Prop textures, material and disppearing items

[Shessi]

Now, I have a confession to make.

I saw that Keilti had a 'rant' about builders/modders etc not being more careful with their prop disc material, and when they get added to the build. I know it wasn't directed at me personally, but it still applied to me. I didn't think there was anything I could do about it.

For those who don't know, if a completely clear spinning prop disc material is used in the build then the prop disc visual properties are purely down to the prop disc tex bmp and it's alpha channel in the sim. Personally I like this as it gives the painter or re-painter total control over how the prop looks, not having to take into consideration the prop disc material colour or clarity.

The problem is if the prop disc material is added before other items, it can cause those items added after, to disappear behing the the prop disc in the sim. Annoying, hard to detect at times, and easily missed.

I had seen before what Keilti re-iterated, but still dismissed it as something I could not do anything about, as he stated that there was a difference between how FSDS and Gmax dealt with the disc material, and that only those compiled in Gmax or re-compiled in Gmax would cure or prevent it. Unfortunately I do most of my work in FSDS.

BUT....I'm in the process of doing the Whitley's and having already added the prop discs, I saw the problem of disappearing crew (added afterwards) behind the prop disc. I decided to try out Keilti's suggestion (of adding the prop disc material last) even though I was in FSDS....and eureka! it worked!!!

So makers, modders etc in FSDS, always add the prop disc material last, and it will prevent this annoying phenomena from happening...................AND everyone will be happy.

Now, the other thing is Keilti, et al, please tell me of any/all ac that I have done, with this problem, and so I can correct them, thanks.

Cheers

Shessi

[Allen]

I have found that the prop disk hiding parts of the aircraft is from bad part linking and/or having the BMP saved in the wrong format. This can be fixed by making the prop disc material transparent. In gMax I set the material to 99 (this means the prop disk has 1% transparency). Doing this also let you save the prop disk in any extended BMP format.

[Shessi]

Hi Allen,
Hear what you say, but I have my prop material as totally transparent and leave it up to the tex and alpha, which can then have a tex saved in any format.

What I found was changing absolutely nothing else except loading the prop disk last, cured it all. I thought from what was being said that it couldn't be 'fixed' in FSDS and could only be done in Gmax, now I know that is not the case.

I have several check list do and don't for FSDS and converting, ie change glass material clarity after compiling and converting, hexing out g_lighstates and crash_check, loading prop disk last, changing shine/reflection after compiling/converting etc etc.

Cheers

Shessi

[Desert Rat]

Shessi,

if only you asked years ago, lol. It's all parts hierarchy, solid parts do not matter, but ANY parts with translucent or transparent materials are affected by part order in the model, FSDS or Gmax. It's a trade off, if you have the glass last the prop disc may vanish behind it and visa-versa.

Now, to make things clearer, if an object like the spinning prop is modelled fully opaque but uses alpha to create transparency, object after it in the model order will vanish behind it (regardless of transparency). As with other parts, ie glass.

All parts that are to be in some way transparent must be modelled that way by material and the last parts in the model (cut and paste them works a treat in FSDS). sorting the order of transparent parts by material is a judgement call, do you want prop discs vanishing behind glass or glass vanishing behind props?The latter is better IMHO, but depends on applied textures (if the glass has any, etc)

Jamie

[kelticheart]

Now, I have a confession to make.

I saw that Keilti had a 'rant' about builders/modders etc not being more careful with their prop disc material, and when they get added to the build. I know it wasn't directed at me personally, but it still applied to me. I didn't think there was anything I could do about it.

For those who don't know, if a completely clear spinning prop disc material is used in the build then the prop disc visual properties are purely down to the prop disc tex bmp and it's alpha channel in the sim. Personally I like this as it gives the painter or re-painter total control over how the prop looks, not having to take into consideration the prop disc material colour or clarity.

The problem is if the prop disc material is added before other items, it can cause those items added after, to disappear behing the the prop disc in the sim. Annoying, hard to detect at times, and easily missed.

I had seen before what Keilti re-iterated, but still dismissed it as something I could not do anything about, as he stated that there was a difference between how FSDS and Gmax dealt with the disc material, and that only those compiled in Gmax or re-compiled in Gmax would cure or prevent it. Unfortunately I do most of my work in FSDS.

BUT....I'm in the process of doing the Whitley's and having already added the prop discs, I saw the problem of disappearing crew (added afterwards) behind the prop disc. I decided to try out Keilti's suggestion (of adding the prop disc material last) even though I was in FSDS....and eureka! it worked!!!

So makers, modders etc in FSDS, always add the prop disc material last, and it will prevent this annoying phenomena from happening...................AND everyone will be happy.

Now, the other thing is Keilti, et al, please tell me of any/all ac that I have done, with this problem, and so I can correct them, thanks.

Cheers

Shessi

Shessi and JDT.........

THANK YOU!

I have no idea why my posts about this subject remained discarded in the buggers heap or simply filed under "forget it pal!" for so long. I brought this subject up so many times, probably because I am not a modeller I was constantly ignored.

It is so bizarre, hideous and unreal looking at this weird phenomena when it happens. It ruins so many beautiful models that I tend to think who created them reached the goal of uploading them and did not care of what happened afterwards. Every effort taken to reach in CFS2 realism, full-immersion, historical soundness, etc, is shot to hell when this "prop disc gremlin" strikes. CFS2 becomes another computer game with details out of place, a poor imitation of real life.

But the solution I offered each time comes from a respected SOH modeller, who uploaded tons of great models still in great use to date by each one of us. I am talking about William Dickens, a.k.a. Bismarck13.

Lemmesee...I am going back to the year 2006, when he uploaded his SM.84 (http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforum...d=150&id=16239).
Since he used one of my first "generic" prop discs, I tried sending him an improved version. During my tests, I saw the prop disc gremlin eating 3/4 of the disc behind fuselage and engine nacelles. I sent him an e-mail about it and he went back to the model trying to discover what had happened.
The light grey colour I use for my prop disc enhances greatly any defect like a faulty off-center spinning animation or the glitch we are talking about. You won't believe how many models with lopsided prop discs I cured by moving the disc around its center one or two pixels at a time in the four directions allowed by the square texture frame. Hours and hours of trial-an-error, back and forth to watch how it looked in Free Flight!

I feel it shouldn't be like that. A correct model should be uploaded, to begin with. Period.

Well, William discovered the solution to the problem in just a couple of days, he corrected the SM.84 mdl, re-uploaded it and sent to me a detailed answer as to what was the problem and how to fix it.

It's precisely the solution you just applied to your work and the very same I offered all along, since then. And it works, doesn't it?

I REST MY CASE.

I could post a list of models ruined by the "prop disc gremlin", I know each one of them.

Shessi, I know you have projects up to your ears, but would you be willing, if that doesn't take a gigantic effort of course, to take a look at some of them built in FSDS and see if the gremlin can be ? As a thank you, I promise to relieve you from the tedious task of going back to everything you uploaded and check for the gremlin. I'll do it for you.

For a starter, the YAS Spit collection I just re-uploaded. Each one of them has the gremlin in the engine top cover, some of them include the wings and even radiators and undercarriage.

Tango's overhauls of ABD B-25 Mitchell, on top of having a disgraceful opaque prop disc material that is displayed almost as solid black, eat up half of the plane and it's so easy to see that the nose gun packs added to the J variant arrived after the prop disc!

WOLFI, SINCE YOU ARE WORKING ON A NEW MODEL, PLEASE READ THIS THREAD!!! YOUR SB2C HELLDIVER HAS THIS PROBLEM, TOGETHER WITH YOUR P-26 PEASHOOTER AND YOUR OTHER MODELS. I think only your Ju87B Stuka is ok, but I am not sure, since I haven't flown it in a while. It's a shame such beautiful models have to be ruined by this gremlin!

Before now I never named eaxctly who's who out of respect and gratitude for hard work freely given. But, aircraft modellers, do hear me: your splendid planes are ruined by a stupid detail that can be fixed with a little effort, since you have all of the source files!

Thanks again for bringing this up, Shessi! Please let us not allow this subject be forgotten again.

Cheers
KH

[Shessi]

Hi Guys,
Jamie, many thanks for the brief, useful info. Although it's not for the lack of asking, it's coz I believed Kelti that it would take Gmax to fix the issue, when clearly it can be done in FSDS. LOL BUT now I know...and that's the main thing.


And Jamie, please don't go....................



Kelti,

HA HA HA! you poor ol' boy, it must have eaten you up for years. I didn't ignore you, I just believed you about Gmax, and as I mainly (and compile totally in) FSDS. If you suggested it to someone directly and they just ignored you then I understand how it bugs you.

So hopefully by bringing it up we can all better understand this problem and bare it in mind.

As you say I have a huge amount of projects on-going, so if you could go through any of my previously issued ac that fall foul of this, let me know and we'll update them. If there are any others that there are source files for, then maybe I could fit some in.

And yes, Kelti, install FSDS and get going yourself. FSDS is much easier and less powerful than Gmax, and WYSIWYG. Changing the order of parts is very easy.


Cheers

Shessi

[Allen]

Shessi,

if only you asked years ago, lol. It's all parts hierarchy, solid parts do not matter, but ANY parts with translucent or transparent materials are affected by part order in the model, FSDS or Gmax. It's a trade off, if you have the glass last the prop disc may vanish behind it and visa-versa.

Now, to make things clearer, if an object like the spinning prop is modelled fully opaque but uses alpha to create transparency, object after it in the model order will vanish behind it (regardless of transparency). As with other parts, ie glass.

All parts that are to be in some way transparent must be modelled that way by material and the last parts in the model (cut and paste them works a treat in FSDS). sorting the order of transparent parts by material is a judgement call, do you want prop discs vanishing behind glass or glass vanishing behind props?The latter is better IMHO, but depends on applied textures (if the glass has any, etc)

Jamie

That sucks....

[Desert Rat]

And Jamie, please don't go....................

I was born in Sheffield moved to Scotland at the tender age of 18 months. Scottish mother, English Father, family in both countries, you do the math, lol.

Jamie 'MacTindall' (no relation to the rugger bu99er)

[wolfi]

I read this post, but never noticed this Problem; I always use transparent Prop material but maybe with wrong Settings, to add the prop material at last is not the Problem will do it with my new Project. To redo all old aircraft would be a lot of work!


Here is my helldiver front view, that's the original uploaded model.

wolfi

[kelticheart]

I read this post, but never noticed this Problem; I always use transparent Prop material but maybe with wrong Settings, to add the prop material at last is not the Problem will do it with my new Project. To redo all old aircraft would be a lot of work!


Here is my helldiver front view, that's the original uploaded model.

wolfi

Wolfi,

you probably do not remember, but I did send you several e-mails with screenshots to show you what was wrong and your reply was that you did not understand what was the problem. I even suggested you to get in touch with William Dickens and sent you his e-mail address. I still have those messages on my old pc. The shots attached below are the same I sent you back then with:

1. the Helldiver wings, undercarriage, canopy, exhaust stubs and bomb bay doors in front of the prop disc. Even if the shot you attached seems to be ok, it's only the lighting that hides the problem: you must head directly towards the sun to see the gremlin!
2. The P-26 shows all those details in front of the propdisc.
3. The Ju87B has "only" the outer semi-wings that hide the propdisc.

The faulty details are clearly highlighted, I haven't had the time to check carefully your Ki-27, Ki-44 and the Ki-57 Topsy. I'll do it over the weekend.

Since I have never tried to build an airplane, at the time I could not offer you technical explanations, so I simply gave up because I also did not want to annoy you and spoil our friendship.

Your new Vultee Vengeance has exactly the very same problems, as you can see below. According to Shessi's explanation it seems like you built the fuselage with engine and propeller first, then you added wings, tailplane, vertical fin and undercarriage (or landing gear for our US friends). The attached picture shows clearly the results.
If you added the propeller disc to the model before other parts of the airplane, it's inevitable that now the propdisc disappears behind those details added afterwards.
It's another one of those CFS2 bugs that can only be overcame with the model building sequence as explained very well by both Shessi and JDT.

I am also attaching a suitable propdisk from my newest production (shown in the screenshot) for your Vengeance project.

Cheers!
KH

[kelticheart]

HI THERE!

First report: the Me410 Hornisse. Shown below details hiding the prop disk. You know already about Ted Cook's Wellington MkX, don't you?

Thank you for your suggestion to get involved with FSDS, it means you have a lot of faith in me..... With all the CFS2 things I am currently involved, in all truth I wouldn't know where to find the necessary time to learn it.
I cannot even keep track of everything, since everytime something new comes up I drop what I am doing and get involved with the new stuff. I've got tons of aircrafts and assorted downloaded materials, including some of your great production, still waiting to be installed (some of it waiting to be checked thoroughly, too).

For example, I never tried your work on the Heinkel He177 Greif................ Flying missions? What is it? Something to eat?

Besides, I haven't got all of the necessary historical sources to start building aircrafts. I imagine accurate dimensions of all given aircraft parts would be necessary, for example.
Those can only be found in manufacturer's blueprints, while I only have few Aerospace publications, the Jane's Bible (inaccurate as well, sometimes) and some stuff I downloaded.


Thank you!
KH

[wolfi]

Well, now I understand the problem. I thought, parts are disappearing behind the prop disk (and the parts are still there).
Ok, to solve this problem with the old models would be a whole lot of work, so I think those models has to live with this problem, but for the new models I can take care about the problem and will add the blurred prop disk at last
wolfi

[Sarg Willy]

My good friend , Kelti , where were you when M$s built this game , with you as quality control inspector , what a work of art we could have had !!

[The B24 Guy]

Hi Guys,

I had to see if I could fix it. See if this works I only did the main LOD.

Regards,
B24Guy

[dvslats]

Hi Guys,

Would this anomaly also apply to canopy\no ground shadow also?

Attachment 12419

BTW, I think you need your original avatar B24 Guy.

Attachment 12420

[Shessi]

Dave,
I don't know for certain, but I think that happens when there is little or no internal fuselage.

Unfortunately without the source file (unless you have that) or ripping it, there's no way of correcting it.

Cheers

Shessi

[wolfi]

As Shessi said, you need an internal model, or a shadow model added to solve this problem.

[Shessi]

Hi Kelti,
I have to agree, some of the issues are hard to see.

I think that some the issues are made worse by using your much lighter/whiter spinning prop disk. I use a much darker prop disk and this issue is not noticiable at all. Why not try some darker prop disk profiles of your props?

BUT, having said that, the disappearing items issue is totally unacceptable, and where would we be without critique and improvement!

I'm re-doing the Me410A, Wellington X and the Manchester Ia, they will be issued in your honour as the Kelti Prop Disk Improvement Pack.

In the mean time if there are any others that you find let me know, ASAP please....as there is so much to do and so little time....

Cheers

Shessi

[dvslats]

So its something totally different. Ok, thanks Shessi and wolfi.

[kelticheart]

Hi Kelti,
I have to agree, some of the issues are hard to see.

I think that some the issues are made worse by using your much lighter/whiter spinning prop disk. I use a much darker prop disk and this issue is not noticiable at all. Why not try some darker prop disk profiles of your props?

BUT, having said that, the disappearing items issue is totally unacceptable, and where would we be without critique and improvement!

I'm re-doing the Me410A, Wellington X and the Manchester Ia, they will be issued in your honour as the Kelti Prop Disk Improvement Pack.

In the mean time if there are any others that you find let me know, ASAP please....as there is so much to do and so little time....

Cheers

Shessi

Thank you, Noble Sir.

I am so glad you didn't take me for a rivet-counter. I have the highest respect for all the volunteers without whom CFS2 would have remained just another pc game, stashed away and forgotten after completing both stock US and Japanese campaigns.

You are absolutely right about the light grey colour enhancing prop animation defects instead of hiding them. The reason why I chose such colour is because, to my eyes, it ensures the best transparency ratio under all kinds of light angles. When you want to see possible defects with my prop textures, either head directly towards the sun or find, as I do, a runway oriented 90/270 degs and set your day time to morning or early evening, depending upon where's the heading set by Free Flight.

All prop disc textures, going from stock to addon uploads, are painted with extremely dark grey or brown shades, when not entirely black. All of those lack the transparency that can be seen in real life, even when prop blades are painted black. A good example can be seen in the film uploaded in the Duxford Legends website http://player.vimeo.com/video/93587997, already posted here by Highpockets.
When aircrafts head directly towards the camera, their prop discs are almost invisible, I also saw that every time I attended the rare airshows organised here in Italy, or general aviation prop planes in small airports and that's where I got my first inspirations.

I used darker shades of gray, but only because the result was so light that the prop disc could be barely seen. I noticed that happens usually when the prop disc is formed by a front and a back surface, to ensure the normal thickness that can be seen from a lateral view.

In the past, several people complained that prop discs are not flat discs and they do not disappear when seen laterally, as they do with stock planes and the great majority of addons. Prop discs designed with a front and a back surface want to address such problem.

Speaking of which, aircrafts that have a thick prop disc that I can remember, most notably: Ted Cooks' Wellington MkX and Hampden MkI, AH's Hurricane MkI for CFS2, Malinowski's P-47s and Ju88/188. I had to use a daker grey shade to make their disc props visible.

I just updated the prop disc of another beautiful model. Sadly, the disc disappears almost entirely behind parts of the airplane and even more sadly, it's the only good quality model we have for this plane. I am talking about Ignacio Mendive's Fiat G.55.

I am installing all of the aircrafts you worked on in the past, to see if there are other ones with the prop disc gremlin. If any, I'll post the list a.s.a.p. as you asked.

THANK YOU!
KH

[kelticheart]

Hi Guys,

I had to see if I could fix it. See if this works I only did the main LOD.

Regards,
B24Guy

Thanks, The B24Guy!

I'll try it out and let you know!

Cheers!
KH

[Shessi]

Hi Kelti,
Yes I understand about colours and clarity of props disks, prop disks look so good in Fs9. Unfortunately CFS2 deal with the alpha channels differently, and obviously do not look as good. It is great to have a choice of colour and clarity!

Unfortunately I can't deal with those ac that there are not source files for, as it would mean re-animating the ac again etc.

I'll await your reports!


Cheers

Shessi

[kelticheart]

....at least! The upgraded model FW200 Condor, you recently uploaded, works just fine.

Onto the next one.

Cheers!
KH

[Shessi]

BRAVO!


Shessi

[kelticheart]

Hi there,

I just checked your latest release of the He177 Greif. .....Houston, we have a problem.......

There isn't any texture file for the prop disc and what's displayed is simply the mdl disc.

It's easy to catch, since it's untextured and not round, but polygonal as you can see below. It can be seen very well even in the screenshots you included in the upload.

Since the same prop disc texture file worked very well for both the old GC's FW200 and the new one you uploaded, I tried adding a 4-blade "prop3.bmp" texture, as it is in the original GC's He177. No joy. Can you figure it out?

Other than the above, it seems that the prop disc is correctly displayed with no gremlins, but I'd wait until we can try a proper prop disc texture.

Is there any particular model you'd like me to check out next?

Cheers!
KH