Attention Col. Rami - Top Secret - Eyes only

[Rami]

Good evening,

I have been working with the Westland Whirlwind for a couple of "what if" missions in 1941. One of the things I've done, besides correcting the engine data and weight, was to correct the fuel load to correct the wing tank load, (300 liters per tank) and then added the thirty gallon fuel tank that would have been included with a redesign, and then added drop tanks (44 gallons each) to the payloads.

I've made sure that the .air file includes the drop tanks and relevant info, and that they are sequential. But apparently, the corresponding information must also be included in the .cfg file, because the aircraft.cfg includes the fuel tank data.

[fuel]
LeftMain=0.000, -3.000, -0.667, 79.252, 0.000
RightMain=0.000, 3.000, -0.667, 79.252, 0.000
fuel_type=1.000000
number_of_tank_selectors=1

It's obvious that the fourth set of numbers are the size of the tanks. (This is 300 liters converted to gallons)

I would assume that the information posted above refers to the positions width-wise and lengthwise from the position of the aircraft's center of gravity. However. I do not know enough about these numbers to judge where I would position the fuselage and wing drop tanks. I positioned the drop tanks in the same place as the bombs, and as you see from the attached pis, it works out well.

Attachment 12455Attachment 12456

However, when I test the sample mission I'm using, I can tell that neither the drop tank, nor the fuselage tank, are being used because the fuel consumption rates have not changed.

Some advice here would be quite helpful.

Shadow Wolf had me look at the fuel selector gauge, and it just has port, center, and starboard. Do I need to change the gauge?

Thanks in advance,

[glh]

I think you need a tank switching gauge that can pick up other than the wing tanks. It appears that the original designer set it up to operate only on the wing tanks, even though he may have also modeled external tanks.

Here's a suggested modified .cfg file and my reasoning behind the changes:

[fltsim.0]
title=Westland Whirlwind Mk. I
sim=WeWhI
model=
panel=
sound=
texture=
kb_checklists=
description=WHIRLWIND Mk I Fighter RAF\nFS2002\/2004 FSDS V2 Model\nBy JRLucariny\nhttp:\/\/lucariny.sites.uol.com.br
ui_manufacturer=Westland
ui_type=WHIRLWIND Mk I Fighter RAF

[fuel]
LeftMain=0.000, -3.000, -0.667, 79.252, 0.000
RightMain=0.000, 3.000, -0.667, 79.252, 0.000
===============================================
External1 = 0, 0, -1, xx, yy
External2 = 0, 9.5, -1, xx, yy "xx" = fuel capacity
External3 = 0, -9.5, -1, xx, yy 'yy" - fuel not used.
===============================================
fuel_type=1.000000
number_of_tank_selectors=1

[GeneralEngineData]
engine_type=0
Engine.0=6.500, -6.500, 0.000
Engine.1=6.500, 6.500, 0.000
fuel_flow_scalar=1.000

[bearcat241]

Rami, the cfg gets the final word on the flight dynamics and specs, with the air file providing the main body of general data. Any data put in the cfg pertaining to engine, flight envelope, prop, fuel, etc., will override any conflicting data in the air file. There was a time in the early years when many addon CFS2 aircraft.cfg followed the FS2000 format of only including [contact points], [lights] and [view] data with little more. The sim would draw everything else - critical specs and performance coding - from the air file. Nowadays you see most cfg's in CFS2 setup in a reverse fashion similar to the more recent FS platforms thanks to the widespread use of Airwrench across all platforms. Due to the MSFS-minded algorithm of Airwrench, the cfg rules and is saturated with data better left to the air file in the case of CFS2.

Delete all fuel data from the cfg. Leave all fuel management to the data you've put in the air file. For enhanced realism in this department, add record 1520 - FS2000 Fuel System - from another air file and make sure both values in the section are set to "true".

Hope this helps...

[Blood_Hawk23]

Rami,

Do you have ACM?

I would use that to help setup your locations. even if you don't enter anything into it you can get a 3D model and get the measurements. Its alot easier then the old trial and error method.

[Rami]

Rami, the cfg gets the final word on the flight dynamics and specs, with the air file providing the main body of general data. Any data put in the cfg pertaining to engine, flight envelope, prop, fuel, etc., will override any conflicting data in the air file. There was a time in the early years when many addon CFS2 aircraft.cfg followed the FS2000 format of only including [contact points], [lights] and [view] data with little more. The sim would draw everything else - critical specs and performance coding - from the air file. Nowadays you see most cfg's in CFS2 setup in a reverse fashion similar to the more recent FS platforms thanks to the widespread use of Airwrench across all platforms. Due to the MSFS-minded algorithm of Airwrench, the cfg rules and is saturated with data better left to the air file in the case of CFS2.

Delete all fuel data from the cfg. Leave all fuel management to the data you've put in the air file. For enhanced realism in this department, add record 1520 - FS2000 Fuel System - from another air file and make sure both values in the section are set to "true".

Hope this helps...

Bearcat,

It does, and I eliminated the extraneous info and made the changes you suggested to the airfile. But even with that eliminated and modified, it still does not recognize the extra fuel. Is the fuel tank selector the last link, then? What gauge would you recommend?

[Allen]

The [fuel] and [GeneralEngineData] data won't work in CFS2 as they are not in the CFS2 sim1.sim.

[Sarg Willy]

Possiblly the gauge , if you can,t select and use em up first ,
the sim is probably not reading them either - drop tank,s ,
P-38 gauge to test ,I guess


Rami , check , the last unknown tank entries , if your finding unknown=2
try changing them to 1 or 0 , from a players aircraft , on warp =2 seems to be locked out on warp , you can select them , and use up the fuel , but I,m not sure if their fuel usage is simutanious , additional added tanks ,, Not drop tanks ,

[Rami]

Rami , check , the last unknown tank entries , if your finding unknown=2
try changing them to 1 or 0 , from a players aircraft , on warp =2 seems to be locked out on warp , you can select them , and use up the fuel , but I,m not sure if their fuel usage is simutanious , additional added tanks ,, Not drop tanks ,

Sarg Willy,

I tried this as well...and although I think this was part of the issue, (I corrected the numbers) no change in fuel usage. Onto the gauge.

[kelticheart]

Sarg Willy,

I tried this as well...and although I think this was part of the issue, (I corrected the numbers) no change in fuel usage. Onto the gauge.

HI Rami,

could you post the fuel tanks entries of your Whirlwind airfile? I would like to see if there's anything that I can do to help you.

Cheers!
KH

[Rami]

Stefano,

Attached. I am using the drop tanks from Morton's AH Hurricane BoB pack.

[Rami]

Good morning,

Oddly enough, I'm getting the same result with Bismarck13's Beaufighter...so I must be missing something.

[bearcat241]

...But even with that eliminated and modified, it still does not recognize the extra fuel. Is the fuel tank selector the last link, then? What gauge would you recommend?

Rami,

It seems you're working with Piglet's legacy AF99 model. I have two questions: What tank selector and analog fuel gauges are you using and have you noticed any improvements in range despite the instrument gauge's failure to recognize the extra juice? I ask the latter question because i have also on many occasions chosen old FS98/FS2000 fuel gauges (and engine gauges) out of my collections that are dysfunctional in CFS2 due to incompatibility or just plain bad coding - mostly FS98.

Can you post the main panel data from the panel.cfg or just name the gauges here? I may have them in my collections also for comparisons and possible duplication of your problem.

[Rami]

Bearcat,

I think I uses the "Classic Aces" 2d panel bitmap..but no problem. I converted the gauge to the P-38 tank selector. One thing I was thinking about is using AF Scrub's .cfg and airfile from Sopwith's package, but I didn't know if that would make it better or worse.

It appears that Piglet and the JRL Whirlwind use info from the P-38 Lightning...not the greatest match.

[bearcat241]

OK...i think i see the problem here. You're using the defo CFS Spit Mk1 fuel gauge which only reads the level of the single center tank in the Mk1. And you're using it twice to represent both center and wing tank levels. That's not gonna work. That gauge is specifically linked to center tank alone - no wing tanks or drop tanks allowed. You either need a gauge that will read all three tanks plus drop tank contents together like the stock CFS2 models or separate gauges for the center and wing tanks like i have in the pics below.

And for those occasions where i would be using drop tanks also, i threw in the Wildcat's 'total fuel percentage' readout . It won't tell you specifically how much is in the drops alone (i don't know of any gauge in CFS2 world that will), but it combines the contents of the drops with main tanks for total percentage. Also, renumber the tanks in the air file to make the center tank #1, the left wing #2 and the right wing #3. The sim's fuel management coding seems to prefer this better. When there's a center tank involved, it automatically selects it for startup and takeoff, even if you have manually selected wing or drops for takeoff juice. So its not a big deal, but setting the center to number 1 makes logical sense.

[Rami]

Bearcat,

So what does that panel.cfg look like?

[The B24 Guy]

Hi Rami,

Here is some info I have on fuel. Maybe it will help.

Here are the TANK ID'S displayed by the dump tank gauge and the corresponding air file section number for each tank:
"Ctr 1" = section 531 - Center Tank 1
"Wng L" = section 525 - Left Wing Tank
"Wng R" = section 526 - Right Wing Tank
"Aux L" = section 527 - Left Aux Tank
"Aux R" = section 528 - Right Aux Tank
"Tip L" = section 529 - Left Tip Tank
"Tip R" = section 530 - Right Tip Tank
"Ctr 2" = section 532 - Center Tank 2
"Ctr 3" = section 533 - Center Tank 3

Fuel tank usage in CFS 2 with Auto Fuel Management turned ON:

The fuel tanks are organized into two groups of tanks: center tanks and wing tanks. Fuel is burned from both groups simultaneously; i.e., if there is fuel in a center tank and fuel in a wing tank, then fuel is drawn from both tanks containing fuel.

In addition, the wing tanks are paired. All fuel from both wing tanks in a pair is burned before fuel is burned from the next pair.

In the center tank group, fuel is burned first from Center Tank 3, then Center Tank 2, and last from Center Tank 1.

In the wing tank group, fuel is burned first from the Left and Right Aux Tanks, then from the Left and Right Wing Tanks. If Auto Fuel Management is turned on, fuel in the Tip Tanks will not be used.

Good luck,

B24Guy

[Rami]

Good afternoon.

Bearcat,

I tried changing the gauges. No dice. It doesn't have any bearing on whether or not the sim is using the drop tanks or the fuselage tank. The fuel consumption is the exact same, whether I delete the fuselage tank and the drop tanks from the airfile entirely, or include them. This confirms that the sim is not recognizing the additional tanks.

[Allen]

The P-38 Fuel Selector uses 525 *Fuel Left Main Tank, 526 Fuel Right Main Tank, 531 *Fuel Center 1 Tank, 534 *Fuel External 1 Tank and 535 *Fuel External 2 Tank.

If all else fail attach the aircraft so all of use can have try at it.

[bearcat241]

... The fuel consumption is the exact same, whether I delete the fuselage tank and the drop tanks from the airfile entirely, or include them. This confirms that the sim is not recognizing the additional tanks.

Please pardon my density here, but i want to make sure we're on the same sheet. By "fuel consumption" i assume you're referring to range per full load as setup in your mods and not the rate of fuel burn, right?

I've attached my panel.cfg below after some changes to the pics above. It's still a WIP as i need to make sure all the window buttons are properly linked and functional after a quick copy paste from another panel. Using my gauge mods and your current fuel tank setup you get (A) correct needle readings in all gauges and (B) more range using the same throttle/mixture/pitch settings as before making your mods. Let me know if i need to send any gauges in this that you don't have already.

[Rami]

Bearcat,

What I mean is that in the mission I have set up as I move from waypoint to waypoint, the amount of fuel I have remaining does not vary an iota whether I have the fuselage tank and drop tanks included in the .air file or not. The percentage of fuel remaining according to the HUD has the same percentages at each waypoint, and I run out of gas at precisely the same spot.

Ergo, there is something preventing the sim from recognizing and utilizing the fuselage tanks and the drop tanks, despite the fact that I believe I have configured the .air file correctly, and removed the conflicting data as well as other FS9 elements from the aircraft.cfg, per the tips that I have been provided to this point.

[bearcat241]

Substitute a stock test model with full fuel and drop tanks, ala P-38, hitting all waypoints. Then test the same without the DT's to note differences in the load and consumption. If there's a bug in that soup as well, then its not the air file setup but some gremlin in the sim coding.


P.S. I don't know if CFS2 recognizes this "modern" section in the aircraft.cfg, but a lot of FS cfgs designed with Airwrench contain it:

[GeneralEngineData]
//0=Piston, 1=Jet, 2=None, 3=Helo-Turbine, 4=Rocket, 5=Turboprop
engine_type = 0
fuel_flow_scalar = 1
engine.0 = 0, 0, 0
min_throttle_limit=0.000000

Maybe if you can lower the flow scalar you might get better mileage. I'm thinking something around 0.75.

[Sarg Willy]

Settings Rami , what are you using ---Auto mixture --Realism -- auto fuel management --- ticked or blanc ?


Having mentioned Bismark,s stoped in the same place , Ck Situatio - defair -- bottom entree --TankSelector=All
and that all tank,s are 100 % full ??

[kelticheart]

Stefano,

Attached. I am using the drop tanks from Morton's AH Hurricane BoB pack.

Got it, I'll look at it and let you know. In the meantime, since I read BC's comments on your type of fuel switch choice, did you try managing each fuel tank separately via MAPE's fuel switches?

In all of my aircraft 2d panels I added a popup window switched on and off by the fuel icon from the stock Concorde gauge set. I then add to it a MAPE fuel switch for every fuel tank listed in the airfile, plus an "ALL" switch, for when I want to have a balanced weight management during long flights. Finally, a switch tied to a non-existent fuel tank (usually, "Center3") provides cutoff, since there's not a specific fuel cutoff switch in the Mape set.

For reading each fuel tank content, I collected all of the fuel gauges I could put my paws on. I found good ones for wing tanks, but I am not too satisfied with fuselage tank gauges and there aren't reliable auxiliary tank gauges that I could find. I place individual fuel tank gauges on the popup panel as well.

This is why, just like BC, I ALWAYS have a standard CFS2 cumulative fuel gauge on the 2d main panel, coupled with its F4F-4 low fuel warning light, which universally works best (and it's also programmable to light up at a set percentage, I set it at 25%), showing me total percentage of fuel on board, or in the droptanks, at any given time.

I always got a good fuel consumption monitoring with this system. I imagine I don't need to suggest to another experienced pilot the advantages of selecting manual fuel, fuel mixture and prop management. By using prop cruising hi-pitches to reduce rpm, lean out the fuel mixture as much as possible and reduce manifold pressure below the suggested cruise settings, one gets longer legs.

At the beginning of the Pacific war, Japanese Naval fighter pilots were masters in this low fuel consumption techniques, giving the impression to Allied observers that there were more Zeros in the theatre than there actually were, since the same planes were able to fly to further distances than expected.

Unfortunately, I think that slewing from waypoint to waypoint (X key) overrides manual fuel settings, shooting to hell any attempt to fine tune them. CFS2 in automatic fuel management is a fuel guzzler.

Cheers!
KH

[Rami]

Hey guys,

I forced myself to take a twenty-four hour moratorium from this because I was really getting frustrated by this. I will look at it this evening with fresh eyes.

[kelticheart]

Hey guys,

I forced myself to take a twenty-four hour moratorium from this because I was really getting frustrated by this. I will look at it this evening with fresh eyes.

...and when all else fails, a new perspective is mandatory:

Cheers!
Stef