Windows 10 Update Heads UP

[gman5250]

It was inevitable.

Today, Windows 10 carried out another one of its massive updates on my system. It came in quietly in the background and did its work...uninvited, and borked a few hours of design work I had open in 3DS Max in the boot.

The net result is that all of my personal settings and preferences have been re-set to Windows 10 default. These are settings that take quite a lot of time to tune to my specific requirements.

I have yet to assess the collateral damage, but I'm sure it will manifest itself along the way.
I know I'll catch grief from some here, but after many bouts with MS, I consider Win10 to be a decidedly unfriendly OS that prioritizes itself over the needs of the end user with utterly no regard to the damage these "security" updates cause.


I've put up this post as a HU for any and all running Windows 10. Proceed with caution.

[lownslo]

...I consider Win10 to be a decidedly unfriendly OS that prioritizes itself over the needs of the end user with utterly no regard to the damage these "security" updates cause.

Indeed. I have one Win10 system here I manage and that will be it for a few years. Will run the wheels off the Win 8.1 and Win 7 systems we have. Just tired of messing with MS's products (retiring next year and will no longer worry about my software working on MS platforms).

Good luck,

Greg

[hertzie]

Better stop having illusions about Microsoft's willing to become user-friendly. That will never happen. But on the other hand: where would we be without them??? And let's not talk about Apple.....

Count your blessings,

hertzie.

[euroastar350]

W7 64 for me with zero plans to upgrade

[vortex]

gman, take a look at O&O Shutup 10: https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10. It's free and allows you to easily set all of your personal and privacy settings in Windows 10 and then save them to reload later if another update resets them.

[stansdds]

Sorry to hear of this setback. My only computer with Windows 10 is an office laptop that I use for some, but not all, business applications. Windows 7 is looking pretty good right now, at least for flight sim use, but eventually we will all be forced into the Windows 10 box.

Hmmmm... forced into the Windows 10 box. Is this a good time for a Borg reference? My favorite is "I am Dyslexic of Borg. Fusistance is retile. Your ass will be laminated".

[Bjoern]

Creator's Update, I guess. Already installed that one when it was still on demand. Security and privacy settings needed reviewing, but other than that, zero issues. I have no idea how you guys manage to constantly bork up your computers.

[gman5250]

I have no idea how you guys manage to constantly bork up your computers.

If my computer were left alone, the way I went to great lengths to set it up, it would not get borked up at all. However, when MS and the lot whom insist on sliding in quietly and layering in code that helps Amazon, Google, Facebook and AdRoll assault my OS with AI predictive marketing and obnoxious click bait, things go south without my touching anything.

As I have stated before, I spent a lot of time and money this last winter rebuilding my system after an unauthorized intrusion moved my disk management to a remote location and borked up about two years of development work...again. :banghead:

I had nothing to do with any of the external hacks, which include MS and the above stated, that use my system as their own marketing playground. For those that think that things are otherwise and all puppies and roses...get a fricking reality check.

One Example...I've researched hundreds of examples of hacked databases.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jun/16/facebook-moderators-identity-exposed-terrorist-groups

I would be quite happy to have my system left to my own manipulations and control, and leave the updates for those that wish to receive them.

IMO.

[PHo17]

...
I would be quite happy to have my system left to my own manipulations and control, and leave the updates for those that wish to receive them.

IMO.

I have W7 and I decide myself which updates to download and install (usually only important security updates). Isn't that really possible with W10 anymore?

[gman5250]

I have W7 and I decide myself which updates to download and install (usually only important security updates). Isn't that really possible with W10 anymore?

I worked, at length, with a good tech friend last winter to insulate my system. New HD, new OS, new industrial strength security, TOR browser. Some other mods I won't discuss.

MS and the various other "entities" continuously run profiling algorithms that eventually find a chink in the armor. Last week I started getting the MS "update survey" pop up that cannot be shut down, blocked, ignored or dismissed. Don't forget the Win10 free popup that was actually coded to convert a no response to a yes. They dismissed that one as a programing error. Bollocks.

Finally, two days ago, while I was working MS just came in and ran the update. A prompt came up that told me I needed to re-boot, leaving zero option to refuse. As an ancillary benefit, the pop-up prevented me from saving the work I had up in 3DS Max.

It appears that MS is not allowing the end user to opt out of Win10 updates at this time. As of my last reading of the EULA, it is so stated.

At the end of the day, I originally opted in to Win10 voluntarily, so I have to cowboy up and take the consequences. If I had been able to foresee the long term negatives, I would have remained a Win7 holdout. Even at that, eventually MS will simply phase out support until the only thing left is the...errr...platform they provide.

It is one of the drawbacks of a virtual monopoly. IMO

[THibben]

I have W7 and I decide myself which updates to download and install (usually only important security updates). Isn't that really possible with W10 anymore?

Ditto that here. W7 works great for me.

Tom

[hairyspin]

My favorite is "I am Dyslexic of Borg. Fusistance is retile. Your ass will be laminated".

Very good indeed, ROTFL! :biggrin-new:

[bob407]

Thank you Gordon for all of this 'heads up' info. Very interesting and very much appreciated.

Bob

[gman5250]

Thanks Bob...that's the basic intent of the post. :encouragement:

[PHo17]

...
It is one of the drawbacks of a virtual monopoly. IMO

Thank you for the information. If there had been a FSX version and would be in future a P3D version for Linux I would have changed or I'd change OS immediatly.

[padburgess]

Hi gman

Feel your pain man. I just built myself a new rig, posted the specs on Orbyx prior to building it and was surprised by the number of people that said I should just go with Win10 as it was the "future". When I stated my case against it, I have it on my Microsoft Surface 4 and dislike it with a passion for the exact reason you have stated here, I was again surprised at the negative response I got from some quarters. The problem I have with it is you can't control your own computer. I happen to be a bit of a rebel I suppose as I have an intense dislike with being told what to do. Got me into all kinds of strife during my 20 year Air Force career.
So I have built my new machine and have installed Win7 Professional 64bit on it. Runs beautifully and I get to pick and choose the updates. I will probably get to a point where I "disconnect" my updates from Microsoft and go it alone. That worked fine for XP for years and I have no doubt it will work for this machine as well. A good firewall, good virus software and malware client and "GOOD" surfing protocols and things tend to be OK. If not then "format C:\" and start again.

Do you have the option of pulling the plug and starting again with Win7?

New machine:
Intel I7 6700K Skylake CPU
Asus H170M mATX motherboard
16GByte DDR4 RAM
6GByte Asus GeForce GTX1060 Graphics Card
500GByte Samsung SSD
2TByte HDD

Running FSX Acceleration
Orbyx World, Vector, Europe LC, North America & Alaska LC
All Orbyx North American sceneries minus Southern California plus Australia, New Zealand and Norway.

[Bjoern]

The thing about security is to not go overboard with it. A router firewall, proper antivirus, tight security/privacy settings in Windows, a popup blocker (plus clearing website cookies after every browser shutdown), proactive updating habit (get major updates before they're available for automatic updating; keep MS' update release schedule in mind and then look for updates manually) and liberal use of the Mk 1.25 cranium computing device (no, do not open every e-mail attachment; learn about what you're using and installing) and you're good to go. It's all about covering chockepoints, not wide open fields.

And if someone wants to really hack/manipulate/harm you, they will find a way anyway. As long as you're not a terminal in a government network, you're nothing but an IP address among millions and therefor hardly of interest compared to all those disease-ridden, wide open devices of the XP and Vista holdouts or update deniers.

[hairyspin]

Regarding automatic updates, the ongoing WannaCry horror is reason enough. Patches were issued in March, the thing went wild on unpatched systems in May. Just saying.

[johndetrick]

gman, take a look at O&O Shutup 10: https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10. It's free and allows you to easily set all of your personal and privacy settings in Windows 10 and then save them to reload later if another update resets them.

Thanks for the link to the software. Installed it on my laptop and my wifes. Works great! I was surprised at some of the menu options. And I'm a pretty techie guy.

[Aharon]

Gman,

I do not understand. I believe that any Windows operating system including Windows 10 has option allowing you to activate or deactivate the automatic update function. I set mine to deactivate automatic update function for Windows 10 so that I can update if I want at my own will, not Microsoft or anybody else.

Check your Windows 10 and deactivate the automatic update option.

Regards,

Aharon

[gman5250]

Good thread...thanks all for keeping it civil. :encouragement:

Answering a few of the points above.

I have multiple hard drives available:

Primary Win10 OS is located on a WD Black 5TB...only using 2TB at the moment. When 2TB SSD drives come down in price, I want to go that route for primary and task the 5TB spinner as a secondary.
Secondary is the Mushkin Chronos SSD, dedicated drive for the sim.
Storage is handled by an external 5TB device.

I do keep a second WD Black 2TB HD available in the box. This was the drive previously assigned as primary, but wiped out by another Win10 update and targeted a malicious hack. That was the one that moved my disk management to a remote server. Whom...I have no idea, but they were not nice. I have a ten minute rule. I would relish ten minutes in a locked cage with any individual that could be identified in these nefarious activities.

My intention is to do an industrial wipe and install Win7 on that drive, once it is sanitized.

At that stage I can run a dual boot system. The advantage will be access to GMAX archives and the ability to work with those models in Win7 where GMAX is 100% functional. Those models can be saved out to the external, and accessed from the Win10 drive as I need those models for conversion in 3DS Max.

I think that setup will suit my requirements.


Updates:
Believe me...I've used every trick available to disable the updates, all eventually were compromised by MS intrusions. I have been using ESET security since the new build and am actually very pleased with it's performance. This choice was prompted by a trusted tech friend who suggested that installation...with extreme prejudice. lol


In my current situation, I develop scenery and aircraft...specifically targeted to 64 bit platforms. I feel that it is imperative that I am "up to date" with regard to OS and drivers, so I take the risks involved. Sometimes that blows up, so I try to take those hurdles in stride.

I do however, maintain an extreme prejudice against any service, hardware, software provider who prioritizes their objectives of data mining over my efficient utilization of the TOOL that I have purchased. At the end of the day, the OS is a tool just like a saw or a hammer. I want it to function as a saw or a hammer and not compromise my time/energy by layering mining and profiling algorithms over my system tools. Over the course of the last five years, these assaults have cost me a tremendous loss of time, data, hard work and $$$$$.

Thus...my occasional tirades against the machine. :very_drunk:

[Dangerous Beans]

I think you can only turn the updates off in Win 10 Pro so if like me you have Win 10 home your getting the updates whether you want them or not.

[vortex]

I think you can only turn the updates off in Win 10 Pro so if like me you have Win 10 home your getting the updates whether you want them or not.

In Win 10 Pro, you can delay updates but not turn them off. That said, you can easily turn off driver updates (which often cause problems) but not security updates. It's possible to turn off the update service altogether but then you don't get important security updates. If you do manage to stop all updates, the next major update (like the Creators Update or whatever follows it) will not install until you are up to date with all the previous minor updates anyway. Better to allow the security updates to install a few at a time when they're available and then, if you have a problem, it will be much easier to troubleshoot what has caused it.

Also, as hairyspin pointed out earlier, the WannaCry ransomeware attack is a great example of why it's a bad idea to turn off security updates in Win 10 if you ever connect to the Internet.

[gman5250]

It just occurred to me, I neglected to include some information about my system.

I am not in Win10 Pro. I am in a less public version of the OS. Not going to share the specifics for reasons that concern...errr...security. :untroubled:

[hairyspin]

... the WannaCry ransomeware attack is a great example of why it's a bad idea to turn off security updates in Win 10 if you ever connect to the Internet.

Not just Win 10, any version of Windows still running. If you still run XP, there were more MS security patches released for it this past week. Same goes for Vista which got to the end of its supported life back in April. I know an organisation locked out of its data for a week by WannaCry, at who knows what cost: tinfoil trilbies or crossed fingers are just not enough.

[gman5250]

WannaCry is a good example when considering security updates.

The author of a malicious attack can use multiple tools to access secure systems. Vault 7 was a treasure trove of tools and techniques that are now widely distributed and used by third party, dark contractors.

The Win10, and previous EULA contracts inform the user that MS is free to sell your data to any and all entities whom may find your data valuable. The sale of your data runs the gamut from corporate clients to the various "agencies". Once remotely located, any proficient hacker can access your data.

In the case of one specific organization with access to top secret data, the trails to the "data" were protected with ridiculously shallow passwords like "password" on remote servers. When this reckless approach is utilized at multiple levels, the entire system becomes transparent and is monetized through black and gray markets on the wholesale level. It is ubiquitous.

Lately, DOS attacks have been the favored tool of various entities to gain advantage over websites and individuals whom are targeted for various reasons. If, for instance I, were a client of one of these targeted entities, I am immediately vulnerable to those same pressures...and have been in the recent past.

This is a reality that must be considered with serious attention to one's personal security.

I have, by necessity, remained "plugged in" in order to prepare a viable product for the market place. Therefore, I remain vulnerable. This is why I consider the MS "security updates" to be more in the area of a hack, than a legitimate effort to protect my data. The concept, on it's face, is laughable.

IMO

[hairyspin]

You can never make anything foolproof because fools are so smart. Or stoopid.

[zswobbie1]

WannaCry is a good example when considering security updates.


The Win10, and previous EULA contracts inform the user that MS is free to sell your data to any and all entities whom may find your data valuable. The sale of your data runs the gamut from corporate clients to the various "agencies". Once remotely located, any proficient hacker can access your data.



IMO

This is real tin foil hat stuff. Nowhere does it say that MS is free to sell your data.

A simple google takes you to >>>
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/Useterms/Retail/Windows/10/UseTerms_Retail_Windows_10_English.htm

& to>>>>
https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-gb/privacystatement

Keep that hat polished!

[emfrat]

Just my view, from a post I made on the NZFF Forum:
"I have no intention of installing Win10 - I can't afford the theft of bandwidth caused by MS, and Steam, who both expect to barge into my machine whenever they feel like it by pushing "updates" which I neither need nor want and have no choice about accepting. So for the moment I will be staying with Win7, and whatever sim I can run in that. I don't think I am alone in making that choice."

Just to clarify, here in Oz I pay AUD70/mth for 20GB. If I exceed that, there is an automatic charge of AUD10/GB, unless I see it coming and get in first, which is also costly but less so. In any case, there is no way in the world I will allow total strangers free access to my home network - not the Uni students across the street (which is why my network is wired,not WiFi), not MS or Steam because they have no idea how my machines are setup, but just change everything to what they think I should have, just to make their software work. Why should I accept that?
MikeW

[AussieMan]

Just to clarify, here in Oz I pay AUD70/mth for 20GB. If I exceed that, there is an automatic charge of AUD10/GB, unless I see it coming and get in first, which is also costly but less so. In any case, there is no way in the world I will allow total strangers free access to my home network - not the Uni students across the street (which is why my network is wired,not WiFi), not MS or Steam because they have no idea how my machines are setup, but just change everything to what they think I should have, just to make their software work. Why should I accept that?MikeWWho is your ISP MIke? I think you are getting ripped big time. I am with BigPond and I am paying $90 a month for 1TB. If by any chance I go over that I get throttled back to 256KB. My son and I use this account on a network and we are lucky if we use 500GB a month.I also use W10 and have been since the early Alpha releases and have no problems with updates. I get a notification about updates and can choose to uninstall any updates I don't want

[zswobbie1]

"I have no intention of installing Win10 - I can't afford the theft of bandwidth caused by MS, and Steam, who both expect to barge into my machine whenever they feel like it by pushing "updates" which I neither need nor want and have no choice about accepting. So for the moment I will be staying with Win7, and whatever sim I can run in that. I don't think I am alone in making that choice."

Does nobody ever update Windows 7??? You ARE aware of the following previous post.
"WannaCry is a good example when considering security updates.

The author of a malicious attack can use multiple tools to access secure systems. Vault 7 was a treasure trove of tools and techniques that are now widely distributed and used by third party, dark contractors.' & MS has just released an update for that. Are you going to leave your W7 machine vulnerable by not accepting that update?

You may not want it, BUT you NEED that one, and any other security update for older, more vulnerable operating systems. (such as yours)

So, the only real difference between W10 & older OS's, is that W10 updates for you automatically, whereas, before, you had to click OK every time, & I'm sure that everyone with W7 always kept the OS updated.
:banghead:

[gman5250]

This is real tin foil hat stuff. Nowhere does it say that MS is free to sell your data.

A simple google takes you to >>>
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/Useterms/Retail/Windows/10/UseTerms_Retail_Windows_10_English.htm

& to>>>>
https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-gb/privacystatement

Keep that hat polished!

My hat, and how I wear it are none of your concern sir. Keep your insults to your self and grow up.

Your problem is that you do a "simple Google search" and attempt to support your rude behavior with an uninformed reading of the privacy terms.
By the way...Google is a proper name. It should be capitalized.

With regard to capitalization. The privacy statement, which is referenced in the EULA, details in clever and utterly ambiguous language "We also share data with Microsoft-controlled affiliates and subsidiaries; with vendors working on our behalf".

What, exactly do you believe is implied in that language sir?
The contract, in its entirety, is full of such language that grants MS the right to do with your data as they wish or feel "necessary". Compounding the liberal application of vague language is the notoriously transparent "security" employed by Cortana and other MS, and affiliate apps.

The fact that your data is "shared" with affiliates, subsidiaries and vendors should tell you that your data is being monetized. That is what affiliates, subsidiaries and vendors do. MS is telling you, directly, their intention and thus indemnifying themselves against lawful remedy by the party who agreed to their terms.


I am not remotely concerned with how you conduct your affairs, your world view, nor your opinion of me.

This is a respectable and honorable forum where adults share their views, opinions and commentary. It would benefit you, sir, to learn how to conduct yourself with respect to the contract you agreed upon when joining SOH.

It would also benefit you to learn how to read, interpret and comprehend a commercial, maritime contract.

[hairyspin]

Funny how personal the reactions to computer problems can be. I can be just as shirty as anyone when something doesn't go right or a software update grinds the rig to a crawl for all of 35 seconds. HEY! I WANNA DO STUFF! GET LOST, CAN'T YOU! Blasted popups, please fill in this survey after buying tortilla chips online from Lug-a-Load dot com twice in four years... NO! GO AWAY!

Really, it's no better than road rage: we've all done it, not only do I own the road, it was my father's before me; or each and every truck is out to Get Me, help help.

The only answer is to make tea, go outside, breathe fresh air and imagine what particular segment of the seventh circle of Hell will be reserved for the real criminals, not the poor stiffs trying to make that vast software project called Windows run trouble-free.

[stovall]

Seems the last few posts are getting a bit personal. Please keep the comments about the title and not each other.

[ToniJH]

After the latest windows 10 update, my FSDS stopped working, it says directx z-buffer issue and cannot load 3d model views etc and program closes, all drivers and directX files are updated, still not work. So i rollback earlier version of Windows 10 and all works fine.

[hairyspin]

No personal remarks intended Tom, just trying to make a general observation about our PCs and our personal space as we tend to see it. If anyone thinks I'm getting at them, please accept my sincere apologies: mea culpa.

[ncooper]

Interesting debate.

I'll throw this into the ring to be shot to pieces.
The Windows 7 privacy statement (https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-7-privacy-statement) appears to have little to distinguish it from the Windows 10 privacy statement (https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/preview-privacy-statement).




Windows 7
In order to help provide our services, we occasionally provide information to other companies that work on our behalf. Only companies who have a business need to use the information are provided access to them. These companies are required to keep this information confidential and are prohibited from using it for any other purpose.
Windows 10
We may share or disclose information about you with other Microsoft controlled subsidiaries and affiliates, and with vendors or agents working on our behalf. For example, companies we've hired to provide customer service support or assist in protecting and securing our systems and services may need access to personal information in order to provide those functions. In such cases, these companies must abide by our data privacy requirements and are not allowed to use the information for any other purpose. We may also disclose information about you as part of a corporate transaction such as a merger or sale of assets.

[gman5250]

In the spirt of a gentlemanly debate:

I focused on the term "share" in my comment above.

Under maritime law, which governs all commercial contracts, the use of language and it's definitions are to be observed and understood. In an administrative court, the bench will interpret the language based solely upon codified definitions. Blacks Law is a commonly accepted reference in regards to these definitions.

Blacks Law:

SHARE
A portion of anything. When a whole is divided into shares, they are not necessarily equal. In the law of corporations and joint-stock companies, a share is a definite portion of the capital of a company.

Law Dictionary: S Information and Definitions from Black's Law Dictionary


In contract, the legal definition of a word determines the intention of the text. In the case of the MS Terms of Use and Privacy statement, the use of the word share takes on an entirely different meaning than a casual reading of the text may suggest.

In my day to day transactions, I take every precaution to avoid contracting in the commercial for exactly these reasons. There are, however, times when that becomes impossible...thus operating in commerce with Microsoft. An unfortunate and dis-tasteful reality, considering that there are virtually no alternatives available in the marketplace.

[ncooper]

Even more interesting.

The Blacks Law definition is of a noun.
The privacy agreement appears to be using a verb.

To "share"in the context used by Microsoft means to make available.
To "provide", as used in the Windows 7 excerpt, also means to make available.

The use of the term "share" when the meaning is "tell" or "give" or "provide"
is one that has emanated from American English and seems to be present
everywhere.

When I was taught English at school in the late 1950's and early 1960's, the verb
"share" meant to give some of what one had to someone else, or receive a part
of what they had.
"Give" meant to transfer something at no cost to someone else with no implicit
expectation of its return.
"Provide" was to supply something, also with no implicit expectation of its return
but to include a possible cost.

For this reason, I have understood each of those parts of the two privacy statements
to mean the same thing.
I may not be correct of course.

[gman5250]

Here's the interesting bit Nick,

The only reference to "share" in Black Law Dictionary that alludes to the verb is defined as


SHARE AND SHARE ALIKE
a term that applies to the equal share or the equal proportions.



Every other use of the word is a derivative of the noun. In a court of record, where would the bench find codified use of the verb, and how would it be applied?. At the discretion of the court would be the obvious answer, leaving the interpretation up to the court.

I haven't looked for any rulings in this area, but it would be an interesting study.

[ncooper]

I think you are quite right, as the meaning of the verb "share" has evolved,
a new definition probably is required.
"Disclose", however is far less ambiguous.

[emfrat]

Who is your ISP MIke?
My daily usage rarely exceeds 500MB, so 20GB/mth is heaps. I run on 4G Mobile Broadband (wireless) which lets me move around as I please, and Telstra has the best 4G coverage. I got rid of my landline years ago.

ATB
MikeW.

[padburgess]

gman & Nick

Firstly I am NOT a lawyer so my interpretation of EULA is as a layman. Just wanted to give my take on the two agreements you have quoted above.

Win 7. Microsoft states that "In order to help provide our services, we occasionally provide information to other companies that work on our behalf."
In this statement Microsoft makes no reference to you or your data. They merely state that they occasionally provide information to others. This could be interpreted to mean your information but is not implicit in the statement. Some ambiguity exists.

Win10. "We may share or disclose information about you with other Microsoft controlled subsidiaries and affiliates, and with vendors or agents working on our behalf."

However for Win10 they explicitly state that they may share or disclose YOUR information. This is very explicit and I take from this that they will do this. By using their software you are giving them your personal data to do with as they please. The example they give does not limit what they do with the data or what data they take. It is a simple reference case and anyway why would a company providing security services need my personal information. Microsoft do not provide me a personal service based solely on my setup or data. In my opinion they are data mining. You can draw your own conclusions regarding the end use of that data.

This is my interpretation of the two EULA's. I am comfortable with the Win7 one but the Win10 one sets alarms bells ringing in my ears.

Regards
Paul

[ncooper]

I think that he Windows 7 statement "In order to help provide our services, we occasionally provide information to other companies that work on our behalf."
has to be read in the context of this:



Certain Windows 7 features may ask you for permission to collect or use your personal information. Additional information about these features and how they use your personal information is described in the full Windows 7 Privacy Statement (http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkID=181944).
We use the information collected to enable the features you are using or provide the services you request. We also use it to improve our products and services. In order to help provide our services, we occasionally provide information to other companies that work on our behalf. Only companies who have a business need to use the information are provided access to them. These companies are required to keep this information confidential and are prohibited from using it for any other purpose.

[zswobbie1]

Your problem is that you do a "simple Google search" and attempt to support your rude behavior with an uninformed reading of the privacy terms.
By the way...Google is a proper name. It should be capitalized.

a Simple Google/google finds this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_(verb))
... "As a result of the increasing popularity and dominance of the Google search engine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Search),[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_(verb)#cite_note-1) usage of the transitive verb (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transitive_verb)[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_(verb)#cite_note-2) to google (also spelled Google) grew ubiquitously."

Anyhow.. I do apologise for upsetting anyone, I certainly did not expect to be called uninformed.
At the end of the day, we all must take own responsibility with what operating system we prefer.
We are, or should be aware of the constant malware/virus attacks, especially on older operating systems. Thankfully, MS is providing patches for those now.
We should be cognisant as well, that newer software releases do take advantage of more updated operating systems as well.
We should also be aware that there are software 'bots' that tend to track our google (verb) searches whenever we use Google (noun), Bing, or any other search engines, & will often give us suggestions based on whatever we have searched/googled. (I quite enjoy this feature)

Tracking is certainly not new. Google knows a lot more about us than we realise.. Our GPS tracks us.. One wonders what they actually do with that information (I wonder how interesting my toilet habits are to them)

Google Maps (yes, I do have it on my mobile phone).. You can actually get a timeline of your daily movement & locations.

Yes, modern technology & software is great, & I rather have the latest, updated operating system that protects me against worms, malware or anything else.

(Still cannot find 'sell' in any EULA so far)

Once again, I do apologise for mentioning tin hats, & it's Tea time for me.

[padburgess]

Hi Nick

Agreed. However my statement still stands I think. The full Win7 statement still does not implicitly say that the information they may share with other affiliates will be your personal information. The implication could be interpreted from the preceding statement but it is not explicit. And it also states that the features will ask your permission to collect and share the data. My interpretation of this statement is that I can say no. The Win10 statement on the other hand is very explicit about sharing your information. I don't remember Win10 ever asking my permission to take my information and giving me the option to decline with no penalty.

Zswobbie1. You do realise that operating systems don't protect you from virus' and malware until after the fact don't you. So they are in fact continually playing catchup. In fact the latest and "greatest" is likely to be extremely buggy and full of holes that can be exploited. It's the nature of modern software releases to do the testing with 200million+ users. Older operating systems tend to be far less vulnerable as they have had most of their "holes" plugged. Yes I know they can still be vulnerable to some newer types of threat but generally the vendor will supply a security patch if the system isn't too old, so Win7 got patched for the Wannacry bug.

Regards
Paul

[zswobbie1]

Yup, I should have added updated anti virus in that sentence as well, so I am protected as much as I can be.
Have a look here..
http://www.infoworld.com/article/3044089/security/the-best-new-security-features-of-windows-10.html

Somehow, on my 5 year old i5 4GB RAM laptop, my simming seems to run slightly faster & smoother now than it did, before I updated from Windows 7. (P3D & 3x FS2004 versions)

[gman5250]

(Still cannot find 'sell' in any EULA so far)

Once again, I do apologise for mentioning tin hats, & it's Tea time for me.





You have my apology also sir...and thank you. I'll extend my apology to admin whom, by now, are accustomed to my occasional eruptions and continue to tolerate my presence on this forum.


Nick and Paul, this rather innocuous thread has evolved into an investigation into the minutia of language. It is a fine topic and worthy of the time invested in its exploration.
To be clear, I am not a lawyer nor a law scholar. My limited knowledge in these matters is based upon the modicum of understanding I have acquired through my own personal investigations.

I'll use the use of the word "sell" as a example, since it has been the focus of this discussion.

I quoted Blacks Law Dictionary in my earlier reference. While the volumes are not considered law, they are agreed upon to be the language of the BAR. Entering a courtroom without understanding the court's specific language can be compared to traveling to a mysterious country, armed only with the language of your own land. Things can go nuclear in a hurry.

zswobbie1. You point out, correctly, that the world sell is not utilized in the EULA. The use of the noun "share", as defined by Blacks Law, may (another incredibly important term) be interpreted by the bench to read ..." In the law of corporations and joint-stock companies, a share is a definite portion of the capital of a company."

At this point, the term no longer acts as the verb, as Nick has interpreted the word. The context favors the noun, a portion of capital. When MS says they "may share" your information (data), are they saying that they might or might not allow an affiliate to view your phone number, or are they saying "Hey...we have permission from the bench to monetize everything about you and distribute it amongst ourselves. And by the way, if we profit in the boot...that's OK too."?

The ambiguity of the language, and it's intended use is deliberate. The obfuscation of the intent has been constructed in such a manner that allows the corporate entity to operate, so long as they remain within the boundaries of the contract that you entered into with them.

This is why I said they sell your data.

Further exploration of the verbiage, literally every word, is an illuminating experience.

When I used the word "uninformed", my intent may or may not have been to insult you, but the context indicated that my intent was to cause harm.
In reality, I may have used the word in the context of "Agnostic", which translates "ignorant" (an insult), but in the original Greek it is simply "not knowing".

Again, it's the language. I intend "not knowing"...you hear "ignorant". We go to court to hash out the damage and the "bench" (actually "bank") decides whom to award damages.
At the end of the day...it's always about the money.

IMO

[stovall]

This is exactly why I left this thread open. Gordon, I have come to know you pretty well. I describe you as passionate. As for HairySpin nothing directed at you and zszombie1 a class act to offer apologies. Another reason for leaving the thread open is there is some really good comments here. I always learn something from you guys.

Good job everyone.

Tom

[zswobbie1]

A tip of my hat to you, Tom.:applause:
Sometimes, we do tend to get a bit passionate at times, it's so quick to type out something that, in retrospect, could be taken amiss, &, I'm sure, we appreciate the leeway & understanding that we get here.

Cheers, Robin.

PS.... zszombie1? I like that! :wiggle:

[padburgess]

To gman, Nick and zswobbie1,

Thank you for a very lively discussion. I have enjoyed the repartee very much and appreciate the different points of view. Its good to be able to have a spirited debate without that debate descending into a slagging match.
Hopefully we can have others on this forum.
Tom Thank you also for your perseverance with this thread and letting it run.

Regards
Paul

[zswobbie1]

:triumphant:It seems that most of us here or in our 60's!

Maybe we should have our own 'Old Farts Flying Club'Forum? :triumphant:

[padburgess]

I thought we already did.

Sim Old Hats club!!

Paul

Aged 62years & 3years. Acts somewhere between 3 & 5 most of the time. Still trying to decide what I want to be when I grow up.

Note: Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional.

[zswobbie1]

Lo & behold .. it's been done!
http://www.cafepress.com/+old-farts-flying-club+hats-caps

[KevinJH]

Fired up this morning only to discover the '10' update had snuck in under the wire and was 100% successful is screwing up all the gfx settings to FSX:SE. So darned annoying..... :banghead:

[musterpilot]

:triumphant:It seems that most of us here or in our 60's!

Maybe we should have our own 'Old Farts Flying Club'Forum? :triumphant:

I will go with that mate

[zswobbie1]

Well, apart from a 34 year old, & a few that are 'ageless', all of us here are in our 60's -70's!!

:very_drunk:...

[stovall]

:triumphant:It seems that most of us here or in our 60's!

Maybe we should have our own 'Old Farts Flying Club'Forum? :triumphant:

Count me in, it is refreshing to have a discussion with mature, intelligent and knowledgeable "old farts."

[Dangerous Beans]

I'm not quit there yet but still feel a lot older than I would like too.

[gman5250]

If we can get one of those Old Farts hats in tin foil I'll join. :untroubled:

[stansdds]

If we can get one of those Old Farts hats in tin foil I'll join. :untroubled:

I can sell you some tinfoil!

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php/106255-GeForce-price-heading-up-due-to-mining!?p=1088700&viewfull=1#post1088700

I might be able to give you some instructions on how to make one and get the size correct. So many people wearing tinfoil hats do not have them properly tightened. :biggrin-new:

[gman5250]

I can sell you some tinfoil!

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php/106255-GeForce-price-heading-up-due-to-mining!?p=1088700&viewfull=1#post1088700

I might be able to give you some instructions on how to make one and get the size correct. So many people wearing tinfoil hats do not have them properly tightened. :biggrin-new:

I might take you up on that offer. I haven't been getting out much...the voices keep telling me..."Stay home and clean the guns"!!!! :biggrin-new:

[Penzoil3]

You hear that too ?

http://www.fsfiles.org/flightsimshotsv2/images/2016/10/04/Microsoft-Windows-10.jpg

[gman5250]

You hear that too ?

Only when the little floating fat people are in the corners of the room. They tell me what to do. :tongue-new:

[padburgess]

gman

What do you mean you don't get out much. I take it that the scooter in your avatar is a runner. Its summer in your neck of the woods isn't it? Unfortunately down here (NZ) its winter and while we don't have snow on the ground like you get, it is still a bit cool at times and ice can be a problem.

Just remember, don't argue with the voices, if you loose anything could happen.

Cheers
Paul
2000 Ducati 900SS, 1995 BMW R1100RS

[stansdds]

Y'all are hearing these voices too? Glad it's not just me.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZKIn_A6Zmc

[gman5250]

gman

What do you mean you don't get out much. I take it that the scooter in your avatar is a runner. Its summer in your neck of the woods isn't it? Unfortunately down here (NZ) its winter and while we don't have snow on the ground like you get, it is still a bit cool at times and ice can be a problem.

Funny thing...that's not my bike in the Avatar. That one was a Saxon chopper I built for a good friend.

Mine is an '04 FLSTFI. I did all the work...paint, engine build, suspension tuning etc.
Makes 130 HP. This pic is actually from before I went to the S&S top end.

The plate is HOG5250...look up 5250 in California State Mental Health Code...lol

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4286/35506584436_5224e74c12_o.jpg


Yeah...summer here and hot, but I've had my share of riding ice and snow living here. Riding here is very similar to Tongariro Park. I'm at 2200 M elevation, but the mountains out my back door go straight up to 4000 M. I try to get the bike out every other day. Usually ride up to town...it's a nice break from work. Right now the deer are thicker than flies...migration season. :mixed-smiley-010:

The high country still has 10 Meters of snow in many places, so getting up into the canyons and passes is impossible. Right now there is water everywhere...runoff.

[hairyspin]

There are three signs of madness, they say. First is talking to yourself. Second is arguing with yourself. The third and final stage is losing these arguments. Will everyone please take care?

[gman5250]

There are three signs of madness, they say. First is talking to yourself. Second is arguing with yourself. The third and final stage is losing these arguments. Will everyone please take care?

What started as a conversation about an innocuous update has degraded into this sordid tale. Hysterical....lol :biggrin-new:

[Paul Domingue]

It's amazing how discussions about computers dissolve into utter chaos. You need a computer to keep track of it all. :biggrin-new:

[stovall]

Being one of the old farts, if this thread is descending into chaos maybe it is time to close it. If there is more pertinent discussion I will leave open. Better it goes into the sunset. Thanks for everyone's input.

[gray eagle]

I've deleted my previous "non pertinent" and "non relevant" and "chaotic" post here.

[gman5250]

Can't speak for others. Seems to me an innocent enough diversion from the serious to the lighter side of things.

[stovall]

I've deleted my previous "non pertinent" and "non relevant" and "chaotic" post here.

Not sure why you deleted the post Gray Eagle, it only contributed to the chaos. I thought it was a good contribution. As Gordon says the thread is a good break from the serious.

[gray eagle]

Not sure why you deleted the post Gray Eagle, it only contributed to the chaos. I thought it was a good contribution. As Gordon says the thread is a good break from the serious.

I guess I was confused and taking your previous comment personal.

If it's okay I will repost it.

[gray eagle]

Hello G,

I like your bike :encouragement:

When I see this progressive commercial, it reminds me of your avatar :biggrin-new:

This is just a bit of levity from an otherwise somber world.

This dude has a "narley" beard.......bit of a 80's throwback term.
https://s23.postimg.org/iltnyqnbf/Capture.jpg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkDVSAACX28

[gray eagle]

I'm not quit there yet but still feel a lot older than I would like too.

With a handle that ends with "Beans" you would be most welcome in the Old Farts club. :biggrin-new:

[gman5250]

Not sure why you deleted your post either Butch.

To answer your question about 5250.

I was looking for a unique plate for the bike when it was new. I was having a beer at Toms Place, a famous local watering hole, and was having a conversation with a rather attractive female attorney. I usually avoid conversations with attorneys, but in her case I made an exception.

She was talking about a 5150 she was handling. I asked about the 5150, she pointed me to the statute.

A 5150 is a 72 hour hold under California law, to detain a person for being a danger to themselves or others. I thought HOG5150 would be a perfect license plate for the bike...a tongue in cheek way of saying Hog Crazy. It's an endearing term.

Unfortunately HOG5150 had already been issued, so I did some digging. I found the 5250 code, which is a much more serious application of the same statue. A 5250 is a fourteen day hold, for the same circumstances, but written in a much more sober and inclusive language.

If you pull a 5250....you probably earned it. It was a no brainer for me...thus HOG5250. The handle has stuck over the years, probably because at first glance I may appear to some to be somewhat intimidating. I've kept the handle because, to me, it is a way of pointing out that one should never judge a book by its cover.

I was part of a hard core biker wedding back in the eighties. One percenters.
We had the rehearsal dinner at a local watering hole. There was a piano in the center of the place and a couple of the guys said I should play. They were expecting some stride blues. Instead I gave them George Winston..."Thanksgiving".

The bar went stone quiet, they all puddled up pretty bad, but when they pulled themselves together I had a lot of handshakes.

I keep the 5250 to remind myself, and others, to not take things all that serious. The tin foil hat conversation is a perfect illustration.

[gray eagle]

Not sure why you deleted your post either Butch.

I thought Tom was hinting at my post and thought oops,,,maybe I oughta dump it.




To answer your question about 5250.

I was looking for a unique plate for the bike when it was new. I was having a beer at Toms Place, a famous local watering hole, and was having a conversation with a rather attractive female attorney. Usually I avoid conversations with attorneys, but in her case I made an exception.

She was talking about a 5150 she was handling. I asked about the 5150, she pointed me at the statute.

A 5150 is a 72 hour hold under California law, to detain a person for being a danger to themselves or others. I thought HOG5150 would be a perfect license plate for the bike...a tongue in cheek way of saying Hog Crazy. It's an endearing term.

Unfortunately HOG5150 had already been issued, so I did some digging. I found the 5250 code, which is a much more serious application of the same statue. A 5250 is a fourteen day hold, for the same circumstances, but written in a much more sober and inclusive language.

If you pull a 5250....you probably earned it. It was a no brainer for me...thus HOG5250. The handle has stuck over the years, probably because at first glance I may appear to some to be somewhat intimidating. I've kept the handle because, to me, it is a way of pointing out that one should never judge a book by the cover.

I was part of a hard core biker wedding back in the eighties. One percenters.
We had the rehearsal dinner at a local watering hole. There was a piano in the center of the place and a couple of the guys said I should play. They were expecting some stride blues. Instead I gave them George Winston..."Thanksgiving".

They all puddled up pretty bad, but when they pulled themselves together I had a lot of handshakes.

I keep the 5250 to remind myself, and others, to not take things all that serious. The tin foil hat conversation is a perfect illustration.

Thanks for 'splaining that and now, I know, ....the rest of the story.....

When I was into bikes in my early '20's, I saw this movie; released in 1966, struck me back then as "cool" and "far out". So I took my Honda 450 and made it look like a "choppa"
and my other Navy buds in San Diego were into BSA's and Triumph's (kick start only back then) and so we all rode around downtown San Diego and to Fallon NV (on squadron gunnery exercise).

It was a hoot till we all split up after we got our reassignment orders - probably just as well.

The Wild Angels - 1966


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPQEfRS6ROI


Did you see this flick?

[padburgess]

Gman

I agree with the sentiment about not taking life too seriously. Love your moniker, very cool.

If I may explain my footnote on my earlier post (Aged 62years & 3years.). Just over 3 years ago I went to the gym after work with my lovely wife to do our twice weekly penance. After my session I wasn't feeling too well, quite puffed in fact. Having already had one heart event and not wanting to risk another I asked the receptionist to call an ambulance. Had a lie down on the floor and waited. The ambo turned up, the paramedic introduced himself to me & I arrested. He shocked me and got me back, and by then a first re-sponder doctor had arrived and as he was getting appraised of my condition I crashed big time. Major arrest. My poor wife watched me die in front of her. It took a bit but they got me back and stabilised and then into hospital. Managed to arrest again when on the table getting my heart seen to. Cardiologists don't like their patients clocking out on the table.
Ended up being in for a week, with another stent, I had a blood clot form in a previous stent. So these days I have a heart that regularly goes into arrhythmia, pumps at about 40% of its capacity and generally doesn't want to behave.

So, I am 62 years old, but am also 3 years old as I got a reboot.

But you know what, I enjoy life immensely. I take very little too seriously and simply see the best in most things, even the mundane things in life. I have a gorgeous loving wife, a loving family, my scooters and live in an amazing part of one of the most beautiful countries on this planet. Whats not to like?

I've included a couple of pictures of my scooters. By the way, your bike is very cool.
The Duke was my younger brother Michael's. I brought it off his estate following his death at 45 from throat cancer. The tribute is to his son and my nephew who had died 4 years previously from a heart condition called long QT syndrome.

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=51227&stc=1http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=51228&stc=1http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=51229&stc=1

Cheers
Paul

[padburgess]

Just read my own post. What a numpty. Teach me not to keep my mind on what I'm doing. My brother David owned the Ducati and passed away from cancer. It was his son who died. My brother Michael lost his wife to breast cancer shortly after giving birth to their son. My apologies to all. I was thinking of them both at the time and didn't proof read very well.

Regards
Paul

[zswobbie1]

No problem, Paul, at our age, we are allowed to have a brain fart or two. :dizzy:

In fact, it's essential! :banghead:

[n4gix]

I had to tilt my head a lot but managed to read that lovely memorial for a young fellow far too soon departed. Thanks for sharing it.

[gman5250]

Paul,

I really appreciate your post. It is so easy, on the web, to forget that we are all more or less average people, with our individual story. My wife and I walk every day in the wilderness around us. Part of our ritual is to do "Thankful's", out loud, every day on our hikes. The ability to enjoy the most simple things in life usually find its way to the list.

Back when I had my hot rod shop, I did quite a few memorial projects for my clients. I was always honored to be part of that process, creating a lasting memory for loved ones.

Love those pictures you shared sir. TY

[gray eagle]

G,

With all the hassle's you've had with Win 10, I am sooo glad I stuck with Win 7 64 Bit.

I figure the wheel was round enough for me...:biggrin-new:

[padburgess]

gman

You are welcome sir.