Aero Commander 680 Super - Next

[Milton Shupe]

The AC680S is the next and last in line for the Aero Commander series of conversions to FSX Native.

This one will be a different challenge as there are actually 3 models and two or three different panels / VCs involved.

Not sure how I will proceed, but its more at 3 different projects. But some time should be saved by sharing the exterior model, I hope.

Seeing the liveries posted, the 680S Pegasus is also to be included but the alphas will need an artists FSX touch before it can be released.

This project will likely require 2 weeks.

[PhantomTweak]

Wow!
Can't wait. I'm wondering when I'll have time to fly all these beauties. Well, I will figger it out somehow.
I'm sure glad I have a very understanding (and beautiful!) wife or I'd be in trouble :D

Pat☺

[Henry]

BUT I HAVE TO:banghead:ILOVE THOSE LIVERIES:applause:H

[Willy]

Milton, will the texture mapping remain the same? If so, let me see what I can do with the Pegasus one.

[Milton Shupe]

Milton, will the texture mapping remain the same? If so, let me see what I can do with the Pegasus one.

Yes, compatible with all the original textures on the exterior.

But you must wait for the model with the FSX materials settings.

Thanks

[Milton Shupe]

BUT I HAVE TO:banghead:ILOVE THOSE LIVERIES:applause:H

LOL Thanks H :-)

[Willy]

Yes, compatible with all the original textures on the exterior.

But you must wait for the model with the FSX materials settings.

Thanks

I just ported over the FS9 vc version Pegasus for a quick look. The metal is a bit "washed out", but that's nothing that's not fixable. I'm going to see what I can do about getting it ready to work on by getting it into the paint kit for conversion.

[blanston12]

Excellent! I really have been loving these aero commanders, thanks so much for updating them.

[Craig Taylor]

Yay! Thanks Milt and Willy!

[Milton Shupe]

I just ported over the FS9 vc version Pegasus for a quick look. The metal is a bit "washed out", but that's nothing that's not fixable. I'm going to see what I can do about getting it ready to work on by getting it into the paint kit for conversion.

Willy, Nigel started redoing the Pegasus back in 2012 but it was not completed. I am looking for that work.


Excellent! I really have been loving these aero commanders, thanks so much for updating them.

I am happy to do it and really appreciate that people still can enjoy these old standards.


Yay! Thanks Milt and Willy!

You bet! :-)

I am still tweaking things based on beta test feedback but still hope to get the 500 out tonight as most of these things are very minor adjustments.

[Willy]

Willy, Nigel started redoing the Pegasus back in 2012 but it was not completed. I am looking for that work.

Ok. Hopefully he still has it.

Speaking of old Aero Commander paints, there was one years ago of one that two young men flew around the world. Any idea of where that paint could still be found? Last time I had it, I had a hard time finding it.

Edit: Found it. It's included in the FSX native package.

[BendyFlyer]

This was my first encounter with AC680 way back in 1978. It was very impressive then and still is today. They used to call it the mini-airliner. With good reason you needed an airline budget to look after the geared supercharged engines which were maintenance hogs and prone to being overboosted by hamfisted pilots with a lot of damage as a result. They performed allright but expensive to maintain which is why there are so few of them about today.

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=49699&stc=1

[expat]

Silly question time, but was also thinking about those Lycomings Were they geared up or down? My guess is down, but not sure why props with so little friction vs road wheels or ship screws would need or benefit from the extra torque/pulling power of a "low gear" whereas higher prop rpm (geared "up") would deliver greater performance? Or, maybe it's the same principle of reducing prop pitch - and rpm - in cruise, and squeezing out that extra IAS?

[Milton Shupe]

Silly question time, but was also thinking about those Lycomings Were they geared up or down? My guess is down, but not sure why props with so little friction vs road wheels or ship screws would need or benefit from the extra torque/pulling power of a "low gear" whereas higher prop rpm (geared "up") would deliver greater performance? Or, maybe it's the same principle of reducing prop pitch - and rpm - in cruise, and squeezing out that extra IAS?

BendyFlyer is probably in the best position to answer your question.

The 680 engine Geared and supercharged made its best power at TKOF of course at 3400 rpms. Props are restricted typically to <2100 rpms.

Generally, you do not want the prop tips to go supersonic (noise and efficiency) and blade length plays into tip speeds.

So you will often see geared props on larger prop length aircraft. and they will use more blades at a shorter length to reduce prop tip speeds while achieving the desired thrust.

The 680 is geared to restrict tip speeds to .792 mach and with 3 shorter blades, there is plenty of thrust.

[Milton Shupe]

I mentioned that the AC680S has 3 different models and two different panels.

I have one model and panel converted.

The later model panel and the cargo version for the FEDEX livery are still pending.

In these screen shots, the PT-BUF and IKE versions are converted, and the Pegasus is temporarily using the converted model so Willy can work on the livery.

The cargo version is using the newer panel/vc version and is shown using the FS9 portover model.

[BendyFlyer]

BendyFlyer is probably in the best position to answer your question.

The 680 engine Geared and supercharged made its best power at TKOF of course at 3400 rpms. Props are restricted typically to <2100 rpms.

Generally, you do not want the prop tips to go supersonic (noise and efficiency) and blade length plays into tip speeds.

So you will often see geared props on larger prop length aircraft. and they will use more blades at a shorter length to reduce prop tip speeds while achieving the desired thrust.

The 680 is geared to restrict tip speeds to .792 mach and with 3 shorter blades, there is plenty of thrust.

The engines were generally and are today geared down to do a number of things, first is the rotational force of the weight of a propeller rotating about a shaft and hub, which is why as engines became more powerful the blade numbers increased, there was a weight increase but the blade length was critical because the speed of the air over the blade varied from the hub join to the tip as did the blade section or angle of attack, so as Milton correctly points out beyond a certain speed the tips can go supersonic if the rotational speed is not reduced. Increasing the number of blades increased the weight but meant you can reduce the blade length, and it also reduced the noise generated by the props (two blade props are inherently noisier than 3 blades etc.).

The engine gearing was to keep the egnine speeds down and for props this is ideally about 3400 RPM max , on a lot of high powered pistons used in say a car you could have an engine that would do say 6000 RPM at max power but you had to keep the prop speed back to about 3000 RPM, it is one of the reasons V8 and car engine conversions were never really successful because while you would get good power you had to gear the engine down via a gearbox which sort of defeated the whole exercise. Supercharging and turbocharging was a neat way to develop power out of an engine with decreasing atmospheric pressure and to get the most you could out of an engine without having to build a very large engine. All aircraft piston engines are by design long stroke engines with low compression ratios which keeps them operating at low RPMs without the need for gearing. Needed more power? add more cylinders. Boat propellors are a different problem again because they are operating a dense liquid water, so you want the propeller rpm to stay low and the blade or prop section to develop maximum push (note how broad and large they are) and they were designed to go on low speed engines. The other problem with a boat propeller is cavitation, where if the prop rpm gets to high it begins to trap oxygen bubbles about the blades caused by the water flow and turbulence and that leads to loss of thrust to the point the prop could be at very high rpm but generating no thrust.

Another consideration is engine over-speed so if the aircraft is in a dive the prop RPM can increase very rapidly and over-speed the engine. Effectively a propeller is just another airfoil designed to produce lift but rotating the blade the lift is translated into thrust via a helical slipstream of air pushing the air back. A good example of prop noise and supersonic is the RR Dart Engine such as used on the Fokker Friendship, the distinctive high pitched whine of this engine-aeroplane was not the engine but props generating a noise and they were basically very close to being supersonic all the time.

Propeller design is a very technical field indeed which is why even today the propellers are made by specialist companies.

[Willy]

by design long stroke engines with low compression ratios which keeps them operating at low RPMs without the need for gearing. Needed more power? add more cylinders

Ala 1930's automobiles. Which is why there were V-12 & V-16 engines in luxury automobiles back then. They needed more power to pull those big heavy cars and the engine technology (and octane levels) just wasn't up to it back then. So, they added more cylinders.

[Milton Shupe]

The 680S package is ready except for some panel textures that need the attention of a painter.

I need some shading and some text added to the left and right side panel bmps.

I have a package ready to share if someone has the time.

Thanks for your help in advance.

EDIT: The request has been answered. Thank you

[gribouil]

Hi Milton,
manny thanks for your beautiful native Commanders! :ernaehrung004:
I have a question though:
Do you intend to release a native version of your Shrike Commander 500S?
I especially think about your "Bob Hoover" texture... :friendly_wink:
Cheers,

Stéph.

[Milton Shupe]

Steph,

The 500S Shrike was done by a team member I mentored in gmax back in 2003-4 and I do not have the gmax source to it.
I have looked at it in MCX to export a 3dsmax file and convert to gmax but the conversion mesh looks really bad.
It would be easier to rebuild it with much better results in my opinion than to convert it.

So, I am not likely to convert that one.

[Milton Shupe]

Thanks to Falcon409, we have the 2nd panel ready to go.

Just trying to get the Pegasus and FedEx livery models finalized now.

I should be able to upload the 680S series by late Friday to Saturday noon.

[gribouil]

Steph,

The 500S Shrike was done by a team member I mentored in gmax back in 2003-4 and I do not have the gmax source to it.
I have looked at it in MCX to export a 3dsmax file and convert to gmax but the conversion mesh looks really bad.
It would be easier to rebuild it with much better results in my opinion than to convert it.

So, I am not likely to convert that one.

Hi Milton,
many thanks for your swift reply!
I fully understand your point of view...
Cheers,

Stéph.

[Milton Shupe]

The final beta package for the AC680S has just been sent. Hopefully we will see some good results and get this out to you this weekend.

Containing 3 models, two panels, and 4 liveries required a lot of dancing and manipulation but we got through it faster than expected.

Thanks to falcon409 and Willy for their help, and to BendyFlyer for his testing and insights early on.

I hope you will enjoy the AC680Super; she's got lots of kick.

[nigel richards]

Willy, Nigel started redoing the Pegasus back in 2012 but it was not completed. I am looking for that work.



Ok. Hopefully he still has it.



Do you fine Gentlemen mean this one? :-)


http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=49795&stc=1 http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=49796&stc=1

Nothing fancy from my part - just a few alterations to the original textures (whose author I'm embarrased to say, escapes my fuzzy memory) :-/
All I did was some cleaning up of teh logo, some fast.n dirty shading, and a more useful alpha (which may use a tad of toning down according to taste).

Would love to see someone giving it the attention she really deserves. Now that she's going FSX native, there's bags of scope for proper details, panels, rivets, BUMPS!

I'll zip up the Photoshop files and get them over to Willy later today. :-)

[Milton Shupe]

The AC680S is now available for downloading. Thanks to BendyFlyer, Willy, Falcon409, and WND for their assistance.

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/local_links.php?linkid=22643&catid=34
(http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/local_links.php?linkid=22643&catid=34)

[Milton Shupe]

Do you fine Gentlemen mean this one? :-)


http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=49795&stc=1 http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/attachment.php?attachmentid=49796&stc=1

Nothing fancy from my part - just a few alterations to the original textures (whose author I'm embarrased to say, escapes my fuzzy memory) :-/
All I did was some cleaning up of teh logo, some fast.n dirty shading, and a more useful alpha (which may use a tad of toning down according to taste).

Would love to see someone giving it the attention she really deserves. Now that she's going FSX native, there's bags of scope for proper details, panels, rivets, BUMPS!

I'll zip up the Photoshop files and get them over to Willy later today. :-)

Thank you Nigel. It would have been great if you had the time to finish up André's Pegasus scheme. You had a good start on it. Willy just tweaked th e specular a bit and I did what I could with material settings. The scheme really needs a master's touch.

[Bjoern]

I have looked at it in MCX to export a 3dsmax file and convert to gmax but the conversion mesh looks really bad.

If you're stuck with GMax, you can basically forget about aircraft conversions with MCX. The only usable export format for further processing is .OBJ since it will at least retain the texture mapping, but the only way to get it into GMax seems to be a 3rd party importer*.

I've extracted the exterior and interior model from the FS9 .mdl file with MCX as .obj and ran them through 3ds Max. The resulting .3ds files are attached to this post. They'll hopefully import okay into GMax.

The text file contains a to-do list. I usually combine steps one to three on a per part basis, i.e. I pick a part, weld its vertices with a 0.001 m treshhold (and auto-smooth it) and then assign its FSX material. For materials that are not yet created, I have the FS9 model open alongside in ModelConverter and use the hierarchy or material editor (with highlighting enabled) to find the material name and/or its settings.
Once a part has its smoothing and material back, I name it appropriately. When all parts are named and have materials, I work on the animations, again with the help of the original model open in ModelConverter to figure out movement distance or rotation angles.
After the animations, I do all the required tagging for use in FSX and test export the model.

It's not rocket science but quite a bit of work.
To speed things up, I'd probably use the GMax scene from another Commander (500 series, I presume) as a basis and simply exchange any parts that are specific to the Shrike.
Or delete any parts that are inherited from the exterior model when working on the interior and merge them in later on.

Good luck!


P.S: To see the interior model of a FS9 .mdl file in MCX, set "gen_model" to "1" in the "Set Condition Variables" box.


*http://hce.halomaps.org/index.cfm?fid=2569

[Milton Shupe]

If you're stuck with GMax, you can basically forget about aircraft conversions with MCX. The only usable export format for further processing is .OBJ since it will at least retain the texture mapping, but the only way to get it into GMax seems to be a 3rd party importer*.

I've extracted the exterior and interior model from the FS9 .mdl file with MCX as .obj and ran them through 3ds Max. The resulting .3ds files are attached to this post. They'll hopefully import okay into GMax.

The text file contains a to-do list. I usually combine steps one to three on a per part basis, i.e. I pick a part, weld its vertices with a 0.001 m treshhold (and auto-smooth it) and then assign its FSX material. For materials that are not yet created, I have the FS9 model open alongside in ModelConverter and use the hierarchy or material editor (with highlighting enabled) to find the material name and/or its settings.
Once a part has its smoothing and material back, I name it appropriately. When all parts are named and have materials, I work on the animations, again with the help of the original model open in ModelConverter to figure out movement distance or rotation angles.
After the animations, I do all the required tagging for use in FSX and test export the model.

It's not rocket science but quite a bit of work.
To speed things up, I'd probably use the GMax scene from another Commander (500 series, I presume) as a basis and simply exchange any parts that are specific to the Shrike.
Or delete any parts that are inherited from the exterior model when working on the interior and merge them in later on.

Good luck!


P.S: To see the interior model of a FS9 .mdl file in MCX, set "gen_model" to "1" in the "Set Condition Variables" box.


*http://hce.halomaps.org/index.cfm?fid=2569

Thanks Bjoern. I imported your file to gmax. It looks much better than the 3ds file I exported from MCX and imported to gmax.

I'll go thru it to see if it has potential.

I appreciate your efforts and insight.

[Bjoern]

Thanks Bjoern. I imported your file to gmax. It looks much better than the 3ds file I exported from MCX and imported to gmax.

I'll go thru it to see if it has potential.

I appreciate your efforts and insight.

It's always an honor to help a Flight Simulator legend out!


The biggest challenge might be finding your way around ModelConverter and finding the parts in the hierarchy editor. Make good use of the rendering modes and switch from textured to wireframe mode when a part you're looking for is hidden behind other parts. You can also slowly tear a model down part by part in MCX. For example, start with the big parts like the fuselage and wings. Get them ready in GMax in terms of welded vertices, material and part name and once done, find the part in MCX' hierarchy editor (you can select parts with the arrow keys and just go through the list until it is highlighted in the viewport) and delete it. By that, you can steadily work your way to the smaller parts of a model. If you got the wrong part, you can undo the last action with CTRL+Y (or Z?). Just remember that the only way to save a model's current state in MCX is to export it, in case you can't do it all in a single session. A straight export in FS9 or FSX model format will do.

If you've got questions, just ask.

[Milton Shupe]

It's always an honor to help a Flight Simulator legend out!


The biggest challenge might be finding your way around ModelConverter and finding the parts in the hierarchy editor. Make good use of the rendering modes and switch from textured to wireframe mode when a part you're looking for is hidden behind other parts. You can also slowly tear a model down part by part in MCX. For example, start with the big parts like the fuselage and wings. Get them ready in GMax in terms of welded vertices, material and part name and once done, find the part in MCX' hierarchy editor (you can select parts with the arrow keys and just go through the list until it is highlighted in the viewport) and delete it. By that, you can steadily work your way to the smaller parts of a model. If you got the wrong part, you can undo the last action with CTRL+Y (or Z?). Just remember that the only way to save a model's current state in MCX is to export it, in case you can't do it all in a single session. A straight export in FS9 or FSX model format will do.

If you've got questions, just ask.

Thanks Bjoern. Actually I am well on my way, welding, smoothing, renaming, creating FSX materials, and creating the hierarchies. Major parts are now done and moving to minor ones. Since this model used a lot of my AC500 parts, names, and materials, I am well familiar with how its put together and animated. Should have it done on a couple days. But it all started with your export to 3ds because mine was not as fruitful. Thank you very much. :-)

[CrazyCanuck]

Downloaded. Installed. And getting ready for my first flight. Potential screenshot to follow. Tired of the never ending rain around here, so planning a Florida hop...

[Milton Shupe]

Downloaded. Installed. And getting ready for my first flight. Potential screenshot to follow. Tired of the never ending rain around here, so planning a Florida hop...

So CC, did you get lost in a thunderstorm? :-) Where's that screen shot? :wiggle:

[aspen31]

Thanks to everyone for another fine aircraft and in my case one that works well in Prepar3D. I have a couple of questions The first about the position light switch. In Prepar3D - latest version - the position light switch will toggle to on but immediately reverts back to off as if it were a momentary spring loaded switch. Not sure if this is a Prepar3D glitch or something else. The second question is about doors. In the FedEx version is there a single door or more than one? So far I can only open the door leading to the cargo compartment regardless of how I use the "shift - E + 1 , 2, 3 or 4. Any suggestions or advice appreciated.
Warren (aspen31)

[Milton Shupe]

Thanks to everyone for another fine aircraft and in my case one that works well in Prepar3D. I have a couple of questions The first about the position light switch. In Prepar3D - latest version - the position light switch will toggle to on but immediately reverts back to off as if it were a momentary spring loaded switch. Not sure if this is a Prepar3D glitch or something else. The second question is about doors. In the FedEx version is there a single door or more than one? So far I can only open the door leading to the cargo compartment regardless of how I use the "shift - E + 1 , 2, 3 or 4. Any suggestions or advice appreciated.
Warren (aspen31)

For the Aero Commander series, do not use the "L" key for lights; use the switches in the VC, or in the 2D panel overhead, but not both VC/2D as you will get gauge conflicts.
This happens if you use the Flashing option instead of "Steady". I just avoid the Flashing option for the Nav lights. Usually the POS switch has that behavior after using the 2D panel then going to the VC.

In the 520, 560, and 680 series, there was a mesh or mapping issue that I could not easily resolve with the cargo hold. So, I deleted the cargo hold area and just did not animate the small cargo door. That little issue cost me two days progress so I had no qualms about deleting the rascal. :-)

Only the passenger cabin door is animated.

[aspen31]

Hi Milton
Thanks very much. Incidentally this airplane performs very well in Prepar3D. In fact your machines form the backbone of the airplanes I use in this simulation. Thanks for the great work.
Warren

[Milton Shupe]

Hi Milton
Thanks very much. Incidentally this airplane performs very well in Prepar3D. In fact your machines form the backbone of the airplanes I use in this simulation. Thanks for the great work.
Warren

Hi Warren,

Wow! That's great to hear. Thank you for sharing that info.

Hope to have the Shrike out by Saturday, otherwise it will have to wait until I return from a week on vacation to the Ozark mountains, Branson, MO.

[Bjoern]

In the 520, 560, and 680 series, there was a mesh or mapping issue that I could not easily resolve with the cargo hold. So, I deleted the cargo hold area and just did not animate the small cargo door. That little issue cost me two days progress so I had no qualms about deleting the rascal. :-)

You should've posted about it on FSDev. Shame to lose features for mere mesh errors.

[Milton Shupe]

You should've posted about it on FSDev. Shame to lose features for mere mesh errors.

It wasn't worth chasing IMO. It was blowing off gmax each time I tried to address it. Tried deleting the material, remapping, recreating the material. Always ended with the same result.

[Bjoern]

It wasn't worth chasing IMO. It was blowing off gmax each time I tried to address it. Tried deleting the material, remapping, recreating the material. Always ended with the same result.

Hm. I think I ran into that kind of problem before and the only thing that worked was recreating the part from scratch.