Might wanna be sitting down for this one...

**heywooood** · January 24th, 2009, 21:30

I like the SOH idea of setting up a private forum for any ACES team or staff members to use - seems to me a helpful way for some folks to 'decompress' as well as to stay in touch with each other and maybe network on new job possibilities.

...sure would like to be a fly on the wall though...

too bad about TS2 - I guess some other developer is going to have to try to come up with something on that front.

stupid ignorant M$

**Lionheart** · January 24th, 2009, 22:03

I saw an interesting program tonight.. This guy was part of a group. They all sent in $75.00 dollars (actually 35,00 Pounds Sterling) and they all purchased a Football Team in England..!

I wonder... If we did all stand behind the guys at Aces, could we form a sort of public ownership coop and actually raise the money and purchase the franchise from MS? Would they be willing to sell the code? If they have a copy of the code and we had a copy of the code 'owned outright' to do with what we all wanted, we could convert it to OpenGL, we could make a Mac version, the sky would be the limit and no bean counters could interject and screw everything up....!

hmm...

Bill

**P-12C** · January 24th, 2009, 22:23

We (the team at large) did ask about the possibility of buying the IP, but the answer was that MS believes in the IP and would not be willing to sell it.

tigisfat · January 24th, 2009, 22:52

Originally Posted by heywooood

I like the SOH idea of setting up a private forum for any ACES team or staff members to use - seems to me a helpful way for some folks to 'decompress' as well as to stay in touch with each other and maybe network on new job possibilities.

...sure would like to be a fly on the wall though...

too bad about TS2 - I guess some other developer is going to have to try to come up with something on that front.

stupid ignorant M$

I'm sure they'er too smart to "decompress" here in certain stretches of the term. Nearly everything we'd think they would discuss is confidential.

***Francois*** · January 24th, 2009, 23:28

Originally Posted by P-12C

We (the team at large) did ask about the possibility of buying the IP, but the answer was that MS believes in the IP and would not be willing to sell it.

Which is exactly what I'd expect them to say !
Hi Paul !!! Hope you got my email !? :wave:

**empeck** · January 25th, 2009, 01:16

Originally Posted by Lionheart

I saw an interesting program tonight.. This guy was part of a group. They all sent in $75.00 dollars (actually 35,00 Pounds Sterling) and they all purchased a Football Team in England..!

It happens from time to time, when Not a Number, a company behind Blender was closed they sold Blender IP, source code to community for 100000 Euro, the money was collected by members of community. Now Blender is Open Source, and it's getting better with every release.

Paul - best wishes for you guys, too bad Microsoft didn't want to sell you the IP.

**Lionheart** · January 25th, 2009, 01:20

Originally Posted by P-12C

We (the team at large) did ask about the possibility of buying the IP, but the answer was that MS believes in the IP and would not be willing to sell it.

darn...

What if you got a huge gaming firm to carry it and make a offer with 'huge figures'? like Obi-Soft...?

Bill

EDIT: You probably already did.. arrgh.

EDIT 2: Well.. If you guys are motivated enough, you could darn well create a new sim game engine, and being that its fresh from scratch, it might be a neater, cleaner running, more efficient sim engine. This might turn into a blessing. No bean counters from MS telling you when to launch, how many to hire, etc.... Just focus on the game engine and have fun!

Bill

***Francois*** · January 25th, 2009, 01:44

From going through the recent (gaming) industry news many of the HUGE gaming companies are in trouble themselves (Ubisoft, EA et other). So I don't think they'll even want FS, especially since it is tiny in comparison to the shoot-em-ups, run-em-downs and hop-em-overs that people play on consoles. (And yes, I play racing games and Brothers in Arms and many of those things myself... but it is just not the same league).

**CBris** · January 25th, 2009, 04:03

So as much as we think otherwise, we FS Simmers are a minority group...

In that sense you have to understand Microsoft. Oh well, such is business.

**extrudinator** · January 25th, 2009, 05:49

If Microsoft actually fired all of the people they will need to build the new metaverse, then Steve Ballmer missed shooting himself in the foot and actually hit his own head. Google can hire them all and Microsoft will fall away like the old Roman Empire.

**crashaz** · January 25th, 2009, 07:05

Originally Posted by P-12C

We (the team at large) did ask about the possibility of buying the IP, but the answer was that MS believes in the IP and would not be willing to sell it.

Damn... well that answered my question. I know a guy who has that kind of money. Right now he is negotiations to buy an oil refinery if he wanted.. merely has to snap his fingers.

However if MS wont sell I guess we just have to wait for the inevitable:

FS for XBOX.

Which I will not buy.

I know those are the guys running the Entertainment Division. So when the news broke about this so called annual conference was held.. and they had to decide where to make cuts... they thought... lets get rid of the PC gaming guys once and for all... we will get rid of the flagship.

I was a Microsoft loyal customer because of the goodwill of Flight Simulator and team...now that goodwill is gone. They just shut the doors to the whole shop.. no apologies, no explanation.

I am going to be making it my mission to go into every business opportunity and push MS CRM out the door... if I have to lower my profits... so be it... Saleslogix in.... MSCRM out.

Thanks for filling us in Paul.

Glad you guys asked.

**Bjoern** · January 25th, 2009, 07:22

Originally Posted by Holger Sandmann

Hi guys,

as for the TS2 release date, now obsolete, see http://tsinsider.com/product/overview.aspx

I don't think it was in Beta yet but pretty far advanced. Can you imagine putting all that creative energy into a huge project like this and then someone from upstairs tells you and your colleagues to clear your desk within 24 hours, and don't forget to switch off the lights...

So they pulled a Fallout 3/Command & Conquer:Tiberium on TS2? Ouch!

Originally Posted by Lionheart

What if you got a huge gaming firm to carry it and make a offer with 'huge figures'? like Obi-Soft...?

Please, for the love of the big guy, no! Neither Ubisoft nor EA nor THQ are fit and worthy to have a serious flight simulator in their portfolio.

Either find a small, independent publisher (Stardock?), found a new one or can FS for good.

But I won't accept any DRM terror from the big players in the game business anymore!
(Although Ubisoft has somehow seen the light and published two or three recent games without any DRM at all...)

**bkeske** · January 25th, 2009, 08:14

Originally Posted by crashaz

FS for XBOX.

Which I will not buy.

Neither would I, or most any serious flight simmer.

I do believe this transformation would have happened eventually, and we would be exactly where we are now. It just happened more unexpectedly than if it were announced ahead of time.

IMO, PC simulation's are becoming increasingly more rare, and because of that, may be hard to justify the amount of cash MS was capable of throwing at it.

...but....if X-Plane has had some success, perhaps there is hope, as I truly believe the real stars of the 'flight sim world' are, or have been, associated with the Sub-Logic/MS/Fly products. We have some of the best of the best within the MS based community, I hope they continue on, and perhaps our supersede our expectations. They always seem to.

**crashaz** · January 25th, 2009, 08:26

How much would it cost to start from the ground up? Made a phone call and let them know that FS is not for sale.

Now they want to know how long it would take to write from the ground up?

I figure 3 years at a cost of $8-10 million a year. Which is much less then what they would purchase an oil refinery for.

I did look up last night that in 2007 FSX sold 280K copies... @ $50/copy that is $14 million.

I did not give them that figure though. Wanted to ask what the former ACES team thought. These guys I talked to would not go without key members of the team.

Drop me a PM if you don't want to discuss publically guys.

**empeck** · January 25th, 2009, 08:27

It's interesting, what is going on in the simming world. Big studios doesn't make sims anymore. After Ubisoft published Il2 and LockOn, they don't have even one simulation title in their portfolio (well, they may be the Storm of War: Battle of Britain publisher, but official SoW forums are hosted at 1C, not at Ubi).

All upcoming flight sims, maybe except SoW are being made by small groups of hobbyists. I think we can't count on big publishers anymore.

**P-12C** · January 25th, 2009, 12:13

I can feel the anger, and I'm sure the anger will increase before it decreases.

They are declining to sell the IP because I honestly believe they want to bring it back... later. The problem would be that it gets more and more difficult to bring it back as it is today (albeit with improvements) the longer time marches on without the knowledge in the team members heads the harder it will be to bring back.

Maybe it will be reinvented with new stuff, which might require new ideas, or maybe it won't.

I do believe there is hope, but it will likely be a long road and may not look quite the same.

I do still technically work at Microsoft, and I intend to find a position at Microsoft, so I certainly won't slam the company overall. The decisions they are making may actually end up with all of us in a better situation down the road.

Originally Posted by crashaz

Damn... well that answered my question. I know a guy who has that kind of money. Right now he is negotiations to buy an oil refinery if he wanted.. merely has to snap his fingers.

However if MS wont sell I guess we just have to wait for the inevitable:

FS for XBOX.

Which I will not buy.

I know those are the guys running the Entertainment Division. So when the news broke about this so called annual conference was held.. and they had to decide where to make cuts... they thought... lets get rid of the PC gaming guys once and for all... we will get rid of the flagship.

I was a Microsoft loyal customer because of the goodwill of Flight Simulator and team...now that goodwill is gone. They just shut the doors to the whole shop.. no apologies, no explanation.

I am going to be making it my mission to go into every business opportunity and push MS CRM out the door... if I have to lower my profits... so be it... Saleslogix in.... MSCRM out.

Thanks for filling us in Paul.

Glad you guys asked.

**rhumbaflappy** · January 25th, 2009, 12:30

Thanks for the clarification Paul.

I understand 6 team mambers are keft to settle outstanding contracts, and archive the data and code. Hopefully these guys will do a great job. If the FS series gets resurrected, that code, and whoever can come back to the new team, will be the only links to the FS past.

Good luck Paul! Hope you get the new job.

Dick

**Lionheart** · January 25th, 2009, 12:57

Originally Posted by extrudinator

If Microsoft actually fired all of the people they will need to build the new metaverse, then Steve Ballmer missed shooting himself in the foot and actually hit his own head. Google can hire them all and Microsoft will fall away like the old Roman Empire.

LOL...

That would be a bit funny. Google taking over MS.

Back to the topic.. I believe it is the people that make a company, not the machines, and in this case, the code. The code is all upstairs, in the 'noggin'. A new code could be born, a better, cleaner code. And a firm could be created, a new studio, that would not be controlled by the suits..

Then, that 14million would go into the 'New World' Studio and not the mistaken antics of suit-world..

And.. If other studios like Obi-Soft isnt interested, that too could be an incredible blessing.. Remember, all these guys that started Apple, MS, and alot of these game studios, they started up in garages, holes in the wall, small biz suites... They lived on snacks and Mountain Dew for a year or two.. Look at them now, millionaires.. You might have to starve, but what you sew, you reap; what you invest, you will get back... What you put into your own work, the investment, will yeild it back to you many fold..

Bill

**Gibbage** · January 25th, 2009, 13:16

Originally Posted by Bjoern

Either outsource development to a competent team or assemble a new one including some of the old dogs from ACES.

Sorry. I take this comment a little personally. I have never seen a more competent team ever in my life. A LOT of the people there had there pilots license and 10-25 years of experience. I dont know how more competent you could get for a flight sim team.

**bkeske** · January 25th, 2009, 13:16

With the advent and popularity of X-Box (and such), and the demise of PC 'Gaming'/simulations, I have to wonder if companies that have a stake in PC simulations surviving would be interested in underwriting (or helping) a new endeavor.

If you think about what companies may have an interest, obviously NVIDIA and AMD/ATI come to mind. Intel?

Just a thought.

**cheezyflier** · January 25th, 2009, 13:47

the reason pc can't compete with the gaming console is because the console only runs the game, and nothing else. naturally, you get better performance, and the initial cost is waaayy less for the consumer. the result was inevitable.

**crashaz** · January 25th, 2009, 13:59

How in the world does one find people that know how to make a flight simulator??

Sure a lot of us here know how to make models and scenery etc..... but how many people how to code physics? Code flight parameters, code weather realtime? Code reading Geographic information and create a rendered world.

Who knows how to code eye catching renders,shaders and light?!?

I am not worried about the code. It's the resources.... the people.... they have all been thrown to the winds! It would be at least 2 years (at the earliest) before someone goes shakes off the dust to think about opening the crate up... how long would it take to gather a group of people with that much experience??

Then the eventual coding may start... another 2 years down the road...

folks we may not see FS again for another 6-7 years.

Now to those of you saying that this may not be a bad thing.... why don't you open up your copy of FS2000 and fly with that.... see how you like it now.

That is what FSX will look like before we get another.

**Chuck_Jodry-VJPL** · January 25th, 2009, 14:26

"That would be a bit funny. Google taking over MS."<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com

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Google taking the time to develop a flight sim ..., they did ...and it’s part of Google earth ,, 3D scenery .... they did and released a free and easy to use tool to produce it , the Google earth Flight Simulation module is an XML ,, so what’s missing are aircraft models, and the flight dynamics , the photo real scenery aint half bad , it’s what i get from Tile Proxy.. <o

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Funny is that MS did not find room in their Windows Live Xbox platform for the talent the just gave the competing companies .<o

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Funny is that i do not need to upgrade my machine to keep up with the demands made upon it by a new sim every couple of years , i am going to save a small fortune not needing to worry about DX11 , Windows7 , yada yada yada , hell i can even try a Mac laptop next as compatibility isn’t an issue and forget about desktop computers all together since what i need to by is a console , and Wii even think about an Xbox ? the company that makes them sent them out with major problems because it was cheaper to repair the 2% of them that come back than add a bloody part to the production run ... " aligned against the companies priorities " that’s what they did all right, to the consumer base ... gobble gobble <o

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**fliger747** · January 25th, 2009, 14:54

The primary advantage of the MS series for the enthuisast is/was the ability to produce addons. Such is why in many ways CFS2 is still a fine sim!

Other platforms have attempted to keep everything close to the vest. It's an attitude, which in hardware that has kept me away from Apple.

$14,000,000 in sales for FSX? There are guys on campus there (rarefied air) that probably get a bonus bigger than that.

Cheers: T.

harleyman · January 25th, 2009, 15:02

Well I still think that our beloved FSX and FS9,and older ones ,are going to be just fine for quite a while...

However...... I really wanted TS2 darn it...........