SIM SKUNK WORKS F-84 - Developer Proposal

[Mach3DS]

I just recently saw that you are now selling this item on JustFlight website! I REALLY REALLY want to purchase this item. My ONLY issue with it (and it's not stopping me from purchasing) but I would love to work with you on updating the .mdl material settings. I really want to paint this thing with realistic metallic textures. Currently it's not setup to do so. Same goes for F-104...PM me if interested. I really think that this F-84 would do very well in a Korean Campaign along side the Milviz F-86F-30 using TacPack. These changes shouldn't adversely affect your current paints other than to improve them if you are using alpha channel at all right now. If I've got the wrong information please correct me. I'm going off of asking another very respected and experienced painter who owns it. Thank you for your time!

[WarHorse47]

I'd be curious to know if the JF product still requires the same SSW registration key or if they've changed their process.

I purchased mine from SSW when it was first released. I shortly discovered that my ISP would not allow their e-mails, so I had to resort to FB to contact them and get my registration key. Then it seemed that whenever something changed on my system, I had to get an updated key. It became such a hassle, I put the aircraft offline and haven't flown it since.

[DaveQ]

I just recently saw that you are now selling this item on JustFlight website! I REALLY REALLY want to purchase this item. My ONLY issue with it (and it's not stopping me from purchasing) but I would love to work with you on updating the .mdl material settings. I really want to paint this thing with realistic metallic textures. Currently it's not setup to do so. Same goes for F-104...PM me if interested. I really think that this F-84 would do very well in a Korean Campaign along side the Milviz F-86F-30 using TacPack. These changes shouldn't adversely affect your current paints other than to improve them if you are using alpha channel at all right now. If I've got the wrong information please correct me. I'm going off of asking another very respected and experienced painter who owns it. Thank you for your time!

Rick, I can get a reasonably good match to a worn natural metal finish with both these. Both, unlike the original Milviz Sabre, are set up for spec and reflectivity but most of the metallic properties derive from the spec. To get reflectivity on the F-84 the alpha channel has to be very dark as it is set low; conversely spec is set very high. This is the way Alessandro Barbarini has set it up for them so I'm not sure the original paints shipped with the model would work so well. But I'm sure the SSW team would be happy for you to put your own settings on the .mdl file for your own use as you are the genius at producing polished metal, no doubt! Whether they would be happy for this new model to be shared I obviously cannot say.

Best regards

DaveQ

[hschuit]

I'd be curious to know if the JF product still requires the same SSW registration key or if they've changed their process.

I purchased mine from SSW when it was first released. I shortly discovered that my ISP would not allow their e-mails, so I had to resort to FB to contact them and get my registration key. Then it seemed that whenever something changed on my system, I had to get an updated key. It became such a hassle, I put the aircraft offline and haven't flown it since.

After reading the system requirements on the JF site, my conclusion is that the same horrible SSW licensing keys are used if you buy from JF. I can imagine you gave up, my F-104/Harrier keys expired too many times when something changed in my PC BIOS/hardware settings so I stopped requesting new keys.

[Mach3DS]

Actually that's very good input DaveQ! Since I don't have the model I can't say for sure. I'm relying on word of mouth from guys like you who are expert repainters. But I do trust your judgement. If I can be done, then that's all that's needs to be. Does this model use a FRESNEL to affect specular only in the exterior textures?

[odourboy]

I just recently saw that you are now selling this item on JustFlight website! I REALLY REALLY want to purchase this item. My ONLY issue with it (and it's not stopping me from purchasing) but I would love to work with you on updating the .mdl material settings. I really want to paint this thing with realistic metallic textures. Currently it's not setup to do so. Same goes for F-104...PM me if interested. I really think that this F-84 would do very well in a Korean Campaign along side the Milviz F-86F-30 using TacPack. These changes shouldn't adversely affect your current paints other than to improve them if you are using alpha channel at all right now. If I've got the wrong information please correct me. I'm going off of asking another very respected and experienced painter who owns it. Thank you for your time!

Hey Rick,

I have both and done a couple of F-104 repaints. I think they support what you need to get your metallic gleams diffuse + alpha and spec + alpha, including the setting for environment reflection. - Brian

https://s26.postimg.org/kbv3l3xd5/SSW_CF-104_Paint.jpg

[Mach3DS]

Thanks gentlemen.... I'll trust your input and pull the trigger....now which one?

[odourboy]

I'm a sucker for the zipper but I think the hog is the better model both inside and out.

EDIT - but before you do, make sure you can get the hog paint kit, cuz I can't find one for it.

[ZsoltB]

Exterior things:
Unfortunately, the "Hog" pilot can not be removed!
Just electric carter!

[jeansy]

I'm a sucker for the zipper but I think the hog is the better model both inside and out.

EDIT - but before you do, make sure you can get the hog paint kit, cuz I can't find one for it.

last page

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php/106378-SSW-REPUBLIC-F-84F-quot-Thunderstreak-quot-for-P3D-x64-v4-available

[DaveQ]

Actually that's very good input DaveQ! Since I don't have the model I can't say for sure. I'm relying on word of mouth from guys like you who are expert repainters. But I do trust your judgement. If I can be done, then that's all that's needs to be. Does this model use a FRESNEL to affect specular only in the exterior textures?

Fresnel is set for spec and reflective.

DaveQ

PS. For which I prefer see signature!:very_drunk:

[Bjoern]

By now, ModelConverterX should be capable enough to just change the material properties in the .mdl yourself.
This leaves the issue of distribution, but maybe politely asking the devs is all it takes.

[odourboy]

I'm not sure that would work on SSW models. I once tried to simply adjust the model radius on their F104 and that broke their activation scheme. I doubt you could alter the .mdl in any way and have it work.

[SSW1]

After reading the system requirements on the JF site, my conclusion is that the same horrible SSW licensing keys are used if you buy from JF. I can imagine you gave up, my F-104/Harrier keys expired too many times when something changed in my PC BIOS/hardware settings so I stopped requesting new keys.

My i ask how many times your key has been invalidated before your patience ended ?
Most of users that had to ask for regenerate a key did it once, very very few had to do it several times.
Most of time keys are sent within minutes, sometime we delay due to time zone, a New Zeland or Australian guy most probably asks for a key when here is night.
Our licensing procedure may seem "odd" or even "horrible", however it protects user withdrawal/refund right and also us against piracy, more over it adheres perfectly to Italian and European laws in this field.
We have more than thousand of users and most of them are pretty much happy with our licensing procedure and support we give them, we never hoped to hit 100%.
regards
/SSW
BTW:
To those who will want to read our refund policy is below, as aside note i can quote what one the largest world wide publisher has said about our policy:

I really wish we had an actual law like you mentioned in your link, here in the U.S.!


SIM SKUNK WORKS WITHDRAWAL AND REFUND POLICY

GENERAL CONSIDERATIONS
According to Italian and European laws if the customer receives the activation key is meant that the software is "unsealed" and thus looses the right of withdrawal and refund because it is a necessary condition for it that the software is returned certainly and "sealed."
SSW complying with the law, protecting his resources and customers right, leaves freedom to buy the product, test it (with a reasonable time limit) and decide whether "unseal" or not, which occurs with the request of the activation key, request that can be delayed at will by the customer.
Instruction for automatic or manual activation key request is written clearly on the documentation on the site site under "How to.".

REFUND CONDITIONS
Having said the above, the refund may be requested if:
It has not gone more than 14 days from the day of purchase
It was not asked and sent the software activation key

JURISPRUDENCE ON THE RIGHT OF WITHDRAWAL AND REFUND
Article 55, paragraph 2, letter. d) of Legislative Decree no. 206/2005, states that "is excluded the application of the articles on the right of withdrawal in cases of " supply of audiovisual products or computer software unsealed by consumer."
Is widely accepted by jurisprudence that can be considered as still sealed software, one that, despite having been downloaded directly from the manufacturer in the form of self-installing file, requires the installation of the product on your personal computer and the subsequent final activation by inserting special codes provided by the same manufacturer or distributor.
In such cases, the software installed but activated with the key can not still be considered "immaterial" sealed and the consumer can not be given the right of withdrawal.
The rule seems appropriate, otherwise no one could be certain that the request of the right of withdrawal is not a pretext to obtain a refund and keep using the product, in fact it is not possible to ascertain the necessary condition to the withdrawal, the return of unsealed product itself.

[SSW1]

I'd be curious to know if the JF product still requires the same SSW registration key or if they've changed their process.

I purchased mine from SSW when it was first released. I shortly discovered that my ISP would not allow their e-mails, so I had to resort to FB to contact them and get my registration key. Then it seemed that whenever something changed on my system, I had to get an updated key. It became such a hassle, I put the aircraft offline and haven't flown it since.

It happens more and more often that mail providers block the messages that contain our attachments, this could be reasonable as long as the same providers alerted the sender or recipient that the message was blocked giving the reason why, unfortunately this does not happen and creates some problems with our users who blame us for the lack of reception, we apologize but is out of our control.
It would be good for these users to complain with providers that do not respect the rules.
/SSW

[aeronca1]

As a computer programmer, anything that is copy protected in any way or form will never ever land on my system. Any scheme is trivial to overcome if you have even a modicum of skill. This is why copy protection disappeared many, many years ago on productivity software (Word Processing, Database and Spreadsheet programs). Copy protection serves only to make life difficult for legitimate owners.

[WarHorse47]

It happens more and more often that mail providers block the messages that contain our attachments, this could be reasonable as long as the same providers alerted the sender or recipient that the message was blocked giving the reason why, unfortunately this does not happen and creates some problems with our users who blame us for the lack of reception, we apologize but is out of our control.
It would be good for these users to complain with providers that do not respect the rules.
/SSW"Been there, done that" and got nowhere. Sorry.

It would be good if SSW could change the product registration process. That you do have in your control.

I applaud SSWs efforts to combat piracy and loved the Hog, but the registration key exchange process just didn't work for me in light of the e-mail issue with my ISP.

[hschuit]

My i ask how many times your key has been invalidated before your patience ended ?
Most of users that had to ask for regenerate a key did it once, very very few had to do it several times. (...)

At least 5 times for each of the 3 SSW addons I have, from 2011 when I bought the F-104S till ca. 2015 when I gave up. I fully agree that SSW was usually very responsive sending new keys but that is not my point. I just find it too frustrating when I want to launch the addon I own and payed for and I can't because the key is invalid. I really do not want to continue this debate, I can live without SSW addons, there are enough other addons to enjoy. Obviously SSW has every right to use whatever DRM they want but I would start buying SSW product again the moment SSW would adopt the JF wrappers (which are also well protected against piracy but much more user friendly).

Cheers, Henk Schuitemaker.

[WarHorse47]

My i ask how many times your key has been invalidated before your patience ended ?
Most of users that had to ask for regenerate a key did it once, very very few had to do it several times...With my single purchase at least 4 times over 7 months.

I never could understand what triggered having an invalid registration key in the first place. I had only assumed it was related to updates to my OS, hardware or drivers.

[Mach3DS]

Guys thanks for replies. I definitely didn't anticipate this turning into a discussion about the product protection but it's been valuable nonetheless. I didn't realize that it was such a hassle to get installed. Unless someone can convince me otherwise, I too will avoid these products. Not out of malice I think they look amazing, but I too am utterly and completely done with these types of invasive, and overly time consuming methods of "protection". I've never purchased from SSW before, so I'm sorry if this is a sore spot for some. I'm unwilling to pay upwards of $60 for an add-on I can't install or uninstall or change out PC parts at will and not be able to be up and running immediately upon completion. Good luck to you all. SSW, highly recommend you switch to something less cumbersome. This is the sole reason I'm not purchasing. Your work looks amazing and from what I've read they are great aircraft. All the best,

Rick

[SSW1]

Guys thanks for replies. I definitely didn't anticipate this turning into a discussion about the product protection but it's been valuable nonetheless. I didn't realize that it was such a hassle to get installed. Unless someone can convince me otherwise, I too will avoid these products. Not out of malice I think they look amazing, but I too am utterly and completely done with these types of invasive, and overly time consuming methods of "protection". I've never purchased from SSW before, so I'm sorry if this is a sore spot for some. I'm unwilling to pay upwards of $60 for an add-on I can't install or uninstall or change out PC parts at will and not be able to be up and running immediately upon completion. Good luck to you all. SSW, highly recommend you switch to something less cumbersome. This is the sole reason I'm not purchasing. Your work looks amazing and from what I've read they are great aircraft. All the best,

Rick

every opinion deserves respect, as we have said we do not have the claim to make everyone happy, we do not target 100%, we are not business oriented, better some less customer but also some less concern. We will bear not to have you among our customers.
/SSW

[Mach3DS]

every opinion deserves respect, as we have said we do not have the claim to make everyone happy, we do not target 100%, we are not business oriented, better some less customer but also some less concern. We will bear not to have you among our customers.
/SSW

Completely understand. No bad feelings here! Good luck in your endeavors.

[mikewmac]

Guys thanks for replies. I definitely didn't anticipate this turning into a discussion about the product protection but it's been valuable nonetheless. I didn't realize that it was such a hassle to get installed. Unless someone can convince me otherwise, I too will avoid these products. Not out of malice I think they look amazing, but I too am utterly and completely done with these types of invasive, and overly time consuming methods of "protection". I've never purchased from SSW before, so I'm sorry if this is a sore spot for some. I'm unwilling to pay upwards of $60 for an add-on I can't install or uninstall or change out PC parts at will and not be able to be up and running immediately upon completion. Good luck to you all. SSW, highly recommend you switch to something less cumbersome. This is the sole reason I'm not purchasing. Your work looks amazing and from what I've read they are great aircraft. All the best,

Rick

+1 My sentiments exactly.

[DagR]

Well, I have a great ISP and I have Mario on FB messenger or email faster than the speed of light and unless he has his dinner, the key will be there pretty fast ;-)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Mach3DS]

Well, I have a great ISP and I have Mario on FB messenger or email faster than the speed of light and unless he has his dinner, the key will be there pretty fast ;-)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Dag, if this is true then you've got my attention. I'll do FB messenger. That is basically immediate.

[SSW1]

Dag, if this is true then you've got my attention. I'll do FB messenger. That is basically immediate.
Just to mention that we also watch the help desk constantly, all days, Sunday included from 8 to 23 CET, answers are given normally within minutes.

/SSW

[DaveQ]

Well, I have a great ISP and I have Mario on FB messenger or email faster than the speed of light and unless he has his dinner, the key will be there pretty fast ;-)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


I second that. Just asked for a set of new registry keys because I found mine were no longer working (?switch to Windows 10) and got a reply earlier today. Not light speed but it is Sunday.... And Mario's always been very helpful to me in the past as well.

Just my humble opinion.

DaveQ

[ZsoltB]

Hi All,

Someone will tell me what exe files need to install the model
Need a sequence!
Unfortunately, there is no TP gun and tanker function

Thank you,
Zsolt

[PLUTO16]

Sorry for the huuuge delay,but I'm quite busy at the moment.
Normally I use alpha channel of diffuse (this is a rule in SSW is used since '104,and adopted largely around) for "metal" shining,and on metal paintings I sometimes use a specific fresnel.
Alpha channel works (as I suppose you know) "the darker it is,the metal it goes" :D Many developer used it on reverted,so...white->mirrors,black-->flat.
I think if it's combined with specular we reached a nice result,but it's always the right moment to get better!
So post me some examples of how you wish it will be done.
Thanks
Alessandro




I just recently saw that you are now selling this item on JustFlight website! I REALLY REALLY want to purchase this item. My ONLY issue with it (and it's not stopping me from purchasing) but I would love to work with you on updating the .mdl material settings. I really want to paint this thing with realistic metallic textures. Currently it's not setup to do so. Same goes for F-104...PM me if interested. I really think that this F-84 would do very well in a Korean Campaign along side the Milviz F-86F-30 using TacPack. These changes shouldn't adversely affect your current paints other than to improve them if you are using alpha channel at all right now. If I've got the wrong information please correct me. I'm going off of asking another very respected and experienced painter who owns it. Thank you for your time!

[Mach3DS]

Cool....I can only tell you based on the ModelConverterX outputs. But essentially it is the following:

1. Alpha Channel reflecting the inverse of the diffuse Alpha.
2. Alpha Channel set to 1 (or 100%) reflectivity. That gives you a 1:1 relationship in the alpha gradient. Meaning full black is 100% reflection.
3. Fresnel is set to affect ONLY specular.
4. Specular Map power set to somewhere from 50 to 64
5. A discrete 1:1 relationship of Specular texture to Diffuse texture counterpart. Meaning no global specular file that is assigned to the whole exterior. You need a custom spec file (or placeholder) for every single exterior texture. So if you have 4 exterior diffuse textures you would have 4 exterior specular textures as well.
6. All exterior parts get this settings. This allows the model to have a pseudo dynamic exterior materials that the texture artist can control using combinations of Alpha channel, specular and fresnel.

Even if the part is not a metal piece, it should still receive this material setting. This allows repaints the most flexibility to create aftermarket content. You might say, will that part is not reflective because of xyz reason...but if someone is trying to create a nice glossy enamel finish it will be impossible. However with these settings, the texture controls the reflection and specular shine. Giving the artist the ability to determine what type of surface the texture will render; rather than a static predetermined and fixed material setting from the 3D model.

I can post an image later.

[Mach3DS]

Ideally (and this is mostly for P3Dv4+) all you high end payware or freeware developers would band together and unite under a banner of common consent to create some kind of a letter to LM and request that they convert their rendering engine to PBR or Differed shading. This would eliminate the need for so many textures and would move the Reflection and Specular into a single file.


This moves us from this (P3D):

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8449/29617307322_0573da0d29_o.jpg


To This (DCS):

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/878/27295076998_55f717d066_o.jpg

Both are my textures. I would implore all the devs to be asking/requesting/begging LM to move the GFX engine to PBR or differed shading.

[PLUTO16]

Cool....I can only tell you based on the ModelConverterX outputs. But essentially it is the following:

1. Alpha Channel reflecting the inverse of the diffuse Alpha.
2. Alpha Channel set to 1 (or 100%) reflectivity. That gives you a 1:1 relationship in the alpha gradient. Meaning full black is 100% reflection.
3. Fresnel is set to affect ONLY specular.
4. Specular Map power set to somewhere from 50 to 64
5. A discrete 1:1 relationship of Specular texture to Diffuse texture counterpart. Meaning no global specular file that is assigned to the whole exterior. You need a custom spec file (or placeholder) for every single exterior texture. So if you have 4 exterior diffuse textures you would have 4 exterior specular textures as well.
6. All exterior parts get this settings. This allows the model to have a pseudo dynamic exterior materials that the texture artist can control using combinations of Alpha channel, specular and fresnel.

Even if the part is not a metal piece, it should still receive this material setting. This allows repaints the most flexibility to create aftermarket content. You might say, will that part is not reflective because of xyz reason...but if someone is trying to create a nice glossy enamel finish it will be impossible. However with these settings, the texture controls the reflection and specular shine. Giving the artist the ability to determine what type of surface the texture will render; rather than a static predetermined and fixed material setting from the 3D model.

I can post an image later.

Sorry but I don't see the point.
The way my texturing works is exactly as you stated. Every part has it's own place on a 4 parts dds (diffuse,alpha/diffuse,specular/alpha specular and obviously bump).
You can do whatever you want,is fully customizable.
If you like,you can make metal shining also the tyres.
Al this salad is mixed with a fresnel you can setup by your choice,if you wish.
Correct me If i understood wrong.
Cheers,
Alessandro

[Mach3DS]

IF that's how you have it, that's great! I'm having to rely on others to ask them for input. I don't own it remember. :engel016: That is great.

[PLUTO16]

In this example,the difference between the 2 variants is only texturing.
The variables on models are "opened" so you can choose what to do with surfaces.

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=62590&stc=1

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=62591&stc=1

[PLUTO16]

IF that's how you have it, that's great! I'm having to rely on others to ask them for input. I don't own it remember. :engel016: That is great.

Ok,now I got the point.

Yes,I do confirm,all our models are flexible by this point of view.

And it's how it should be,I can not see the point to lock a surface on a preset.

Sorry if I was not able to understand your question promtly, mainly because for me it's obvious that these things must work this way!

Cheers

[PLUTO16]

Here an example of a "shiny" variant.

Diffuse:

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=62593&stc=1

Alpha-Diffuse:

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=62594&stc=1

Specular:

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=62595&stc=1

Alpha-specular:

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=62596&stc=1

[Mach3DS]

I love your single texture layout!

Could you show me this skin in the sim?

[PLUTO16]

I love your single texture layout!

Could you show me this skin in the sim?


http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=62598&stc=1

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=62599&stc=1

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=62600&stc=1

[Mach3DS]

Thank you good sir.

[PLUTO16]

Thank you good sir.

You're welcome.

[DennyA]

On a side-note, I was listening to an interview with LM from the recent flight sim con and they mentioned PBR is on the upcoming features list.

[Mach3DS]

On a side-note, I was listening to an interview with LM from the recent flight sim con and they mentioned PBR is on the upcoming features list.

This is the best news I've heard all day! Can you point me to that interview?

[DennyA]

It was mentioned in this (interesting throughout) podcast:
https://pcflight.net/episode-13-lockheed-martin-prepar3ds-adam-breed/