C.R.D.A.Cant.Z.506B ready !!! - Page 2
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Thread: C.R.D.A.Cant.Z.506B ready !!!

  1. #26

    Some wider issues illuminated

    Hi Kikas,


    It is not my intention to discourage bug reports, only to encourage detailed bug reports whose circumstances can be replicated during developer testing. I will try to illuminate some associated issues for the benefit of all, but there is no evidence that the problems only you experience relate to contact points.


    Real hydroplanes do not necessarily sit exactly level on the water. The 'sit' obviously varies with current CoG, in real life and in FS9. This cannot cause a hydroplane to jump into the air, in real life or in FS9. When real (early series ) Airone CoG is fully compliant after fuelling the datum line of the whole aeroplane is about two inches higher at the stern of the floats compared to their bow.


    point.0 = 4, 15.9 , -11.17, -9.3,
    point.1 = 4, 15.9 , 11.17, -9.3,
    point.2 = 4, -21.58, -11.17, -9.1,
    point.3 = 4, -21.58, 11.17, -9.1,


    This micro varied over different versions, as armament and crew changed, but I decided nobody would notice and so all four have the same default early series 'sit' which is 'realistic'. The decrease in AoA due to the very slight static nose down sit is too slight to have any influence in the real world, or FS9, that anyone would notice as a change of aircraft behaviour, before or after Pilot Flying trims compliantly for Vy and applies full up elevator throughout the take off.


    Compliant installation and use of complaint startup.FLT files to spawn the Aironi into compliant scenery isn't the only relevant compliance issue if any of you hope to experience a realistic take off or landing. There are many compliances to learn and achieve to unlock the embedded realism.


    <<I think i sorted problem of shaking by editing contact points a bit:>>


    Your original report did not mention shaking. When installed compliantly the four aeroplanes in this release do not shake. If the precise location they are spawned into is defined as water mesh in the BGL concerned, they will rise and fall on the passing waves, with relevant amplitude and passing wavelength, which cannot be mistaken for 'shaking'.


    Everybody else should be able to test that the Airone will in fact spawn on land, but will then exhibit zero wave state, still with no shaking. If we apply power it will skid, because on any mesh (including an FS9 beach) it is sitting on the scrape points, not the contact = flotation points, a power skid will cause sparks on a hard runway. As the wartime crew training manual explains that is one way FS9 illuminates the pilot error of scraping the floats across a reef, sand bar or mud bank. It's not 'realistic' but it delivers the required notice of pilot error.


    Blackbird 686 said;


    <<I redid ALL of my default FS9 water textures using another 3rd party package some time ago, but the Vista OZ water is the same. >>


    We all need to understand that textures are irrelevant. They are just some pretty colours with no other data inside. Many FS9 scenery designers who did not know how to control the shape of shorelines just placed water textures onto land mesh. Swapping the Oz texture, or any other third party texture, for the Microsoft texture cannot alter that scenery design time error. The texture never tells us whether we have spawned, or landed, on water.


    If the underlying mesh is actually water mesh the contact = flotation points rule, and the Airone will exhibit the wave state. If the underlying mesh is land the scrape points rule and it obviously won't exhibit any wave state. It is a given that flight simulation enthusiasts will try to land Aironi on water textures, naively believing that scenery designers only place them over water mesh, but I fear that is far from true.


    However if the landing is compliant the supplied Airone code allows that landing on a water texture on land mesh to succeed, but you will all see a shower of sparks and you will all stop very quickly! A non compliant landing could obviously cause the Airone to 'jump' in FS9 if the Airone actually alighted on land mesh covered with a water texture.


    The realism in this release is very high. The supplied wartime crew training manual warns about inadvertent stranding, and about the need to avoid surf over shallow water when planning take off and landing direction during the captaincy decision making cycle. FS9 is a simulator of the real world laws of dynamics. It's not a video game. Archimedes' law is running. If the Airone is run across submerged reefs, sand bars, or mud banks at significant velocity, and the scrape points contact the reef it will 'jump' as notification of pilot and captaincy error. At lower velocity it will just run aground when being deliberately beached gently.


    The Airone has stepped floats. At low velocity the floats are semi submerged, as velocity increases it 'comes up onto the step' and begins to hydroplane. We can feel it come onto the step. Landing may, or may not, induce a period of hydroplaning with a small lurch as the Airone ceases to hydroplane on the step. All that is encoded, but it does not 'jump' into the air, and it does not shake, on water or land, when installed compliantly *and* it was spawned using a compliant FS9 hydroplane startup.FLT.


    The product documentation warns about the crazy content of many consumer created Startup.FLTs.


    For some reason many consumers are determined to believe that everything that can possibly go wrong inside a desk top flight simulator must be caused by 'flight dynamics' and that it must be possible to fix whatever the perceived problem is by fiddling with just one tiny text file (the aircraft.cfg) because it the only one that is easy for consumers to locate and fiddle with.


    I am afraid desk top flight simulators are much more complex than that and in reality there is less than 1% chance that the problem is in the aircraft.cfg, or can be fixed by fiddling with it. Nor can misinstallation of files be fixed by using a non compliant take off technique that would rip the flaps off in real life.


    FS development is about more than copying some numbers from the Boy's Big book of Wonderplanes into the flight dynamics. It requires code that offsets, or provides 'work arounds' for design time errors made by Microsoft, and common errors made by third party developers. The released contact points and the scrape points have a complex job to do during Airone simulation, including tolerance of compliant consumer landings on bogus water textures over land mesh, and realistic detection and consequence of inadvertent stranding and intended beaching, and I therefore advise against altering them.


    Whether we can taxi the Aironi on land mesh covered with a water texture after landing depends on current weight. We will always need a lot of power to scrape the floats over the land BGL that was concealed with a water texture. Under certain circumstances depending on BGL content we will not be able to taxi within that bogus scenery.


    We cannot take off from a land BGL covered with a water texture. It is necessary to slew to a location where the flotation = class 4 contact points (above) exhibit a wave state, allowing us to be sure we are now on water mesh, not land mesh covered with a water texture, where the class 2 scrape points will exhibit no wave state. Then during the captaincy decision making cycle we must consider where the bogus scenery we have already detected may again have water textures laid over land mesh. In MSFS this may require us to take off towards open sea regardless of wind direction. if we slam the floats into land mesh under a water texture during take off or landing the airome may 'jump' or it may 'crash'.


    None of these errors are in the Airone release. Instead it provides the necessary work arounds via carefully coded offsets between flotation and scrape points, and other components of the aircraft.cfg.

    >


    Kikas, because you see shaking while static, as well as jumping while in motion, I can now be sure you have misinstalled something, or less likely, you are using one or several equally broken hydroplane startup.FLTs, (perhaps cloned from one another in some way), to spawn the Aironi. Either way you will have other run time errors that a two inch raising of the rear of the floats while static on the water mesh, and using random unsafe take off techniques, will never solve.




    <<As for Mr. Belov's sceneries, they either crash after couple of minutes flying around, sound disappears, and i get FS crash message, or if i start with other plane it crashes instantly i try to switch to Airone.>>


    Mr. Belov has contributed many freeware sceneries, as well as other freeware files, and we should not assume that they all have bugs. Your report is still not as clear as it could be, but I think you are saying that, for you, the scenery in question causes FS9 to crash after a couple of minutes whatever aeroplane you select.


    Your new more detailed report indicates that the scenery in question causes a 'memory leak'. If the aeroplane used has few polygons and a simple VC, or no VC, consuming less of your 'computer memory', it takes a few minutes for your 'computer' to 'run out of memory', but if you try to spawn a complex aeroplane release the scenery in question has already consumed (and not given back) so much of the memory available in your computer, or on your video card, that the FS9 crash is instantaneous. The wartime Airone release does not cause the computer crash.


    If the Belov scenery was installed compliantly, and then layered compliantly, the FS9 crash is caused by a scenery that is not FS9 compliant. Consumers with more memory (of the relevant kind) may suffer an FS9 crash only after a much longer timeframe. If bugs actually exist in software they don't necessarily bite all consumers on an identical timescale, even if usage is identical. One consumer can have problems that another consumer (or the developer) never sees, depending on memory installed. The issue is sufficiently detailed reporting of the circumstances, to allow identification of the cause. The real remedy is never one that has no relationship to the cause.


    Misinstalling the Airone release 'may' be contributing to the speed of the crash. No one else has reported any of the problems you have experienced and so we can all conclude that you have misinstalled the many files in some way. There is only one way to fix that. I had to invoke that real uninstall and re-install fix more than once during development and alpha testing. The required installation is more complex than usual.


    That is one reason that the Airone release will be in two parts.


    FSAviator.

  2. #27
    I think i got the problem and its because of me and my old pc, aircraft is perfect. I noticed that shaking and jumping happens mostly during heavy weather, during included saved flight there's almost none of that, then i remembered that some planes are acting that way because of low framerate, so i installed 64x64 dxt3 cloud textures and voila everything's perfect. After reading a bit about contact points i still decided to do few experiments and changed static compression of floats to 0.85 and this did the trick too, even with clouds of high resolution and heavy weather i can maneuver and do takeoffs and landings without worries of sudden jumps into the air.
    As i said problem was on my part, because of my old pc, sorry for all the problems i caused, but at least i learned something new

  3. #28
    You did not cause a problem Kikas... Glad you got it sorted.

    BB686
    "El gato que camina como hombre" -- The cat that walks like a man

  4. #29

    Icon22

    Hi Kikas,
    You can't imagine how many things I learned about MSFS World "working" in team with Mike/FSAviator.
    I want to give him again a big "THANK YOU" for the veeery big work he did for my (our) planes, I'm only a retired old plastic modeller, he is the person that makes these planes to fly really and not as RC models......


  5. #30
    Hi,


    thanks for uploading this Z.506 Airone package. Great work indeed.


    I just finished reading teh contextual hitory. An excellent piece of work, as usual. I don't want to be nitpicking, but I'd like to comment on something, though:


    „In February 1941 they moved to Rodos, but they returned to Leros soon after the Luftwaffe airborne forces (not the German Army) captured Crete in May.“


    This is not quite true. The German 'Fallschirmjäger' paratroops and the glider troops from the LL Sturmregiment were in fact part of the Luftwaffe and made up the first waves of the assault. But starting from about 17:00 hours of 21 May 1941, the second day of the operation, mountain troops ('Gebirgsjäger') were flown into Maleme to reinforce the airborne troops. These mountain troops were part of the Army ('Heer'), so the Luftwaffe made up only a part of the invasion force, even though an important one.


    Actually, anonther army division had been tasked with airlanding operations during the campaign in the Low Lounties a year earlier, but that division was used elsewhere. Using mountain troops was quite a logical choice then, they were in the area anyway and if their equipment can be broken down into packs light enough for a mule, it should not pose a problem for a Ju-52, either.


    While we're at it, here's something from the Z.1007 contextual history relating to Crete that I'd comment on as well.


    „Fighting mostly against the New Zealand Army during their airborne assault on Crete, receiving too little CAS, which departed too distant air bases having been displaced by transports, and with no armour support because there was no over the beach component, the Luftwaffe paratroops suffered 40% casualties, their morale was shattered, and they would never again perform a significant offensive airborne operation.“


    I'm not quite sure I'd agree about 'shattered morale'. The German airborne division was filled up with new forces, retrained and remained a very effective fighting force for at least another 3 years. What was shattered in fact was confidence of the High Command in airborne operations and airborne troops were used almost exclusively as ordinary infantry units. However, occasionally (rarely) airborne operations still took place. The largest operations were probably battalion-sized drops during the fighting for the Italian Dodecanese in 1943 and the last airborne landing most likely took place during the Ardennes offensive. However, from late 1944 onwards, the qualitity of 'airborne' units quickly declined when they increasingly consited of surplus Luftwaffe ground units (barely) retrained for infantry service and just labelled 'Fallschirmjäger' to keep them under Luftwaffe control.


    Anyway, that's just a comment on the side and only marginally touches the Z.506 and Z.1007 history.



    Best regards,
    Volker

  6. #31
    Hi all,

    here's a document I found on the net regarding maritime reconnaissance.

    http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.de/arch...nvoy_final.pdf

    It is a translation of a short Lufwaffe document on identifying ship types by their position within a convoy and their wake shape. I thought it might somehow fit to the Z.506B.

    Best regards,
    Volker

  7. #32

    Many thanks Volker, very interesting and useful!

    Cheers

    Shessi

  8. #33
    Hi,

    here's a link to a web page about Marsala seaplane base, one of those listed in the Z.506 pack:
    http://www.forgottenairfields.com/it...none-s595.html

    Pictures of the base and a link to a youtube video is available there.

    Best regards,
    Volker
    Last edited by Volker Böhme; November 3rd, 2014 at 21:39.

  9. #34
    Hi,

    here's a bit of additional information on Peenemünde, including a map and a large aerial picture:
    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heeresv...eenem%C3%BCnde

    The seaplane base might be on the northwest tip of the island, next to the airfield, as indicated by the anchor symbol:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Best regards,
    Volker

  10. #35
    Hi,

    here's the aerial picture of Peenemünde:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Best regards,
    Volker

  11. #36
    Hi all,

    one more thing on Augusta seaplane base on Sicily:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    A picture from Google Earth: The building on the right upper corner might be a seaplane hangar. It seems to have an annex with a rounded front, giving an overview over the area. Such attachments have been used by the Luftwaffe as control towerd for their airfields and it might be the case here as well. The site also has a large ramp which should be good for beaching medium-sized seaplanes. The large building west to the presumed hangar is an WWI vintage airplane hangar, indicating military presence in the area.

    I have also seen a picture of Z.501 taking off in a southerly direction with the airship hangar in the background, in other words, departing from the area of the presumed hangar.

    I believe that this indicates that the hangar-like building might well have been a seaplane base.

    Best regards,
    Volker

  12. #37

  13. #38
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    Hello Volker,
    Thank you for posting these fascinating links. The structures in Augusta do appear to be those of a substantial
    seaplane base. I haven't found any other photos of it yet but will keep an eye out. While searching today, I did find
    an interesting story;

    http://www.gentedelquindicesimo.it/p...dern&Itemid=28

    ...and a great photo of two siblings at Vigna di Valle.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  14. #39
    Hi,

    thanks to the link, I'll use the translator later to read it.

    By the way - the Trieste location privided in the map is the shipyard that built the CANT seaplanes, while the one from the Forgotten Airfields list is the former commercial (ALA LITTORIA) seaplane base, which was in military use at least some time during WWII.

    Best regards,
    Volker

  15. #40

    Airone docking

    Hi Volker and others,

    Thanks for the further research. I hope everyone is enjoying Part 1 of the Airone release.

    In general the Airone was not beached, even though it could be. Damage to the floats was too likely. It was more usually 'docked' using a more or less standard large hydroplane lifting crane with a sling that attached to two attachment points fore and aft of CoG on either side of the fuselage. The photo posted earlier showed such a crane.

    The URL below shows the Balearic Air Forces hydroplane dock at Pollensa with two of the earliest Z.506B Aironi Srs 1 present.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...sa_harbour.jpg

    Note the elevation of the hydroplane dock above the bay and any beach.

    The URL below shows a similar hydroplane crane that has docked a Z.506S Soccorso during WW2.

    http://www.pliniogallinaro.com/wp-co...6/009ppffr.jpg

    In this case I suppose it was lifted just for a propaganda photo since it remains attached to the crane ready to go back in the water.

    This URL shows an engine test after maintenance and another view of a 'typical' Airone hangar.

    http://coollib.net/i/90/233990/pic_34.jpg

    Moorings, beaches and even the open hard standing were not ideal for many maintenance tasks.

    This URL shows how the Airone was sometimes 'not quite beached' using a motor launch to position it for direct loading / unloading, but only if ideal wave conditions and a sloping beach permitted.

    http://www.asso4stormo.it/arc_02/arc..._gab/gab18.jpg

    Nothing to do with beaching or docking but this URL shows the rest of the wartime Wireless Operator's station, including his chart plotting table, which we could not include in the VC.

    http://www.rkd.friko.pl/cant-1.jpg

    >

    Finally looking forward to the Part 2 Airone Postbellico release next month, this URL shows a Postbellico being undocked.

    http://www.airaces.ru/images/hydropl...one-launch.jpg

    Note the long domed Savoia hydraulic airscrew hubs after the post war mid life update to provide classic era constant speed propulsion. The constant speed screws substantially altered the performance envelope and operating procedures, which is one of the reasons this complex release is in two parts.

    Note the rebuild of the gondola with new curved plywood panels to reduce co-efficient of profile drag, but still the AR126/RC34 engines designed by Bristol in the early 1930s and thus still without cowl flaps, as well as the plywood payload bay doors still being roughly sealed against water ingress to this ancient wooden aeroplane, using mastic between air drops.

    FSAviator.

  16. #41
    Hi FSAviator,

    thanks for the reply. Yes, I do enjoy the relase.

    And thanks for the information about (not) beaching the aircraft. It looks indeed like no beaching gear or cradle was used for the 506. Other types were beached quite regularly, like the Short Empire Flying boat every 20 flying hours, using attachable beaching gear.

    Best regards,
    Volker

  17. #42
    Hi,

    here's more from the 1931 airfield directory. I mentioned it in another post (http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforum...ield-ressource).

    Ajaccio:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Cagliari: Click image for larger version. 

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    Napoli: Click image for larger version. 

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    Pisa: Click image for larger version. 

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    Athens (Phaleron Bay - as used by Imperial Airways): Click image for larger version. 

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    Tobruk: Click image for larger version. 

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    The info on Trieste isn't very helpful: Click image for larger version. 

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    And finally, a sketch of Souda bay as of May 1942, from a different source (http://www.allworldwars.com/Airborne...rete-1941.html):
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Note that I just took the seaplane bases from the directory - FsAviator mentions a totally different location for Pisa, for example. The directory and the relevant timeframe for the Z.506 are 10 years apart and the directory mainly lists civilian airfields and seaplane bases, not military bases. The locations may well differ, but in some occasions they match quite well. I did not include Brindisi in this list, where the military base is well covered in a link above.

    Best regards,
    Volker

  18. #43
    Hi,

    sorry for bumping the thread, but in case someone is interested: This site now has a list of airbases in Greece and the (then Italian) Dodecanese. Mainland Italy and Northern Africa will still have to wait.

    Best regards,
    Volker

  19. #44
    Hi all,

    bumping the old thread once again, but a list of Luftwaffe airbases in Italy is available now as well:
    http://www.ww2.dk/lwairfields.html

    Best regards,
    Volker

  20. #45
    Hi Volker,

    Thank you for the Italian airfield locations and data.

    FSAviator.

  21. #46
    Hi all,

    I went through the Z.506 seaplane base list and compared it to deZeng's list mentioned above. Sometimes the base names are different or are specified to distinguish them from nearby land bases:
    Arbatax: Look up Tortoli in deZeng's list.
    Brindisi: different location, compare to forgottenairfields website mentioned above.
    Cagliari: Look up Elmas.
    Marsala: Look up Marsala Stagione.
    Naples: Look up Naples-See.
    Olbia: DeZeng suggests other side of bay.
    Pisa: Look up Torre dde Lago.
    Pollensa: Can't find it in DeZeng's list.
    Taranto: Taranto (Sea)
    Trieste: different location, compare to forgottenairfields.

    La Spezia, Orbetello and Oristano match.

    Note that airfields located in the (now Greek) Dodecanese are listed in the Greece list. North African bases are yet to come.

    Best regards,
    Volker

  22. #47
    Hi,

    I will take a look. Pollensa is in Majorca (Spain) and was never a Luftwaffe (or Regia Aeronuatica) base. Hence no listing.

    FSAviator.

  23. #48
    Hi,

    yes, my fault, sorry about Pollensa and thank you for correcting it.

    Note that I used the map titles as keywords for comparison.

    Best regards,
    Volker

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