Warhawk
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Thread: Warhawk

  1. #1

    Warhawk

    I originally built a P-40E and released it in January 2005.

    Since then, it has had a couple slight modifications such as improved exhausts.
    Some of the parts were re-used to make the P-40C aircraft.
    The idea of making a long tail version (P-40K, P-40M) is the first real "modification" to the basic design.
    Attached are some screenshots illustrating the differences.

    There is still something not quite right about the shape of the Tail Fin and I believe the panel lines need some additional attention, but it seems to fit together fairly well at this point.

    - Ivan.

  2. #2

    Design Choices

    Sometimes design choices for the original project (P-40E) cause problems when trying to modify it into a new project.

    In this case, the scale of the Fuselage was consistent across files but a little odd at 11.6 feet to 256 pixels.
    This makes aligning textures a bit difficult in certain circumstances. The lack of a camouflage pattern on this aircraft makes this not terribly important, but if I were to repaint with a pattern extending across different parts of the aircraft, precise work may be difficult.

    Another issue was that the textures were laid out VERY tight within the files so that for a 20 inch longer tail, there needed to be at least one more texture file because the extended parts would not fit onto the same files.
    There also wasn't room to texture any additional parts using the existing files.

    These days, I am a bit smarter and don't lay things out quite as tight because using an additional file may simplify the matching of parts pairs such as landing gear, guns, etc.
    The assembly sequence was also a touch strange at places, but I chose not to change things because the original sequence was working well enough.
    Many parts were reshaped from just aft of the Cockpit, but the parts count is identical to the original which I believe is rather amusing.

    The Curtiss Company designation for the P-40E and P-40K were the same; both were Hawk 87B's.
    Next comes the new markings.....

    - Ivan.

  3. #3

    Matching Shapes

    I created the P-40E from a set of drawings by William Wylam.
    These were drawings derived from Curtiss company specifications for the aircraft with dimensions stated.
    I had noticed when building the model that sometimes the stated dimensions could not actually line up, but the differences were not great and the result looked like a short tailed P-40.
    I had also noticed that my model differed a bit from photographs but wasn't quite sure where the differences were.

    Attached are two images derived from overlaying the wire frame from my model with a drawing and a photograph.
    There is of course the possibility that the photograph isn't lined up, but the differences are a bit more extreme than a slight misalignment would create.

    The interesting thing is that the mismatch does not appear in the Fin as I was expecting. It is mostly in the Canopy and Keel area.

    The big question now is whether or not I should continue trying to develop this model or not.
    The Wylam drawing is the only dimensional reference I have at this point and my model agrees pretty well with that.

    What do you all think of the mismatches?

    - Ivan.

  4. #4

    Variant is Correct

    42-10343 happens to be a P-40K-15-CU.

    - Ivan.

  5. #5
    Ivan,
    I do see the difference you are talking about, BUT I can not help looking at the shadows under the wings. If the shadows were lined up
    that may compensate for a lot of what we see. Do you think ?? I am just not so sure that you are that off of the mark.

    Dave
    http://www.TheFreeFlightSite.com
    "Laissez les bon temps rouler"

  6. #6
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    as always, the decision to change
    or live with the discrepancies is up to you.

    as my wife likes to say when i point out project deficiencies,
    nobody would notice, if you didn't say something.

    but, then again, it's your project.
    not hers.
    sometimes the magic works.
    sometimes it doesn't.

  7. #7

    Reference Drawings

    Hello Smilo, No Dice,

    To me, the shape of an aircraft model is very important. It isn't enough to get a general representation, at least not for me.
    It has to have "The Look". This one just doesn't quite look right at this point.

    I went back to check the drawings I was working from (by William Wylam). The drawing lengths add up about 4 inches short of the stated length of the aircraft. The greatest deviation from the stated measurements was around 1/2 inch at the rear of the keel fairing. So.... From the dimensions I have, it is "Correct".

    So now what?
    - Ivan.

  8. #8
    Ivan, I can see your point, but from one who can barely keep the things flying I would be very happy with it 'as-is'. BUT...knowing me as I do, if I were in your position and spent the hours you have in developing it as far as you have I would not be able to stop until complete satisfaction is achieved.

    Unfortunately, I do not have the ability to build anything at all so the notes you have produced are going over my head a lot better than the planes I fly!

    If I had not been privvy to this thread the A/C would have looked brilliant; and now you have shown me the tiny inaccuracies that exist I can honestly say to me it makes no difference....but I am not Ivan.

    In a small way that makes me glad as I do not have to worry.

    As the Irishman once said; 'I'm just grateful for small Murphys'.

    I would love to be in your position but glad I'm not!

    Best wishes,

    Graham.

  9. #9
    Thanks Arfyhun,

    Last night I had a bit of trouble sleeping and I found an aircraft diagram of the P-40N in the book America's Hundred Thousand. The odd thing abour this drawing is that it has a scale below the drawing showing distances from the aircraft datum line which happens to be about 1/3 of the way back on the spinner from the tip.

    I spent about an hour or so using a clear straight edge and measuring the locations of various aircraft pieces from the reference line. This morning, I took those measurements and compared them to the P-40K that I have been building.

    Surprise, surprise, there isn't an item that is more than about 1/2 in off on my model as compared to the drawing except for the rudder hinge line and I already knew about that.

    So now I can honestly say that I have not a clue as to where the problem is except that it does not match photographs....
    Still looks wrong but I have no idea where to fix things.

    - Ivan.

  10. #10
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    just a guess.
    is it possible that the photograph perspective is off?
    i have a hard time imagining that the photo view angles
    are as precise as a, say, side view drawing.

    it would seem to me, that a slight variance in the view angle
    would change the perceived part distance.

    especially for parts farthest from center,
    ie; tail parts would appear to be farther from center
    than they would be in a flat drawing.

    build the model to drawing specs...no small task,
    load it up, go into spot/chase view and pan around.
    how does the tail look when viewed from slightly forward/up and down?

    then there is the monitor resolution variations.
    but, that's another subject all together.
    sometimes the magic works.
    sometimes it doesn't.

  11. #11
    Thanks for the insight, Smilo.

    I pretty much have finished the visual model, but it just doesn't look quite right.
    The Chinese insignia will be replaced with standard USAAF stars of a style suitable for late 1942.
    The fuselage stars will displace the tactical number and there will be few additional markings.

    This is such a common aircraft that I am surprised that even the drawings don't agree with each other.
    Since I don't have a good drawing to work from, I can't really make reasonable adjustments.

    There were some problems with the Wylam drawings:
    The stated overall length was 31' 7".
    The sum of the lengths of all the parts was only 31' 3", so in order to use the dimensions, I had to arbitrarily add the extra 4 inches SOME PLACE on the aircraft. I did this by adding an inch here and there an eyeballing the result.

    Another issue is that the book "America's Hundred Thousand" specifies the K and N models as being 33.22 feet.
    The P-40N Erection and Maintenance Manual specifies the length as 33 feet 3.7 inch. Yet another source claims the length to be 33 feet 3.75 inch or 33 feet 4 inch.
    I will probably use the number from the E&M manual because I believe those tech manuals the most against the other sources.

    Still wondering which is right.

    - Ivan.

  12. #12
    Ivan, I can only say that when you come to your final decision the Hawk will look brilliant.

    Don't lose sleep, take a deep breath and 'amble along'. I'm sure that way all things will fall into place.

    Oftentimes, it's the tension inside which gets in the way. Easy for me to say, I know!

    Ask your son which looks better, a lot of times a fresh pair of eyes can see the wood for the trees.

    Good luck,

    Graham.

  13. #13
    Ditto, It will be one fine bird.

    Dave
    http://www.TheFreeFlightSite.com
    "Laissez les bon temps rouler"

  14. #14
    Over the last week or so, I decided to finally revisit the P-40 Long Tail.
    I started with a dimensional confirmation of the original Short Tail version of the P-40E and found that apparently I had misread Wylam's Drawing. The dimensions actually don't have a 4 inch discrepancy if it is interpreted correctly. I also found that my P-40E is a bit off in places but generally close enough to the drawing not to matter much (about 3/4 inch off at the worst and generally under 1/4 inch off or dead on).
    I also found that my copying of the panel lines around the Rudder and Fin area was quite poor.

    The Long Tail configuration that I am building as a model looks like either a late P-40K or P-40M. The E&M manual lists 33 ft 3.7 in, so that would make it 20.7 inches longer.
    In looking over a LOT of photographs, it finally occurred to me that I had handled the Fuselage Extension incorrectly:
    Yes, it is 20.7 inches longer, but there is also a vertical shift that isn't so precisely defined.
    Another VERY interesting thing is that the Rudder has the exact same visual appearance between the two versions!
    Most of the panel lines on the Fin also appear to match with that exception that there is a new panel at the root of the Fin which apparently extends it.

    Extending the Fin upwards made it look more proportional but also made it not fit into its original texture file. This little change cascaded through a couple texture files because now the Tail Cone also needed moved which affected the Landing Gear.... While updating textures, I found that the Rudder had an incorrect number of Ribs and didn't match the real aeroplane's hinge lines.
    Another major change was that the Razorback area behind the Cockpit apparently had a subtle bump which I also added. (It is now around 2 scale inches higher which changed all the contours in the Aft Fuselage. The wider and higher Aft Fuselage also affects the Quarter Windows, Framing and the cutout underneath. Without going into even more detail, the changes and fixes took 3-4 evenings....

    The changes are not entirely obvious and I am sure they still disagree with photographs, but they do seem to agree with the drawings and have "The Look" I was trying to get.

    - Ivan.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Hawk87B_LF.jpg   Hawk87B_RALow.jpg  

  15. #15
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    looks very good.
    nicely done.
    sometimes the magic works.
    sometimes it doesn't.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by smilo View Post
    looks very good.
    nicely done.
    Thanks Smilo, I didn't want to respond before I actually had completed something substantial on the project.

    The Tail got yet another redesign. It is entirely by eyeball at this point and a couple polygons were added to the leading edge of the fin. The textures are redone a bit to look more like the actual aircraft. The first SCASM pass has been done to the model and it should make future texturing easier. An interior view of the canopy framing for the virtual cockpit has been built but it hasn't been textured yet. The nice thing is that the canopy framing is identical between the E, K, and M models so it only needs to be done once for those aircraft. The frame still needs to be flipped inside out after disassembly to SCASM. Quite a lot of effort goes into the model that isn't even visible from an external screenshot.

    - Ivan.

  17. #17
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    as always, we look forward
    to seeing the fruits of your labor.
    sometimes the magic works.
    sometimes it doesn't.

  18. #18
    Thanks Smilo.

    Here's the process I am using:
    1. I copy all the pieces from the Canopy Frame Component (CFrame-something).

    2. I then narrow them down a bit (50% in this case) so that they will not block too much visibility from the cockpit (to be discussed later).
    At this point it is an untextured Component (IFrame) which I modify to remove bleeds and sparklies where the pieces don't quite meet up.

    3. Next it is textured to be Dark Green. One side is textured Red for better visibilty for the screenshot.
    When it is textured and changed to be a "Smooth" AF99 Component, it disappears from the Interior View.
    The Red is easily seen against the real canopy frame to show how the widths compare.

    4. Now HERE is the cool part: Next, I extract the SCASM code for the Component and run it through a little C program I wrote which reverses all the Polygons directions.
    The result is a "Component" which faces inward and isn't visible from outside. Editing the SCASM code by hand would take a couple hours with great potential for error. Using this conversion program takes about 2-3 seconds!

    The result is amusing to look at. The Exterior View screenshot shows the Canopy Frame looking like it is facing you 7 or 8 o'Clock.
    In Reality, it is facing 10 or 11 o'Clock along the same direction as the runway markings.

    ....
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IFrameExteriorView.jpg   IFrame.jpg   IFrameInteriorView.jpg  

  19. #19
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    i wish i could come up with
    a comment besides my standard,
    very nice or that's cool, but for now,
    it will have to do.

    thanks for the shots.
    sometimes the magic works.
    sometimes it doesn't.

  20. #20
    Hello Smilo,

    Actually I like your responses because I am sure that if you saw something that didn't look quite right, you would tell me. Hubbabubba also can be counted on for an honest critique.

    Here is what happens when the Internal Canopy Frame gets put into the rest of the model.
    There is a slight problem though because the Canopy Frame then chops off part of the Pilot's Shoulder. The P-40 has a very low Cockpit Wall as compared to many other aircraft. One pilot remarked that it felt like the glass came down to around your waist.
    The solution after leaving it overnight was simply to redraw the Pilot's Shoulder yet again.

    Since I took these screenshots, I increased the width of the front section of the windshield frame by 50% and it looks a bit better to me now. I also adjusted the display range of the Flaps and Flap Wells so that continue to display until fully retracted. I had to do a little guessing here and also to remove the entire model except for the Flap parts to see what was actually happening when all the parts opened and closed.

    Perhaps I am terribly out of practice, but flying this beast is a bit more difficult than I remembered. It also changes Directional Trim with Airspeed changes like the actual aircraft does though I didn't intentionally do this. Another goofy thing is that CFS doesn't have lockable Tail Wheels so there is lots of overcontrol at low taxiing speeds.

    - Ivan.

    - Ivan.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IFrameCombined.jpg   IFrameOuch.jpg   IFrameBandAid.jpg  

  21. #21

    Very Ambitious

    I have also been considering doing ALL of the P-40 versions from the P-40B/C all the way out to the P-40N. The Q also is a consideration, but it would require a substantial rebuild (which is what the real one was) and I am lazy.

    In order to do this, the textures need to be able to support long and short Fuselage variants, AND the monstrously ugly Fin Fillet on the mid series K. I also want the texture layouts to be as close to the same as possible between variants. I had originally arranged the textures VERY tight for the P-40E with almost no wasted space.
    When the increased length Tail Cone needed to be fitted in, the Fin could no longer fit onto the same texture file as the Tail Cone. This wasn't a big deal because I had no room to put the texture for the interior of the Canopy Frame for the Virtual Cockpit. Thus one more texture file was added. A couple things like landing gear pieces also needed moved around to fit.
    What I had not considered was that the extra length Fin Fillet on the earlier K series would need more room than I had originally planned. A bit more reworking and now I believe I can handle from the D model out through the N model using the same basic layout with some small component variations.

    The P-40K also had a minor trip through the Paint Shop and hopefully looks better. I could not find a definitive source for paint standards, so I used a bit of artistic license.

    - Ivan.
    P.S. My son calls this aeroplane "Rudolf" for fairly obvious reasons.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails P-40K_RFHigh.jpg  

  22. #22
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    ....and I am lazy.

    sorry, i don't buy it.
    you are far from lazy.
    maybe, a little over extended, but, not lazy.

    I have also been considering doing ALL of the P-40 versions from the P-40B/C all the way out to the P-40N. The Q also is a consideration, but it would require a substantial rebuild (which is what the real one was)

    this would be a major undertaking,
    but, when completed, an interesting package.
    i, for one, would like to see it happen.
    sometimes the magic works.
    sometimes it doesn't.

  23. #23

    Alaskan Visitor

    We had a visitor from Alaska visit our shop today. She claimed to be an artist and wanted to look over the P-40K. She spent a lot of time looking at the P-40 from different angles and drawing and making notes in her sketch pad.

    When we stepped out of the shop to analyse results of recent engine tests, she sneaked into our paint booth and tried her hand with our spray guns. By the time we came back into the shop, she was so far along that we decided to let her finish.

    We decided it wasn't worth repainting back to the original colours just for flight testing today, so here is the result. The paint wasn't even on long enough to dry when these shots were taken.

    We are still trying to decide whether to throw her in jail or hire her for future work.
    ;-)
    - Ivan.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Aleutian_LFLow.jpg   Aleutian_LA.jpg  

  24. #24
    Over the last few days, the AIR file of the P-40K gradually took shape. There are a few things about it that surprise me, but I believe that a lot of it is due to the conflicting information about the aircraft.

    Maximum Speed at 5000 feet
    Actual 320 mph
    Model 341 mph

    Maximum Speed at 15,000 feet
    Actual 362 mph
    Model 357 mph (Maximum Speed 363 mph @ 10,000 feet)

    Service Ceiling
    Actual 28,800 feet (Unknown climb rate. Was it 500 feet/min or 100 feet/min?)
    Model 29,900 feet (100 feet/min with 50% fuel and 100% ammunition)

    Initial Climb
    Actual 2600-2800 feet/min depending on source
    Model 2990 feet/min

    The general handling seems to be quite good. In watching Air Show performances on video, it appears to me that P-40 pilots actually are willing to do more with their aircraft than just low level passes and a few slow rolls. They move much more enthusiastically than your typical WW2 fighter.

    Smilo,
    A complete set of P-40 models is actually not that far away:
    The early P-40 through P-40C have been done.
    The P-40D,E, and early K without the fillet are done.
    Adding a Fin Fillet gets the mid production short tail K.
    The P-40K,M are my current project.
    The P-40N isn't that much of a departure from the K.
    The P-40F,L with Merlin engines are basically either E or K models with a revised cowl and intake.

    Problem is that I can see all the P-40s I have could use some improvements.

    - Ivan.

  25. #25

    P-40K Long Tail

    The paint schemes took a bit longer than I thought they would.
    The Disney Flying Tiger image didn't quite turn out as well as I had hoped, but the fuselage seemed a bit bare without it.
    I am not sure which set of textures I like better.

    I had always thought of these mid production P-40s as rather drab, Sad Sack kind of aeroplanes. In doing a little basic research to work on this project, I found that these P-40Ks were probably the hottest version of the aircraft at low altitudes. The Allison engine tolerated boost pressure well above what the manual specified. It became bad enough in practice that the limits in the manuals were adjusted higher (after GM / Allison Division's agreement) though not as high as some pilots were already using.
    The Merlin installations had much better altitude performance but were not even close in power at low altitudes. Later Allison engines also reduced maximum manifold pressures because their higher geared superchargers would not stand up to as much boost down low.

    I still believe this project could use some improvement but is pretty much releasable as it stands.

    - Ivan.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Hawk87BT_LFHigh.jpg   Hawk87BA_LFHigh.jpg  

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