FSX or P3Dv4? Your opinions please

[strykerpsg]

SOH Community,

As my new desktop (i9 7900X, dual 1080 GPUs, WIN 10 Pro, 32GB DDR4 RAM @2933Mhz, 1500w PSU & 3 TB HHD) is imminently inbound next week to the Land of the Morning Calm, I query your input, advice and recommendations please.

While I loosely follow some of the P3Dv4 scuttlebutt about being a better 64 bit simulation engine, what I would like to know is your feedback on why you think one or the other is better, in your opinion of course.

I am on the fence making the move to P3Dv4 but just really want to see your opinions of LM and how they are continuing to support/evolve, as well as some of the supporting FSX developers. I own volumes of FSX scenery, add-ons and aircraft. While I understand many are compatible, just curious how tough some items have been to convert over to P3Dv4.

Also, once you buy a license, is it only good for that particular machine and do you need to purchase additional licenses once you upgrade your machine or a newer version releases?

Thanks so much in advance. Always supported and read this forum daily. It's been great seeing some items completed and others that seemed to fade away, reappear, like the P-61.

Have a great day all!

Matt

[blanston12]

Looks like you have a great machine for P3D, FSX would never take advantage of all that horse power. I have been using it for a while and am very impressed by the performance and stability. The generally do ask you to buy again with each major version which seams to be every two years. But I take that as the cost of supporting the product. But then I got the academic license so it’s not too expensive.

If if your on the fence get a one month developer license and try it out.

[Ganter]

With that rig you'll run FSX like a champ if you carefully configure everything.
My specs are pretty much similar and my FSX runs very nicely indeed (I get between 30-40 FPS with FSL A320X at Heathrow Extreme - Ukscenery 2000, Orbx FTX, OrbxRegion England, AS16, Track IR, FSXWildlife, etc)

Regarding P3D why don't you install the monthly license version to try it out - as Blanston suggests? Then, you'll have both side by side to compare. That's where I'm heading at some point but tbh, FSX does it for me at the moment and when I do eventually move to P3D it'll be permanent (because of the cost of moving all my addons) that's what's stopping me!
"It isn't bust so I'm not fixing it"

[TuFun]

You can try it for 60 days, then return it if your not satisfied.

https://www.prepar3d.com/support/refundpolicy/

[strykerpsg]

Great advice all! I just looked at the LM website (Thanks TuFun!) and noticed the Professional Plus version offering "Experience combat scenarios involving a complement of weapons and sensors". That's an interesting bullet, though not worth the asking price. However, I wonder if this is the reason VRS nor TacPack work within the P3D environment? I would also be really curious as to what complement of weapons and sensors are included in that package, not because I could afford that, but just really curious if there's a potential conflict of interest.

I may just try installing both. I was honestly quite tired of the OOM messages from before, especially after performing a very long flight, but what I really want is the best immersion since it looks like it will be some time before I can ever honestly pursue a PPL. I also have an Occulus Rift arriving with my partial household goods in 2 months, so really want the most immersive environment possible. With so many great add-ons, it really is tough trying to go one way or the other, but love hearing opinions of the crew here and with a dedicated 1TB HDD to flying, I do not foresee running out of HDD space anytime soon.

Thanks for some great advice thus far. I will continue to browse thread and the P3D thread. Thanks again.

[Mach3DS]

Tacpack works in P3D Academic. It's simply not been converted for v4 yet to 64 bit.

[AussieMan]

It's a no-brainer mate. P3D V4 for sure.

[PHo17]

I have knocked the walls of FSX for years. OOMs and other problems. FSX is over 10 years old prog. P3D v.4 is future for now.

[IanHenry]

P3Dv4, there's no contest.


Ian

[gman5250]

You've put a lot of thought and energy into that build. P3Dv4 has so much more built in, and so much potential, it would be a shame not to take full advantage of your new system.
I could spend a hour detailing the benefits, but I'll just leave it with a two thumbs up for V4.

I develop for 32 bit and 64 bit, and when I go into the 32 bit programs it reminds me how big V4 really is.

My two bits....:encouragement:

[AusWilko]

Why not XP11? not stirring but honestly this is something I have been thinking about for a bit, seems developers are starting to do stuff for it and outside of this little part of the world there seems to be a growing fan base.

[warchild]

well, ok..
For technical flights, nothing beats X-plane. It has hands down the best flight modeling engine going for it.

For environments like scenery, weather etc, you cant find better than P3Dv4. its incredible.

For everything else, theres FSX.

I dont know,, I have all three. Truth told, I hardly touch P3D or X-plane. i dont like P3D's interface. It feels clunky and unfinished to me. I dont want to see a list of aircraft names, i want to see the aircraft when i go to select them. I just think FSX's user interface is much more suited to my wants and needs. I also have a personal thing against WMD's and their manufacturers and Martin Marietta is a subdivision of lockheed. I know, i'm weird. I'd still recommend P3Dv4 for you. It's an excellent platform and will only get better with time.. install reshade for it and a wether injector and your on top of the world..
https://i.imgur.com/j00hP5N.jpg

[expat]

I waited years to go from FS9 to FSX. I regretted not doing it sooner. I also waited for P3D to go 64 bit. I bit this August with P3Dv4 Academic license and not touched FSX since. A complete game changer.

[txnetcop]

Like Warchild I have all three. Nothing but nothing touches accuracy like X-Plane for aircraft unless you have A2A and PMDG. Scenery is getting is better all the time in X-Plane 11, but hands down P3Dv4 has it over all the others right now. FSX with my Orbx is an old friend with old aircraft I can't fly in the other two sims...just fun flying when I have time or the inclination.
Ted

[Daube]

XP11 is fantastic, as long as you don't need to fly any warbirds or military jets. Because there are almost none at all.
There's one team that makes a few very nice looking warbirds, but from what I've seen they are very limited on the technical side. Don't expect anything like Accusim or such.

For helicopters or civilian aicrafts though, there is definitely some excellent addons out there. There's even a company that makes Accusim-like extentions for some of the Carenado airplanes, making them realistic ! (Can you imagine that ? A realistic Carenado aircraft? :D )

But for people like me who appreciate the Accusim warbirds and the military jets, P3Dv3 or P3Dv4 is, for now, unbeatable.
And NO, I'm not interested in DCS.

[bbrz]

Nothing but nothing touches accuracy like X-Plane for aircraft unless you have A2A and PMDG
It's a myth that x-planes flight modelling is any better than in FSX.
In fact in many cases it's simply impossible in x-plane to achieve realistic handling/performance due to the rigid 'fixed' blade element theory.
In FSX (and multi million dollar real simulators) the lookup tables provide much more flexibility in flight model design.
A good flight dynamics designer can build very good FDEs in both sims but FSX still has the edge when it comes to precise and specific flight model tuning.
Crosswind handling in x-plane is still awful and since IMO the lighting engine is better in FSX than in P3D I don't see any reason to switch to P3D.
Tried it within the trail period and returned it.

[txnetcop]

It's a myth that x-planes flight modelling is any better than in FSX.
In fact in many cases it's simply impossible in x-plane to achieve realistic handling/performance due to the rigid 'fixed' blade element theory.
In FSX (and multi million dollar real simulators) the lookup tables provide much more flexibility in flight model design.
A good flight dynamics designer can build very good FDEs in both sims but FSX still has the edge when it comes to precise and specific flight model tuning.
Crosswind handling in x-plane is still awful and since IMO the lighting engine is better in FSX than in P3D I don't see any reason to switch to P3D.
Tried it within the trail period and returned it.

Have to disagree since I was a real-life GA pilot for years and if you check the flight schools you will find X-Plane more than any other flight simulator...yes even over P3D but I predict it won't be long before P3Dv4 becomes the flight school standard. I also build units for the EAA Young Eagles clubs and X-Plane 11 is in demand there as well.
Ted

[bbrz]

Have to disagree..
Being a flight model designer for both platforms since many years I can assure you that x-plane isn't any better than FSX concerning the flight models.
And again, crosswind handling in x-plane still isn't realistic (and simply awful in the heavies). Fine tuning airplane behaviour at the very edge (and beyond) the envelope is also easier in FSX.

Furthermore please note that flightsimulators are generally used as procedure trainers and they don't necessarily need to have leading edge flight dynamics.
Even the 'real' simulators are sometimes way off in important areas.

[warchild]

Being a flight model designer for both platforms since many years I can assure you that x-plane isn't any better than FSX concerning the flight models.
And again, crosswind handling in x-plane still isn't realistic (and simply awful in the heavies). Fine tuning airplane behaviour at the very edge (and beyond) the envelope is also easier in FSX.

Furthermore please note that flightsimulators are generally used as procedure trainers and they don't necessarily need to have leading edge flight dynamics.
Even the 'real' simulators are sometimes way off in important areas.

Youve designed flight models for many years?? Damn but i wish people would credit their engineers.. I've done a few myself:
all Iris planes from 2006 - 2012
OzX Grumman Goose Redux
Classic Wings Sopwith camel
Classic wings edgley optica
Lionheats Pasped
Our own SOH P-61B
And this little guy below.. X-plane cant do the one below, but neither can FSX. Just ask any or the many who tried to copy me.. Pretty cool huh??


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCP4c-A4E9c

[bbrz]

I've done a few myself: all Iris planes from 2006 - 2012??
Apparently they couldn't replace you since IRIS did steal FDEs from other companies and/or used great parts from FDEs from other companies, like in case of the Grob 115.
Btw, the Christen Eagle was really great!

[warchild]

Apparently they couldn't replace you since IRIS did steal FDEs from other companies and/or used great parts from FDEs from other companies, like in case of the Grob 115.
Btw, the Christen Eagle was really great!

Indeed it was.. I cant take credit though. I started the fde and then fell ill so it was taken over by my associate who actually proposed the eagle to david.. i do hope you;ll forgive me but i can no longer remember the gentlemans name.. So I dont know where you heard that they stole from other companies.. The grob came after my time though.. I can assure you however that i created every flight model from scratch, with many of them taking up too nine months to build.. No, they werent great. We al start somewhere and learn right?? but i eventually got better.. The reasons for my leaving were simple. I didnt want to program in dcs.. I thought it was folly then and i still think its stupid.. They did replace me though with whom i dont know.. Truth told, The P-61B is the first plane ive developed for both fsx and p3d since before i left iris. I'm happy to say it flies exactly the same in both programs.. Its still in development however so please stay tuned. In the meantime i and my team are working with another member here on building an rf-61 reporter.. that should be getting released around march or april of next year. I've been building the flight model in p3d but it translates directly back to fsx without any problems, though i;ll have my partner go over it in case i miss something..

[bbrz]

So I dont know where you heard that they stole from other companies..
I compared the FDE from the Grob with the FDE from a different company FDE (for a different plane) and was surprised how many items and even complete section from the airfile they had used.
I contacted them and IRIS and they told me that this wasn't the first time but they couldn't do anything about it. Didn't hear anything from IRIS....nevertheless I'd love to get my two-seater F-16 back!
IIRC John Cagle did a nice Sukhoi FDE a long time ago as well.

[warchild]

I compared the FDE from the Grob with the FDE from a different company FDE (for a different plane) and was surprised how many items and even complete section from the airfile they had used.
I contacted them and IRIS and they told me that this wasn't the first time but they couldn't do anything about it. Didn't hear anything from IRIS....nevertheless I'd love to get my two-seater F-16 back!
IIRC John Cagle did a nice Sukhoi FDE a long time ago as well.
You and me both, but you see, the f-16 was made by a third party and distributed through Iris. When that third part pulled out, the f-16 went with them.. it was a wonderful plane though..

And John was one of my advisers on the su-37. We have slightly different ways of approaching things, but none the less, he was an invaluable help and a good teacher..

[txnetcop]

Being a flight model designer for both platforms since many years I can assure you that x-plane isn't any better than FSX concerning the flight models.
And again, crosswind handling in x-plane still isn't realistic (and simply awful in the heavies). Fine tuning airplane behaviour at the very edge (and beyond) the envelope is also easier in FSX.

Furthermore please note that flightsimulators are generally used as procedure trainers and they don't necessarily need to have leading edge flight dynamics.
Even the 'real' simulators are sometimes way off in important areas.

Sorry my friend, your explanation does not cover enough detail to over-ride what I know to be fact. I do agree that tuning airplane behavior is easier in FSX with the FDE and it is powerful but A2A and other developers have proven that more more programming is required to take in various factors of just the prop itself. Other considerations are significant such as inflow factors, axial and angular flow conservation of momentum. In short what blade element theory takes in to consideration is exactly how the model flies in a wind tunnel-which would be more accurate. I also admit that many things in a simulator just absolutely cannot substitute for real airflow considerations in real life because no to days are alike when it comes to air factors on the prop, the engine/fuel mixture intake and other handling peculiarities. I suggest reading this since you are a design engineer: http://www-mdp.eng.cam.ac.uk/web/library/enginfo/aerothermal_dvd_only/aero/propeller/prop1.html
Ted

[MZee1960]

P3DV4.1 is a very nice sim and I was anxious to update to it.........until I started looking at installing add-ons, specifically aircraft.
It seems there are as many ways to install aircraft into P3DV4 as users, and each method reads like a novel.
Whatever happened to copy and paste the aircraft folder into the simobjects folder and fly ?

I am sure there must be somewhere a post with clear, concise, step by step instructions on how to correctly install aircraft into P3D....
..........I just haven't found it yet, ....... and until I do, I'm sticking with FSX, as I have lots of addons I risk losing through improper installs.

[henrystreet]

P3DV4.1 is a very nice sim and I was anxious to update to it.........until I started looking at installing add-ons, specifically aircraft.
It seems there are as many ways to install aircraft into P3DV4 as users, and each method reads like a novel.
Whatever happened to copy and paste the aircraft folder into the simobjects folder and fly ?

I am sure there must be somewhere a post with clear, concise, step by step instructions on how to correctly install aircraft into P3D....
..........I just haven't found it yet, ....... and until I do, I'm sticking with FSX, as I have lots of addons I risk losing through improper installs.

There are a lot of legacy FSX aircraft that work fine. As long as they don't have .dll or .gau files. These can be "dragged and dropped" if you prefer. Be sure to get the effects, fonts, sounds, etc.

For new addons, seems like a lot of the developers are using the legacy "install in the main P3D" folder method. Mostly because of the complexity in adapting file paths in the xml install method.

I have several aircraft moved over to v4 using the addon.xml method but it is fully manual work. Milviz, Carenado, Simworks Studios are all recommending to stay with the legacy install mode with their new v4 products.

Hope this helps. There are several very knowledgeable people around here and Avsim.

[MZee1960]

I cannot comment on which way is 'correct' as I don't have P3DV4 yet. I have read in various posts that the 'add on xml' is the recommended method by LM for future proofing reasons (eliminating re-installation of addons when P3D updates occur). Some say this 'addon xml' method, besides being very labor intense, is also creating a bit of a mess in their folder structure. The legacy 'install in the main P3D folder' method makes the most sense and seems to be the simplest to understand, but the thought of having to re-install all addons with each P3D update, as I understand it, sends shivers up my spine.

[Daube]

You can still install aircrafts and sceneries exactly like you have ever done in the past with any other sim (FSX, FSX-SE, P3Dv1 to v3).
P3Dv4 simply allows new alternative ways to install, additionally from the traditional method.
Some installers take the new methods into consideration.

For example, the Flying Station Sea Fury for P3Dv4 got installed in my documents, along with all its gauges and sounds. As a consequence, after my drive crash and total loss of P3Dv4, I installed a new drive and reinstalled P3Dv4 from scratch... and the Sea Fury was already there in the hangar on first launch.

Basically, the \My Documents\Prepar3D v4 Add-ons\ folder becomes an alternative to the main Prepar3D v4 install folder, and P3Dv4 is fully aware of it. It will look over there automatically to check if anything is installed in there.
The Sea Fury appears in there as a simlpe folder, which contains a "Simobject" and an "Effect" folder inside.
There is also a add-on.xml that looks like this:

<SimBase.Document Type="AddOnXml" version="4,0" id="add-on">
<AddOn.Name>Sea Fury</AddOn.Name>
<AddOn.Description>Flying Stations Sea Fury.</AddOn.Description>
<AddOn.Component>
<Category>SimObjects</Category>
<Path>SimObjects</Path>
</AddOn.Component>
<AddOn.Component>
<Category>Effects</Category>
<Path>Effects</Path>
</AddOn.Component>
</SimBase.Document>

It's nothing complex, the xml simply tells to P3D the title of this addon, and the path to the simobject and effect folder.
With a few copy-paste, it's easy to create such an add-on.xml file for any addon, just by changing the titles and such.

[henrystreet]

For example, the Flying Station Sea Fury for P3Dv4 got installed in my documents, along with all its gauges and sounds. As a consequence, after my drive crash and total loss of P3Dv4, I installed a new drive and reinstalled P3Dv4 from scratch... and the Sea Fury was already there in the hangar on first launch.

I think this is the huge advantage of the xml method. I have my "Prepar3d v4 Addons" folder on a totally separate drive. Definitely see why LM is trying to herd the developers to this methodology.

Some of the most complex addons, such as the Milivz Adv F-4J/S and the Simworks F-4B/N however do not support this installation method. I've talked to folks with both and they indicated there could be file paths hardcoded in the software that could "break" if not installed in the traditional way.

It's just a matter of time before the developers catch up. For now, I have "blended" installs.

[Bjoern]

I think this is the huge advantage of the xml method. I have my "Prepar3d v4 Addons" folder on a totally separate drive. Definitely see why LM is trying to herd the developers to this methodology.

Save for the "Effects" folder, this is also perfectly possible in FSX. Sadly, not many devs seem to know this, especially when it comes to Doug D.'s XML sound gauge. Granted, it does require good path management skills, but the gain in efficiency is very much worth it.

[strykerpsg]

So, after all the great advice and input, thanks by the way, I finally committed to P3Dv4. I am now in the throws of re-installing the huge Orbx library converted from my FSS orders and their painfully slow download speeds. However, what I am realizing, is with the terrain, mesh and weather add-ons, P3Dv4 and FSX are both HDD hogs.

So, I query a final question on my ongoing build....what SSD HHD would you guys recommend? I am seeking a 1+TB and looking for the best speed regarding load up and flying long distance FSX routes. Also, once all the add-ons are installed, how easy is it to port over the new P3Dv4 install onto it's new SSD HHD? Sorry, I guess I had 2 questions....just excited to be back flying in the virtual skies again.

Thanks in advance
Matt

[strykerpsg]

Also, am I reading correctly, that no PMDG products will port over from FSX to P3Dv4? That is most unfortunate if true, since I will most likely not want to pay for their beautiful 737 NGX again, but will sorely miss her.

[rvn817j]

So, after all the great advice and input, thanks by the way, I finally committed to P3Dv4. I am now in the throws of re-installing the huge Orbx library converted from my FSS orders and their painfully slow download speeds. However, what I am realizing, is with the terrain, mesh and weather add-ons, P3Dv4 and FSX are both HDD hogs.

So, I query a final question on my ongoing build....what SSD HHD would you guys recommend? I am seeking a 1+TB and looking for the best speed regarding load up and flying long distance FSX routes. Also, once all the add-ons are installed, how easy is it to port over the new P3Dv4 install onto it's new SSD HHD? Sorry, I guess I had 2 questions....just excited to be back flying in the virtual skies again.

Thanks in advance
Matt

There has been a change with FTX / Orbx. You now install FTX Central, log in to your Orbx / FTX account in FTX Central and download / install through FTX Central.

If your motherboard is capable, you should use M2 memory which is much faster than SSD. I have M2 memory on my Christmas list!

Similar thing happened with the Majestic Q400 Dash 8. They upgraded it to v4, but there was an up charge. It is a lot of work so I sure can't fault them. Enjoy the new sim capabilities!

[strykerpsg]

There has been a change with FTX / Orbx. You now install FTX Central, log in to your Orbx / FTX account in FTX Central and download / install through FTX Central.

If your motherboard is capable, you should use M2 memory which is much faster than SSD. I have M2 memory on my Christmas list!

Similar thing happened with the Majestic Q400 Dash 8. They upgraded it to v4, but there was an up charge. It is a lot of work so I sure can't fault them. Enjoy the new sim capabilities!

Yep, going through the new Orbx setup now...

What is the M2 memory you're speaking of??

[Butcherbird17]

Yep, going through the new Orbx setup now...

What is the M2 memory you're speaking of??

I think he is talking about M.2 drives. The Samsung 960 is the fastest on the market right now, and 1 tb and up is going to cost you some
change. Don't know what board your running but it is x299 chipset so you could have up to 3 M.2 slots on the board. I think a good setup
would be a M.2 as the OS drive and then SSD's as storage for games and what ever else. I would still keep a mechanical drive as a backup
for the whole system just for peace of mind.

Joe

[strykerpsg]

I think he is talking about M.2 drives. The Samsung 960 is the fastest on the market right now, and 1 tb and up is going to cost you some
change. Don't know what board your running but it is x299 chipset so you could have up to 3 M.2 slots on the board. I think a good setup
would be a M.2 as the OS drive and then SSD's as storage for games and what ever else. I would still keep a mechanical drive as a backup
for the whole system just for peace of mind.

Joe

I saw the M.2 drives....ouch! Perhaps a more conventional SSD but in the 2 TB range will be best and a worthy compromise.

[thefrog]

I understand M2 are fast non-volatile SSD storage drives as opposed to volatile RAM, so I would suggest referring to RAM as ‘Memory’ and SSD/M2 as ‘Storage drives’ to eliminate confusion.

[strykerpsg]

The Frog, interestingly enough, they do indeed look like RAM sticks. I honestly had never heard of them till Ryan mentioned them. However, a bit too much for my blood currently. For their price point though, I would assume they are off the charts quick. I'll look for some in about 2 years.

[hairyspin]

M.2 drives plug directly into the motherboard SATA bus, so they don't need cables or power connections and get all the speed available. 1TB is still pricey.

[alehead]

M2 is simply a form factor for the devices. The interface can be different and indeed is. The fastest M2 drives on the market use PCI Express 4X and are miles faster than those M2 drives that utilize the SATAIII interface. If you are going to bother with an M2 drive, then it is most likely worth going for the fastest you can get. I for one will wait a little, to see how well the new form factor establishes itself...
I suppose it is going to be down to how much you can/want to spend on hardware...

A

[Stefano Zibell]

Why not XP11? not stirring but honestly this is something I have been thinking about for a bit, seems developers are starting to do stuff for it and outside of this little part of the world there seems to be a growing fan base.

That's the way I'm going.

[Dangerous Beans]

My advise would be to get a smaller M.2 for the boot drive, 250GB is plenty and get a larger conventional SSD later for P3D.
They are a bit pricey at the moment though due to a world wide shortage of NAND flash memory.

[blanston12]

My advise would be to get a smaller M.2 for the boot drive, 250GB is plenty and get a larger conventional SSD later for P3D.
They are a bit pricey at the moment though due to a world wide shortage of NAND flash memory.

My previous system I got was a 250gb with a larger magnetic data disk and regretted it as once I filled it up it was a bear to re-organize. I like having the sim itself on the SSD with all its scenery so it loads fast. The new system as a 1TB M.2 SSD that has the boot disk and P3D installed on it.

[strykerpsg]

My previous system I got was a 250gb with a larger magnetic data disk and regretted it as once I filled it up it was a bear to re-organize. I like having the sim itself on the SSD with all its scenery so it loads fast. The new system as a 1TB M.2 SSD that has the boot disk and P3D installed on it.

I too am leaning toward a dedicated SSD just for P3D. It's currently residing on an already almost maxed out 2 TB 2.5 HHD, using Disktrix to organize everything, runs decently. However, I still have yet to add aircraft to an already very robust Orbx/REX landscape and just feel a dedicated SSD would do much better towards accessing, updating, etc during the entire flight regimen.

My question to those who have done so in the past, how easy is it to migrate your entire P3D folder to a new HHD? Will I need to reassign much, aside from the desktop shortcut?

[rvn817j]

Cloning a hard drive is not too difficult with the right software. The last time I did it I used Acronis software. Here is a link to one of many videos - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlXkYKzY6vs .

There is also a huge online knowledge base for this type of action and several pieces of software that do the same thing as Acronis. I'm sure there is someone here at SOH that knows a good piece of freeware to accomplish this task.

[henrystreet]

I used this when recently upgrading to a larger SSD. The basic disk clone is free.

https://lifehacker.com/400615/easeus-disk-copy-makes-a-fast-clone-of-your-hard-drive

[Bjoern]

My question to those who have done so in the past, how easy is it to migrate your entire P3D folder to a new HHD? Will I need to reassign much, aside from the desktop shortcut?

Adapted shortcuts and registry entries, provided P3D doesn't use any fancy activation schemes.