Nozzles < 41
flaps-position.8=55 // Airspeed < 165, 41 < Nozzles < 50
flaps-position.9=65 // Airspeed < 165, 50 < Nozzles < 100

Hope that helps ...

Gary - are we talking about the Razbam Harrier here. Have you had luck using the Rob VTOL gauge with it?

The .cfg edits you suggested made the Harrier un-flyable. Were you suggesting they must be used with the Rob gauge? I tried them without it and I just accelerated forward with no nozzle to 80% effect on forward speed and vertical TO whatsoever.

[gary20]

Gary - are we talking about the Razbam Harrier here. Have you had luck using the Rob VTOL gauge with it?

The .cfg edits you suggested made the Harrier un-flyable. Were you suggesting they must be used with the Rob gauge? I tried them without it and I just accelerated forward with no nozzle to 80% effect on forward speed and vertical TO whatsoever.

Yes, the Razbam Harrier in P3Dv4.4.
Yes, you have to use Rob's gauges with the AVM module.
Here's how they're loaded in my panel.cfg for the GR7 under the [Vcockpit01] section (same for the GR9 panel):

gauge00=RAZBAM_HGR7!RAV8BP_HUD, 0, 20, 510, 512
gauge01=AVM64!Maryadi_lv2av, 0,0
gauge02=rcb-gauges!VSTOLControlIPC_Function, 0,0
gauge03=rcb-gauges!RCB_FSX_Init, 0,0

Along with commenting out the above and adding and overwriting the flaps entries above, it works quite well …..

[Ganter]

How does the gauge work gary?

Is it a popup that flies the plane irrespective of the original .air file or something?

[gary20]

How does the gauge work gary?

Is it a popup that flies the plane irrespective of the original .air file or something?

No popup. It just works in the background controlling a few things like nozzle positions, flaps, VTOL physics etc etc ?
Above my paygrade on how it works, but it does ...

[Ganter]

The man above is a genius who has made the Razbam Harrier GR7/9 the finest VTOL aircraft in P3D v4 and everything below that.

https://i.postimg.cc/kMbNxmF1/harrier1.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[odourboy]

The man above is a genius who has made the Razbam Harrier GR7/9 the finest VTOL aircraft in P3D v4 and everything below that.



Seriously?! You guys have a fully functional Razbam Harrier working in V4? Instruments as well?

[Ganter]

seriously?! You guys have a fully functional razbam harrier working in v4? Instruments as well?


yeaaaaaaaahhhhhhh !

[rvn817j]

Time to go to work! This is great news.

[Daube]

Does the load manager work ?

[gary20]

Weapons management and functionality, fuel, some gauges and other aspects are all dependent on the 32 bit Razbam RZAV8BCM.dll for functionality, which of course doesn't work in P3Dv4.
The above gives VTOL and improves handling, but without a 64 bit dll, the above functionalities are all somewhat limited.

[Daube]

The man above is a genius who has made the Razbam Harrier GR7/9 the finest VTOL aircraft in P3D v4 and everything below that.

What makes it the "finest VTOL in P3Dv4" exactly?
The fact that its systems, fuel and payload management don't work at all is a serious handicap, isn't it ?
I wouldn't call that model "finest" at all...

[Ganter]

What makes it the "finest VTOL in P3Dv4" exactly?
The fact that its systems, fuel and payload management don't work at all is a serious handicap, isn't it ?
I wouldn't call that model "finest" at all...


You haven't flown it with the mods.

The fuel system works fine, the payload manager works just fine. Weapons release is being worked on as we speak. All the instruments work except engine panel and flaps settings display - but if you fly the Harrier you don't need to see those to know if you're getting things right; "Balancing an elephant on a needle in the hover, etc."

I don't know why you're being negative about it - earlier in the thread you simply stated that the SSW Harrier was the ONLY option. BS - the SSW has never been an option for me because it freezes my sim 5-10 minutes - EVERY time I try and fly the damn thing. It remains permanently scrapped out the back of my virtual hangar.

Personally I am filled with joy at the dedication and hard work put in to making this old aeroplane in to a champ. It's always been one hell of a looker - now it's one hell of a flyer.

https://i.postimg.cc/mrQZ2FNV/harrier2.jpg (https://postimg.cc/jWSYM21J)

[Corvette99]

has anyone made up a download of all the needed files for the Razbam Harrier or is it an Easter egg hunt and hope process ?

[odourboy]

Easter egg hunt. And I'm not sure I found a golden egg cuz after locating and setting up the Harrier with the requisite dll and XML files, I've got issues.

[Ganter]

Easter egg hunt. And I'm not sure I found a golden egg cuz after locating and setting up the Harrier with the requisite dll and XML files, I've got issues.

That's rubbish - and you know it. You have not and do not, have access to the files that have fixed the Razbam Harrier for P3D v4.

The fixes for this are strictly the domain of a couple of us who have been posting. You have absolutely not tried them out and therefore, have no right to make any judgement or criticism of them.

What you have been doing with your own experimentation should, and must remain your own thaaaaing.

You could of course....just ask politely...

To fly the Harrier takes character.

Do you have it?

[odourboy]

I scoured the internet and located copies of the two XML gauges Gary named in earlier in this thread. I applied the indicated changes to the aircraft.cfg and panel.cfg (even fixed the sound gauge while I was in there). With these mods, I had issues. (Both throttle position and prop pitch fighting to aim the nozzles, to name one.)

If there are modifications required to these gauges, or additional changes required that have not been disclosed, then share them, or stop wasting everybody's time.

[odourboy]

Oh my, you got me Jim. Now, can we get back on topic.

Here are the XML gauges I found and tried in the panel.cfg. I can't confirm they are correct because I'm still having a few issues with the Harrier.

[DaveWG]

I've been following this thread with interest as if like to get the GR7/9 working correctly in v4. As I'm away from home at the moment I haven't had the chance to try any of the above edits, but it did read as though all that was needed was what had been posted so far, and no mention of other, so far, secret modifications. If you would be willing to share these, or provide information on what needs to be changed, it works be most appreciated.
Thanks.

[rvn817j]

I went through the various .cfg changes and added the files. I now have the RazBam Harrier flying in P3Dv4. Flight testing has not gone too far yet so I do not know if hover is possible. The one serious issue I have noticed is that anything to do with FLIR that I have touched (Shift-3, select FLIR on the MPD) has crashed P3D to desktop. If anyone has any suggestions to fix the FLIR issue, please share. If anyone wants the RCB files, PM me and I will provide them.

[Ganter]

I went through the various .cfg changes and added the files. I now have the RazBam Harrier flying in P3Dv4. Flight testing has not gone too far yet so I do not know if hover is possible. The one serious issue I have noticed is that anything to do with FLIR that I have touched (Shift-3, select FLIR on the MPD) has crashed P3D to desktop. If anyone has any suggestions to fix the FLIR issue, please share. If anyone wants the RCB files, PM me and I will provide them.

Yep, FLIR will crash P3D with this at the moment. Knock it out of the panel.cfg for now. Fix is being sought.

[rcbarend]

Oh my, you got me Jim. Now, can we get back on topic.

Here are the XML gauges I found and tried in the panel.cfg. I can't confirm they are correct because I'm still having a few issues with the Harrier.

I wish people would respect the copyright and distribution restriction texts that are all over my README's and in the VSTOL gauges themselves.
I don't have a problem with people sharing them in private (or make modifications for personal use), but please don't upload them in a public forum.
For all kinds of reasons.

By the way: the VSTOL gauge you attached certainly won't work in the Razbam Harrier, since this gauge was made specifically for the MV22B Osprey !

As a general note to everyone:

I have promissed myself to never publically make statements on what I think is the "best" VSTOL/STOVL solution/implementation for a Harrier. And I won't start now.
Razbam chose a different solution to simulate VSTOL then I did for Harriers (and many other VSTOL_capable aircraft) like the Wilco HJJ and SSW Harrier.
But I respect anyone's opinion on what works best.

For this reason, I'm not supporting (or comment on) any experiment by users, to try to combine the Razbam Harrier with my VSTOL gauges.
But IMHO, this will never lead to a good solution.

Of course I am biassed, because I know exactly what "problems" in the combined flightmodel to look for; VSTOL is a lot more then just taking off / landing vertically.

So: feel free to experiment in private; but don't re-upload my gauges publically.

Regards,

Rob Barendregt

[odourboy]

Offending gauge attachment deleted. Good to know why the mods weren't working properly for me. Moving on. :running:

[Moses03]

odourboy-

Insulting SOH members is not looked upon fondly here. Please refrain from such language moving forward. Thank you.

[rvn817j]

I also apologize to Rob if I violated any restrictions on distribution of his .xml files. Sorry Rob, it was never my intent to do that.

[Ganter]

Can we make these effective changes in FSX? - never mind P3D.

Just to make it fly better using the Rob32 bit version as suppose to to the 64 Bit.

Answers on a postcard. I'm onboard and waiting to ski-jump off the pointy end. Like this fellow.
https://i.postimg.cc/SNy1kvfG/hms-illustrious-sea-harrier-ski-jump.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[Victory103]

Taking a break from the other sim with the Raz Harrier, and found myself searching here to get the model in P3Dv4+. Was there ever a solution to the VSTOL fixes, I see the links removed and understand. I've got the TMAP mod for weapons ready to go in if I can the jet flying ok. Lost my original AV-8, just purchased the GR7/9 direct from Razbam for $10 US. Initial test to see what works was as expected, somehow landed it (conventional).

[Daube]

Instead of wasting your money buying this Harrier for P3Dv4, in which it doesn't work at all, you should have bought the Harrier from SSW which fully works and has a better flight model...
If you are still using FSX or P3D up to v3, then it's not a complete waste of money, since you'll definitely be able to fly that Harrier in these sims.
The RAZBAM Harrier uses 32bits dlls, one of which has to be declared in the DLL.xml of your sim.
Without it, it won't even fly in VTOL, if I'm not mistaken.

[Manschy]

As long as the SSW Harrier has no Royal Air Force model included, it would be waste of money to me. It's a shame that lots of developer currently create one model of a serial and that's it. Still some time ago, developer create single seater, trainer or any other different kinds of models (let's hear it for the freeware developer particularly...). Those days, you got F-16 in all versions, A-4, F-104 Starfighter, Hunters, Canberras, Harriers, Lightnings etc etc....
It's better to fly the GR7 conventionally and change into the UKMIL T-10 for example (that does the VTOL without any problems in v4 btw) because I for one like the change :very_drunk:.

Oh, that said: Did anybody try the UKMIL vectoring in the RAZBAM maybe? That would be interesting...

[Victory103]

Thanks Daube, guess I'll just go back to flying it in DCS. I have the SSW as well, just never brought it over to P3Dv4 and have to dig around for it on my drive. I read up on the Wilco GR3, but that VC looks dated. I go through these little phases of seeing a vid (watched Aircrew Interviews) or reading a book about a particular aircraft and then try to fly it in the sim, especially one as iconic as the Harrier. I get motivated to try to fix some of these issues or figure out MCX, wasting hours of my limited down time with zero progress. Outside of rotors, guess I'll stick to my powered-lift with Maryadi's MV-22.

Manschy, I will give those ideas a try, I kind of like the weirdness look of the T-10 model.