Freeware Development and Rivet Counters

[GarryJSmith]

Unfortunately since the beginning of my association with FlightSim and graphics, back in 1998, I have seen the rivet counters hammer freeware developers with their expectations of perfection (in their eyes). I have seen many painters, model makers, and scenery designers come and go and a large volume ultimately give up due to the public floggings in forums by these rivet counters.

Very rarely do the FREEWARE user even bother to acknowledge or appreciate the fact that they are getting others peoples hard efforts for FREE. There is an almost a pervasive outlook in the simming community that we are ENTITLED to get FREE stuff and ENTITLED to critique or even slander those that give us the free stuff.

Basically we seem to have lost the concept of FREEWARE being a PRIVILAGE that it is shared with us.

Very very rare to ever see - "WOW - thanks mate for sharing this with me" from the simming community. Yes, sometimes, what some could class as junk, is published - but that junk is often many hard hours of slogging with unfamiliar tools, learning and effort and often some personal financial costs by the developer and he/she wants to share that time and effort with others. Knock or critique too hard and the enthusiasm disappears and we possible loose another budding developer.

This Rivet Counter mindset and the loss of the concept of a PRIVILAGE that freeware is being shared with us is harming our most precious simming resource. Imagine simming with only payware products - the contribution of freeware developers have kept simming alive since its inception - many sites exist only because of the volume of freeware that is published by amateur developers and shared with us because they choose to do so.

There is a fine line between critique and guidance - many developers appreciate guidance but disdain critiques that are unwarranted, ignorant, or downright malicious in content.

In a nutshell, lets show some appreciation every now and again for what we get for free from a plethora of developers - encourage the budding developer - everyone starts somewhere on the quality scale and improves with guidance and appreciation - all we have to do is put in a little time for constructive feedback and support and we all win.

And finally to the Rivet Counters - if you don't like it - just don't use it - or even better - do a better rendition yourself and share it with us.

[skyhawka4m]

hmmmm.....did I miss something?

As to freeware.....I have seen numerous freeware items put out that were nice in their own accord....but then a talented paint such as Bomber12th gets his mitts on it and all of a sudden its a new plane. I for one feel that those who put out freeware should be thanks over and over again, and those painters, like Bomber12th who bring new life to an old model....should be thanked also for all the hard work and time it took to put new life into an older project.

[gaucho_59]

Unfortunately since the beginning of my association with FlightSim and graphics, back in 1998, I have seen the rivet counters hammer freeware developers with their expectations of perfection (in their eyes). I have seen many painters, model makers, and scenery designers come and go and a large volume ultimately give up due to the public floggings in forums by these rivet counters.

Very rarely do the FREEWARE user even bother to acknowledge or appreciate the fact that they are getting others peoples hard efforts for FREE. There is an almost a pervasive outlook in the simming community that we are ENTITLED to get FREE stuff and ENTITLED to critique or even slander those that give us the free stuff.

Basically we seem to have lost the concept of FREEWARE being a PRIVILAGE that it is shared with us.

Very very rare to ever see - "WOW - thanks mate for sharing this with me" from the simming community. Yes, sometimes, what some could class as junk, is published - but that junk is often many hard hours of slogging with unfamiliar tools, learning and effort and often some personal financial costs by the developer and he/she wants to share that time and effort with others. Knock or critique too hard and the enthusiasm disappears and we possible loose another budding developer.

This Rivet Counter mindset and the loss of the concept of a PRIVILAGE that freeware is being shared with us is harming our most precious simming resource. Imagine simming with only payware products - the contribution of freeware developers have keep simming alive since its inception - many sites exist only because of the volume of freeware that is published by amateur developers and shared with us because they choose to do so.

There is a fine line between critique and guidance - many developers appreciate guidance but disdain critiques that are unwarranted, ignorant, or downright malicious in content.

In a nutshell, lets show some appreciation every now and again for what we get for free from a plethora of developers - encourage the budding developer - everyone starts somewhere on the quality scale and improves with guidance and appreciation - all we have to do is put in a little time for constructive feedback and support and we all win.

And finally to the Rivet Counters - if you don't like it - just don't use it - or even better - do a better rendition yourself and share it with us.

You said it all Gary!!! :salute:

[andersel]

Well said, Garry. As I have said before, I greatly appreciate the efforts of all the modelers, painters and scenery makers that bless us with the products of their hard work. And I will continue to do so. Thank you VERY MUCH to all of you, both individually and collectively.

LA

[ViperPilot2]

That's why the majority of the airplanes I have in my Hangar are freeware airplanes. There are some very good ones out there, and I will continue to support freeware creators, regardless of the Sim platform.

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[Bushpounder]

Hi, Garry! Man, a voice from the past! You are spot on. The attitude across the community was totally different when there was more freeware. I miss those days, they were fun, and because so many were a part of the designing process, it made a tighter community. I'm seeing more and more complaining by those who cannot draw a straight line, make a 3-D object, or color a circle in. I also am knocked over by those who have never flown a real airplane, but know how they should feel and fly like. Amazing. The community needs to accept all levels of contributions, if they don't like, delete it, but don't bully the poor guy or gal for trying. Everyone starts at a beginning. I also urge those who have never flown to go try it sometime. They will see that not all planes are fast little race vehicles with 720 degree per second rollrates. My 2 cents!

Don

[Hughes-MDflyer4]

What you say is very true, Garry. Sadly, those who critique won't change their ways, nor will they ever see it the way you do. I learned this with our latest freeware when a guy commented and said he was completely dissatisfied. It was the only negative comment we got on the add-on. A number people talked back to this guy, but nothing made him believe that he was wrong to say what he did. There will always be ungrateful people in this community...in every community, really.

[falcon409]

Hi, Garry! Man, a voice from the past! You are spot on. The attitude across the community was totally different when there was more freeware. I miss those days, they were fun, and because so many were a part of the designing process, it made a tighter community. I'm seeing more and more complaining by those who cannot draw a straight line, make a 3-D object, or color a circle in. I also am knocked over by those who have never flown a real airplane, but know how they should feel and fly like. Amazing. The community needs to accept all levels of contributions, if they don't like, delete it, but don't bully the poor guy or gal for trying. Everyone starts at a beginning. I also urge those who have never flown to go try it sometime. They will see that not all planes are fast little race vehicles with 720 degree per second roll rates. My 2 cents!
Don

Ain't it the truth Don. . .good points. We've all seen a lot of those "experts" come and go. . .seldom admitting anything other than the fact that we were wrong to disagree with their "facts", lol. . . .and it has always amazed me that folks who will admit to not ever having flown anything will fight tooth and nail about an FDE which they say just doesn't "feel" right based on what they've read, lol "huh?" There will always be those and they will "always" be right and we'll just chuckle under our breath, shake our heads and move on. There are some folks who just aren't worth getting upset over and this community, in general, is just too much fun to be bothered by them.:salute:

[Paul Domingue]

Well said Gary! :salute:

In a large community you have all types of people and personalities and sometimes people say things without realizing what it might mean to another reader, it is what it is. I for one have been creating freeware models not only as a hobby but in the hopes I can give back something for the freeware development that has made flight sim so enjoyable for me over the years. There are so many fine people who have donated their time and effort over the years and I thank them whole heartedly not only for their freeware development but also for that helping hand when I was stuck. I intend to and do help others who are starting in this hobby when ever I can and I say to them don't get discouraged and keep plugging at it.

Paul

[GarryJSmith]

Concur with the outlook that there has been, and will always be, rivet counters - however, we do not have to tolerate abuse from them.

As mentioned, it is hard to draw a line between abuse and constructive critique - but if it is obviously abuse then we as a community should challenge the poster to justify there expertise which warranted the critique and invite them to do the job better and share with us.

Since starting this thread several PM's and e-mails have come through from those that have given up on providing Freeware in the recent past because of rivet counters - surprisingly more than we would think and that is just from SOH patrons. Every one that we loose is a loss of a contributor to our simming hobby. Who knows what little nuggets of excellence we are now missing out on........

I know, from many years of experience, that you will never convince a rivet counter that their perspective is "unique" or unwarranted - particularly as they seem to enjoy the fame and controversy of their threads, but we can inform them that their abuse is unacceptable to the community by continuing to support/defend the FREEWARE developers against the rivet counters outlandish posts.

Not on an "Anti Rivet Counter" warpath here - just disappointed that we are loosing Freeware developers to the ramblings of the rivet counters professing expertise or demanding Pro Quality from Freeware developers.

Regards - happy simming for us all.

[anthony31]

Spot on Garry.

Been thinking the exact same thing lately.

[StormILM]

As a long time user of some great freeware (and payware products), simply said, I am very grateful for the freeware works that have been given to us. I do all I can to make my thanks known to the devs and I try to give back to the community by doing tweaks/enhancements after release(if needed or to add to an already good model). We the "Poly Hungry" masses need to be grateful and patient with those who do so much and ask for little or nothing in return.

[ViperPilot2]

Hello, Don!

It's been a while, but good to see you again! Incidentally I have a couple of your earlier works in my Hangar; the Lockheed AL-60 and your Pilatus Porter, which I use all the time, along with a few of your Alaska scenery packages. (Talk about oldies...)

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[Francois]

Hi Garry !!! :-)

I guess I've been in this hobby a tad longer than most...... started with computer flightsims back in 1979 .... BOY does that make me feel old, I shouldn't have mentioned it !!

And like I said in a previous post, I learned to basically IGNORE all the bad things and people (although, to be honest, secretly my blood still boils once in awhile) because over all these decades I found that it will NOT change, no matter what 'we' say, write or do..... if it is your HOBBY, you shouldn't care less and you WILL find like minded folks to share it with. If it is your JOB you soldn't care too much either, because you cannot work well and not like what you do IMHO.

So I am always happy to mail and exchange forum posts with tose people I know who CARE and remain LOYAL to the hobby in general AND are civilized enough to remain friends.

For all the rest...... I sorta imagine they are part of these new fangled reality series were people just swear at each other and TV viewers (must also be of the same kind) love seeing it. Count me out on that :isadizzy:

Now, the best thing we can do to maintain our hobby is to BUILD things ourselves....... which is exactly what I am doing, so I have to run. Bye all !!

[AussieMan]

For years I was involved in the model railway hobby and 'rivet counters' were a real scourge there. It was hard enough putting a line of rivets on a HO (1:87) scale model but when lack of space forced me to go to N (1:160) scale it was even harder. People expected you to have the exact number of rivets.

Like you Garry my attitude was the same as yours.

[Dino Cattaneo]

My two cents on the "freeware/rivet counter" plague...

During my FS-development carreer (more than 10 years!!!) I have received all sorts of harsh, unpolite and sometimes plain destructive criticism... My attitude, regardless of who the sender was and the degree of harshness, has always been like this:
1 - Does this guy have point?
2 - Can I make my plane better?
3 - If so how long it would take and would it be fun?
...and then eventually upgrade the product.

Life is too short to give too much importance to what, basically, it is just a videogame - and it is way too short to whine about virtual rivets.

I really appreciate the "thank you" messages I receive from time to time - but they are just a fraction of the user base of my planes (1-2% maybe?). Does that hurt my feelings as freeware developer? No. I do what I do because I like it and it is fun and that's it. Criticism is welcome in any form, BUT if it is polite, accurate and resonable there is a much higher chance it helps me making better aicrafts.

[Sascha66]

Life is too short to give too much importance to what, basically, it is just a videogame - and it is way too short to whine about virtual rivets.

I really appreciate the "thank you" messages I receive from time to time - but they are just a fraction of the user base of my planes (1-2% maybe?). Does that hurt my feelings as freeware developer? No. I do what I do because I like it and it is fun and that's it. Criticism is welcome in any form, BUT if it is polite, accurate and resonable there is a much higher chance it helps me making better aicrafts.

Well said! That is a very sanguine attitude - I know that I don't like people flaming my stuff which is why I am always reluctant to release it, and why I have come to do this at SOH in fact because people are more civil and encouraging here.
Sascha

[rdaniell]

I have just started releasing some of my scenery projects here at the Outhouse. As far as I know they have been fairly well received. I must admit to feeling "let down" somewhat when I first started due to an almost total lack of posted responses. After conversations with a few Outhouse members, however, I now realize that is the "norm."

I have no problem accepting that as the main reason I do scenery projects is for my enjoyment. If they add to someone's else's immersion into virtual flying, that's just icing on the cake.

RD

[kilo delta]

It's been said many times before here...but..

The developer should build THEIR model first and foremost to THEIR OWN satisfaction. If the end user wants to nitpick or ridicule the end result then in the words of one of our own freeware dev's (Bjoern, a guy who got up off his ass and taught himself how to build some excellent freeware FS models) "they can f...... f... right off"

[aeronca1]

Oh, man, if you think rivet counters here are a bane, visit an IPMS (International Plastic Modellers' Society) meeting sometime. Rivet counters here are amateurs compared to the crap that goes on there. I remember a first time visitor bringing in a large scale model of the Centurion tank and being told it was all wrong, painted in the wrong colours etc., and not even being remotely apologetic when it was discovered that the gentleman involved was the commander of that particular tank and lived with it on a daily basis. A-Holes exist everywhere. The trick is giving them the amount of respect they deserve, ZIP!

[glennc]

I very much appreciate the effort of the developers, paid and otherwise, because there is no way I can do what they do. I don't know if developers can see who is downloading their products here in the SOH. If I'm not saying anything its just because I don't have anything to say that hasn't already been said, or it just doesn't fit my FSX style.

Glenn

[Jafo]

Ah....probably 3 variations of the same theme...depending on the scenario....

Those that can - do. Those that can't - teach.

Those that can - do. Those that can't - criticize.

Those that can - do. Those that can't - count rivets.


As for Dino....his stuff is just brilliant......now if only he could concede that a Thud is 'almost' a carrier bird...[it has a hook] ... and could/would do one to the class/standard of his Cat ....

[ThinkingManNeil]

FS wouldn't be anywhere without dedicated developers - freeware or pay. It's the designers, modelers, scenery designers, and re-painters that have made flight simming what it is; it would get pretty old pretty fast with just the base packs. I maintain that rivet counters have only three places in this world: NASA, aircraft manufacturers, and judging Grand Champions at Oshkosh for the EAA.

N.

[Daveroo]

Oh, man, if you think rivet counters here are a bane, visit an IPMS (International Plastic Modellers' Society) meeting sometime. Rivet counters here are amateurs compared to the crap that goes on there. I remember a first time visitor bringing in a large scale model of the Centurion tank and being told it was all wrong, painted in the wrong colours etc., and not even being remotely apologetic when it was discovered that the gentleman involved was the commander of that particular tank and lived with it on a daily basis. A-Holes exist everywhere. The trick is giving them the amount of respect they deserve, ZIP!

now thats funny..i built a model of my first hobby stock,i used the correct year and model of the real pontiac ,but i left the body panels straight,without dents,as the car was on its first day of racing.i did in fact though modify the body with the correct fender cutouts,front end mods ect,scratch built roll cage exactly as it was in the real car,even with the trans cooler mounted behind me as in the real car...i used an ALPS dry ink printer and decal paper to make my own decals exactly as they were on the car in may of 1980.

i posted photos of the real car and of the model on a modelers website in 1998-99 and they tore it apart...one guy even told me that i shouldnt try to build a model of a real car if i dont have insight into the real item!!!,i reminded him that i not only drove the real thing,but myself and my "crew" built the real thing...and he called me a liar!!!

i never went back to that website again....

[Bjoern]

If I had a "punch someone in the face over the internet" machine, I would hold the highscore.
Then again, it's enough to ask me for a model feature or a paint or something equally ignorant of my so far completed work that's enough to tick me off.
And still one goes on and on and on and on...


Also, ever since "realism" and "eye candy" took over MSFS, the number of arseholes frequenting the various forums seems to have sprung up by a magnitude of ten...thousand. Not necessarily here, mind you, but definitely in other forums.



Stay strong, fellas. Do what you have to do and stick to the satisfactory mental image of your fist punching a fuzzily imagined face, should things get a bit rough.