AF Scrub/J. Beckwith F-51H revisited

[l'iguane]

I have been playing with the F-51 from Jerry Beckwith/AF Scrub.

Sorting out the mapping with grid from a given livery (as I always do when no templates are available)
http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=52908&stc=1

Then adjusting the MDL properties with MDL Mat
http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=52909&stc=1

AF Scrub added a texture to the canopy so I determined the exact mapping as well (involving many many testing)
http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=52910&stc=1

Working on a metal template from now, here is a WIP shot
http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=52911&stc=1

Not sure what to plan yet for this F-51, probably a few liveries from ANG. I have also a few What-If ideas in mind.

L'iguane

[Mick]

I had no idea that Scrubby ever did anything with Jerry's P-51H (or F-51, as it was for most of its service life in the classic era.)

I wonder if all those USAF and ANG skins I painted for it will still work on Scrubby's version. Where did you find that? I'd like to check out the textures and find out if they're compatible. This has long been one of my most favorite classic era planes. I like it enough to have painted a couple dozen skins for it.

[l'iguane]

Hello Mick,

I sent you this model, quite a long ago, to turn it reflective, as it was queuing in my mind. I made the move yesterday !

The whole plane can be found here : https://www.flightsim.com/vbfs/fslib.php?do=copyright&fid=162358
And luckily, the mapping remains unchanged so your liveries will work with this model :jump:


Cheers
L'iguane

[l'iguane]

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=52922&stc=1

First livery - clean for testing purpose, still have to work on a highly weathered version

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=52923&stc=1

L'iguane

[l'iguane]

NACA test flight
http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=52932&stc=1

WIP of the weathered template
http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=52933&stc=1

L'iguane

[Mick]

Hello Mick,
I sent you this model, quite a long ago, to turn it reflective, as it was queuing in my mind. I made the move yesterday !
The whole plane can be found here : https://www.flightsim.com/vbfs/fslib.php?do=copyright&fid=162358
(https://www.flightsim.com/vbfs/fslib.php?do=copyright&fid=162358)And luckily, the mapping remains unchanged so your liveries will work with this model :jump:
Cheers
L'iguane

Whew! I don't think I could get motivated to do a couple dozen skins all over again! Too many!

My model and all my skins are reflective, but I don't remember making the model reflective. I thought it was reflective straight out of the box from Jerry B. Apparently not! It was so long ago that my memory seems to have failed me.

I really like the F-51. It's one of my favorite classic era fighters.

[l'iguane]

[QUOTE=Mick;1097911]Whew! I don't think I could get motivated to do a couple dozen skins all over again! Too many!

My model and all my skins are reflective, but I don't remember making the model reflective.

Because you used Jerry's original model (which was absolutely reflective)
I first investigated about painting his, then I discovered AF Scrub rework, which was not reflective out of the box. Maybe a different compilation or option while exporting from gmax, that's not my domain :dizzy:


Maryland ANG
http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=52956&stc=1

L'iguane

[SSI01]

Looking forward to this one. It's a forgotten mark with spectacular performance.

Aircraft Factory put one out some time ago, a good rendition but with as good as it is, I'm surprised they made the elementary mistake of putting the national insignia on the wrong lower wing.

[l'iguane]

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=52957&stc=1

L'iguane

[java2srv]

I really like the F-51. It's one of my favorite classic era fighters.

Me too! I've had Jerry's F-51H in my hangar for as long as I can remember! I was not aware of the AF Scrub model either. The F-51H is interesting to me because of the performance and flight model differences between it and the earlier P-51D. I've used the AirWrench tool that "Sparks" wrote for flight models for a long time also, I believe he's released an AirWrench 2 now.

I was not aware of Mick's liveries either, nice that they work with both models so I'm off to gather them. :running:

Thank you both for your work with this model!

Java:applause:

[l'iguane]

:ernaehrung004:

OHIO ANG - heavy weathering
http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=52958&stc=1

L'iguane

[l'iguane]

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=52961&stc=1

NH ANG

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=52962&stc=1

MASS ANG

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=52963&stc=1

L'iguane

[HorusJ]

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=52957&stc=1

L'iguane

Excellent! I'll take it! :jump::encouragement:

[l'iguane]

HorusJ :encouragement:

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=52969&stc=1

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=52970&stc=1

Civilian - N313H

L'iguane

[Mick]

What Mass. ANG unit does that skin depict?

The western Mass. unit (just down the road from my home) has always used red as the squadron color, sometimes with spinners in flight colors.

The Boston ANG unit has traditionally used light blue for their squadron color, but during at least some of their F-51H and F-86H years they used green for a time, as in those years the Westfield squadron was called the "Polish Guard" while the Boston squadron was called the "Irish Guard." The extensive application of yellow suggests a special scheme, as both units were typically much more conservative in their application of their colors.

That's a very attractive livery, but it really has me scratching my head.

Don't overdo the weathering. Most Air Guard units took pride in their aircraft and they didn't let then get very dirty. Of course, as they were fairly old airplanes, they did show some wear and tear.

[l'iguane]

Mick, for the mystery Massachusetts ANG, I found the P-51H profile below. I have no idea about the authenticity of it, I liked the color scheme enough to paint it. It it said to belong to 101st FIS, based at Logan Field, 1951...
Being not an ANG scheme expert myself, your comments/suggestions are very welcome :encouragement:

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=53013&stc=1

The hard weathered Ohio livery is kind of an experiment of mine, just for trial purpose. I agree ANG planes are usually looking clean and well cared, even on black and white pictures

L'iguane

[Mick]

Very interesting!

I see that the scheme comes from a livery offered in the RS Models plastic kit. I was out of the plastic model hobby before RS Models came along, so I have no idea whether they have a reputation for accuracy or not.

I searched Google Images and found a lot of pictures of that model box top and the decal illustration, but none of a real F-51 in those colors and markings.

I wondered if it might have been a plane from the Mississippi ANG (state 4-letter abbreviation MISS, which might be a simple typographical error) so I researched the Mississippi ANG. Their only fighter was the F-47 Thunderbolt, but after the Korean War they briefly flew the RF-51D (not H) before changing to the RF-84F. I could not find a picture of one of their RF-51D's.

I can't think of any other state with a four letter abbreviation that's only one letter different from Mass.

I think this must remain a mystery. The scheme might be real, though I doubt very much that it was ever a Mass ANG scheme, since I've been interested in the Mass. ANG for many years and have researched them deeply. It might have been a real livery from another ANG unit, attributed to the Mass ANG by mistake, or it might be an RS Models fantasy. I don't know what to think.

It sure is a pretty color scheme!

[Bomber_12th]

As the profile art mentions, the aircraft was part of the 101st Fighter Interceptor Squadron (FIS), 102nd Fighter Interceptor Group (FIG), where it served from 1951 until December 12, 1953, when the aircraft was destroyed - the pilot bailed out after running out of fuel. At the time, the accident report states that the aircraft was based out of Logan Airport, Boston, and that the aircraft came down 25 miles East/North East of Provincetown, MA.

The markings that the aircraft was painted in when this photo was taken (and that the artwork was modeled after) were not the norm - these were the types of markings/colors applied to F-51's used at gunnery meets as target-tugs (always denoted by painting the nose, tail and wing tips yellow).

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y282/Bomber_12th/P-51H/44-64347_zpsvtev8rtz.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/Bomber_12th/media/P-51H/44-64347_zpsvtev8rtz.jpg.html)

There were two Massachusetts ANG Squadrons that used the F-51H - the 101st FIS of the 102nd FIG, and the 131st FIS of the 104th FIG. Both fell under the command of the 67th Fighter Wing (which also included the 132nd FIS in Maine). The normal markings of these aircraft were overall bare metal with either green or red wing tips and tail surface tips, with different colored spinners.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y282/Bomber_12th/F-51H%2044-64491%20101st%20FIS%20MASS%20ANG%20P%20Paulsen%20v ia%20Isham_zps7ndnulzj.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/Bomber_12th/media/F-51H%2044-64491%20101st%20FIS%20MASS%20ANG%20P%20Paulsen%20v ia%20Isham_zps7ndnulzj.jpg.html)

[Mick]

Thanks John!

So it's a target tug from the Irish Guard! Whoot!

As for the standard squadron colors, the "Polish Guard" of the 131st always used red and still does, though I don't think they've called themselves the "Polish Guard" for several decades now.

The 101st traditionally used light blue, going back to the pre-WW2 era. (The 131st wasn't established until after the war.) For a while, when they called themselves the "Irish Guard," the 101st used green, with a shamrock added to the scheme during their F-86H period. Later they reverted to light blue, and when they moved from Logan in Boston out to Otis AFB in Falmouth, on Cape Cod, they took the name "Cape Codders." I don't recall when they made the move, but it was decades ago.

Alas, the 101st is gone, lost to financial exigency, and their last planes, F-15's, came west to replace the 131st's A-10's, where they now fly from Barnes Municipal in Westfield, whence I see them flying overhead every day. I have a special interest in the 131st because they're my (almost) local Air Guard unit. I've been watching their planes fly around since I was a toddler seeing their F-94's (and maybe their F-51H's, though I was too young to remember them), and I've been to many excellent air shows at their base.

If anyone shares my interest in the Air Guard, or just likes classic-era airplanes, you'll enjoy perusing this site about the planes and history of the Mass. ANG, with emphasis on the 131st. I've gotten a lot of my Air Guard skins from the photos on this site:

http://users.vermontel.net/~tomh/TEXT_FILES/104FW_Aircraft.html (http://users.vermontel.net/~tomh/TEXT_FILES/104FW_Aircraft.html)

[l'iguane]

Thanks John and Mick for investigating !

Uploading all the liveries above at the moment, will be available shortly.

I'm considering a few "what if" liveries, F-51H could have been exported under the Military Assistance Program (South America ? Asia ?) These liveries will need to be ferried to end user countries, lots a flight time ahead :encouragement:

L'iguane

[l'iguane]

What if Brunei had declared independance earlier and turned to the US instead of Commonwealth.
In a similar way to Indonesia, third world countries were dealing with both Western powers and USSR, therefore receiveing military assistance from one or the other, depending on political leaders choices and Coup d'état.

Royal Brunei Air Force F-51H, surplus from ANG, Military Assistance Program
Initially assigned to Air Defence, they were quickly re-tasked to COIN/CAS role where they had most of their operational career in the RBAF.

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=53090&stc=1

For unknown reasons, these planes were shipped to Europe then ferried to Brunei by the air.
Here is a F-51H with a Brunei civilian registration for the ferry flights following the route :
Francfort,Germany - Roma,Italy - Paphos,Cyprus - Koweit City - Mascate,Oman - Bombay - Calcutta - Bangkok - Brunei

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=53091&stc=1

Like Dominican Mustangs, Brunei's F-51H remained in service until late 80's with a midlife overhaul and upgrade done by Cavalier Aircraft Corporation technicians. F-51's kept their new low visibility grey until their withdrawal in 1990, replaced by newer turboprop Piper Enforcer
http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=53092&stc=1
http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=53093&stc=1

L'iguane

[java2srv]

I see the new liveries in the library! :jump::jump: Thank you! Will be trying them out this evening, and maybe a few screen captures.

Java :applause::applause:

[l'iguane]

Java, you're very welcome !

I hope you'll enjoy flying these :ernaehrung004:

L'iguane

[huub vink]

Nice work! Much appreciated. :encouragement:

Huub

[SteveB]

Was not the F51 used in Korea, I recall reading that a couple of Sqn's swapped out there P 80's too F51's so they could deal with the Yak 9's flown by the North Koreans ?

Steve

[l'iguane]

Was not the F51 used in Korea, I recall reading that a couple of Sqn's swapped out there P 80's too F51's so they could deal with the Yak 9's flown by the North Koreans ?

Steve

Steve,

According to what I read about F-51H, despite being more refined and offering better performance than F-51D, F-51Hs were never used in Korea because F-51D were already available in more quantities and had already proven their value in combat. As the H version was lighter for more performance it may have been less damage-tolerant than its counterpart D, especially as Korean mustangs were mainly use for close air support.

L'iguane

[SSI01]

L'iguane - enjoying your repaints very much indeed! Thank you for your additions to the existing aircraft file.

This is an interesting topic you raise, and it can be treated also as an elementary lesson in the economics of war. When WWII ended the USAAF/USAF found itself in possession of an imposing fleet of P-51s, some of which it retained, some it scrapped and some it mothballed. It also had a number of P-47Ds, bubble-tops. The P-47s cost more per unit to manufacture than the Mustangs, plus the R-2800 engine was more expensive to both manufacture and maintain than the Packard Merlin. It also had worse fuel mileage than the V-1710. When you add these things up it shows why the few ANG units that were issued P-47Ds after WWII kept them mostly for only a limited time. The P-47s in the inventory were disposed of as quickly as possible. The P-51s were kept because there were many more than the P-47s, and if they were lost to enemy ground fire, it didn't cost as much to replace one of those as it did to pull a P-47 out of an ANG unit and send it to Korea - although it would have been far superior to the P-51 as a ground attack aircraft, no doubt.

Even in the middle of a war, the purse strings matter.

BTW if you've ever seen a film called "Fighter Squadron," starring Edmond O'Brien and Robert Stack, it was shot in 1948 or 1949 at an ANG unit possibly in Kentucky or Tennessee. I may be wrong, I'm recalling the words of someone who was associated with the film (an AF type who did liaison between Republic Studios and the USAF/ANG and got the unit to do the flying sequences for the film). He said that film was a testament to many of the men who are seen flying those P-47s because about a year or so after the film was completed they converted to P-51s. Quite a few shipped out to Korea and many did not return.

Interesting note for trivia types - Republic Studios made the film about a Republic product.

[Mick]

Was not the F51 used in Korea, I recall reading that a couple of Sqn's swapped out there P 80's too F51's so they could deal with the Yak 9's flown by the North Koreans ?
Steve

Yes, the F-51 was used in Korea, but not to deal with the Yaks. (The F-82s and F-80s could handle them well enough.) It was used for ground attack.

The F-51 was brought in when the Air Force suddenly realized that it had just finished scrapping the last examples of the plane they really needed, the F-47 Thunderbolt. The Mustang wasn't a very good choice for the ground attack role, as its liquid cooling system made it very vulnerable to ground fire (an expensive lesson that the USAAF had already learned in WW2, when many P-51's and their pilots, including several top fighter aces, were lost to ground fire) but it was the only relatively slow fighter-bomber available and the F-80s were too fast to do the job with the desired precision, and they lacked endurance over the battlefield. (Despite that, the F-80 and F-84 were used in vast numbers in the ground attack role as the war went on, and they did the job quite well.)

All the Mustangs used in Korea were the older D model, and the Air Force had to scour the Air National Guard to get them back. The faster, lighter and less sturdy H models were retained at home for air defense until they could be replaced by jets - which were in short supply due to the war in Korea.

[Mick]

I've discovered something that might save someone some annoyance.

I've had the original Jerry Beckwith model installed since it was released in the fairly early days of FS9. I never installed Scrubby's version of it because I saw no need for it. So when I selected my favorites from l'Iguane's skins I didn't use the model that he supplied with them. I quickly discovered that when one of the new skins is applied to the original model, the top part of the vertical tail is not painted by the image on the texture file.

When I tried the new model with one of my old skins I found that the top of the tail doesn't display properly, sort of the flip side of the issue.

If you want your F-51H to wear my old skins and l'Iguane's new ones, you'll need both Jerry's original model and l'Iguane's update of Scrubby's in your aircraft folder. I named the original "model.JB" and the new one "model.AFS" and assigned each skin to the appropriate model in the aircaft.cfg file.

[l'iguane]

I've discovered something that might save someone some annoyance.

I've had the original Jerry Beckwith model installed since it was released in the fairly early days of FS9. I never installed Scrubby's version of it because I saw no need for it. So when I selected my favorites from l'Iguane's skins I didn't use the model that he supplied with them. I quickly discovered that when one of the new skins is applied to the original model, the top part of the vertical tail is not painted by the image on the texture file.

When I tried the new model with one of my old skins I found that the top of the tail doesn't display properly, sort of the flip side of the issue.

If you want your F-51H to wear my old skins and l'Iguane's new ones, you'll need both Jerry's original model and l'Iguane's update of Scrubby's in your aircraft folder. I named the original "model.JB" and the new one "model.AFS" and assigned each skin to the appropriate model in the aircaft.cfg file.

:encouragement: I didn't notice that

Thanks for the update Mick, will probably save one or many from an annoying troubleshooting
Cheers

L'iguane

[Mick]

L'iguane, I just sent one of your skins through the Wayback Machine: N313H has re-enlisted in the Army, where it first got that very attractive olive drab and white livery. I hope you like it!

[SteveB]

Yes, the F-51 was used in Korea, but not to deal with the Yaks. (The F-82s and F-80s could handle them well enough.) It was used for ground attack.

The F-51 was brought in when the Air Force suddenly realized that it had just finished scrapping the last examples of the plane they really needed, the F-47 Thunderbolt. The Mustang wasn't a very good choice for the ground attack role, as its liquid cooling system made it very vulnerable to ground fire (an expensive lesson that the USAAF had already learned in WW2, when many P-51's and their pilots, including several top fighter aces, were lost to ground fire) but it was the only relatively slow fighter-bomber available and the F-80s were too fast to do the job with the desired precision. (Despite that, the F-80 and F-84 were used in vast numbers in the ground attack role as the war went on, and they did the job quite well.)

All the Mustangs used in Korea were the older D model, and the Air Force had to scour the Air National Guard to get them back. The faster, lighter and less sturdy H models were retained at home for air defense until they could be replaced by jets - which were in short supply due to the war in Korea.

Hi Mick.
In the original article in August 1994 Air International, by Robert F Dore. It is stated that "many pilots complained that the F80 was too fast and lacked the Manoeuvrability and pleaded for prop driven aircraft to combat North Korea's Yak and Lavochkin's. By the autumn of 1552, two of the three F80 sqn's in Korea had been converted too F-51D Mustangs for a short period of time". I read this article many moons ago and forgot the D bit so I saw this thread I wondered if maybe this model was the correct one or not. I have since found the article again and realised that It was just me being forgetful.

Thanks for the info.

Steve

[l'iguane]

L'iguane, I just sent one of your skins through the Wayback Machine: N313H has re-enlisted in the Army, where it first got that very attractive olive drab and white livery. I hope you like it!

For sure I like it :wavey:
I would have sent you the N313H original templates if I had known !

L'iguane

[Mick]

Hi Mick.
In the original article in August 1994 Air International, by Robert F Dore. It is stated that "many pilots complained that the F80 was too fast and lacked the Manoeuvrability and pleaded for prop driven aircraft to combat North Korea's Yak and Lavochkin's... Steve

I'll bet I read that article back when that was the current issue!

I should've remembered about the F-80 and the comments by its pilots. But I'm old, I'm supposed to forget things.

The old F-82 had no trouble with the Yaks, though! Even in the daytime, while hauling around those big night fighter radar pickles and the operator with his equipment, they made quick work of the Yaks when they ran into them.

[Mick]

For sure I like it :wavey:
I would have sent you the N313H original templates if I had known !L'iguane

Thanks! But that's OK, it was an easy job to delete the N-number and add the in-service bits.

[l'iguane]

The fictious liveries of Brunei AF are uploaded and will be available shortly.

Cheers
L'iguane