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Thread: Time for an unveiling...

  1. #31
    SOH Librarian Rami's Avatar
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    Question A question for our British contingent...

    Good evening,

    Hi. Forgive me for being the ignorant American, but I have never quite understood something about the Battle of Britain. Where does the "start" date of 10 July come from? It is clear, for example, that Stukas were raiding Portland and convoys in the Channel on 4 July, and there are accounts such as this...

    http://suite101.com/article/spitfire...ations-a341617

    http://spitfiresite.com/2010/06/batt...the-blitz.html

    http://spitfiresite.com/2010/07/batt...arted-yet.html

    ...which I am including in my "Kampfgeschwader" campaign. This indicates that there was significant combat over England as early as 18/19 June, as well as another raid on 26/27 June.

    So again, how was the date decided? If it was decided based on the ability of the RAF to successfully intercept, (it is my understanding they failed to intercept the Portland raiders, due to their slow response) then the action of 18/19 June calls that into question, does it not?

    I'm not trying to start a fight here, I simply can't understand this.
    "Rami"

    "Do you think the language in the Second Amendment is clear enough? You know, about the right to bear arms?"

    "Of course it's clear. Every American has the right to hang a pair of bear arms on their wall. How can that possibly be misconstrued?"



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  2. #32
    SOH Staff Tako_Kichi's Avatar
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    Don't worry about being confused Rami as it can get confusing for a Brit (like me) too. To some extent the date may be an arbitrary one due to a number of significant facts.

    In the early part of the war Hitler's forces and particularly the Luftwaffe were content to attack British shipping in the Channel without taking on targets on the mainland except for a few raids on radar stations (although at the time the Germans did not know their true function and assumed they were part of a homing beacon system for British bombers) and a few raids on major manufacturing centres.

    That all changed when Hitler decided to approve the plan for the invasion of England (code named 'Operation Sealion') on July 16th, 1940 and then the targets became RAF fighter airfields in Southern England as it was vital that the RAF (especially the fighter squadrons) were taken out of the war if the plan was to succeed.

    The term 'Battle of Britain' was coined by Winston Churchill in his famous 'This was their finest hour' speech on the 18th of June, 1940 (roughly a month before the dates usually quoted for the start of the battle) when he said "The Battle of France is over. I expect that the Battle of Britain is about to begin."

    So you can see that events happened over a period of several weeks so how anyone can come up with a decisive date is open to debate.
    Larry
    SOH RTWR Team Member 09-13



  3. #33
    SOH-CM-2013 Bruce Thompson's Avatar
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    As I understand it and Grandad always said, the battle started on July 10th 1940 when the Luftwaffe attempted to gain control of the Straits of Dover.

  4. #34
    Proud Junior Member Sopwith Chameleon's Avatar
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    Hugh Dowding (CinC) Fighter Command always claimed the Battle started on May 10th 1940 when the Germans invaded the Low Countries .........

  5. #35
    SOH Staff simonu's Avatar
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    From the writing of John W R Taylor,

    On the night of the 5-6 June. 30 bombers crossed the east coast and attacked airfields and other targets. Thats when the "softening up" started.
    There is doubt as to the date of Adlerangriff day. Deferred from the 10 to 12 August. Germans claim main assult on the 13th.

    10th and 11th were devoted to attacks on channel convoys and the ports of Dover and Portland.
    The Luftwaffe lost 63 aircraft. The RAF lost 52.
    Primary targets on the 12th were airfields and radar stations.
    By the evening of the 12 Manston was out of action. Lympne and Hawkinge had taken a battering but could still operate, pilots using narrow grass strips between the craters to land and take off. Five radar stations were out of action.
    The germans lost 36 aircraft, against 22 defending fighters. All the raid that day were intercepted.
    The 13th is recorded as different from most days that summer in that it was cloudy. Should have helped the Germans especially since the radar defences had been weakend.
    485 bomber sorties and 1000 fighter sorties were flown against Southhampton, Portland and airfields in Kent and Hampshire.
    The RAF improved their score 45 kills against 13 fighters lost.

  6. #36
    SOH Librarian Rami's Avatar
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    Icon22 Finding more evidence...

    Good morning,

    More evidence from my research indicates a staffel of KG 2 struck Hull / Middlesborough on 1 July, and 34 Dorniers struck Kenley on 3 July.
    "Rami"

    "Do you think the language in the Second Amendment is clear enough? You know, about the right to bear arms?"

    "Of course it's clear. Every American has the right to hang a pair of bear arms on their wall. How can that possibly be misconstrued?"



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  7. #37
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    Battle of Britian started on the 10TH July when Germany invaded Belgium. Its a date that is reconised that Britian could no longer stay out of the war and people knew that Britian would soon be Hitlers next target.

    FROM GOOGLE.

    Belgium
    remained strictly neutral, but was invaded by the Germans for a second time (on May 10, 1940). The Germans struck at both the Netherlands and ...

  8. #38
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    Although Briton was at war, alot of people called it the war the Phoney war.

    The Phoney War was a phase early in World War II that was marked by a lack of major military operations by the Western Allies against the German Reich. The phase was in the months following Britain and France's declaration of war on Germany (shortly after the German invasion of Poland) in September 1939 and preceding the Battle of France in May 1940. War was declared by each side, but no Western power had committed to launching a significant land offensive, notwithstanding the terms of the Anglo-Polish military alliance and the Franco-Polish military alliance, which obliged the United Kingdom and France to assist Poland.

    10/5/1940: Germany invades Belgium and Holland 10/5/1940: British prime minister Neville Chamberlain resigns and is replaced by Winston Churchill ...

    So I think the 10 of May 1940 is the start of the Battle of Britian because Churchill became prime minister.

    Like with a lot of wars it takes more than a few little wars to become substantial world war.
    When did ww2 start. It was not a world war as such, it was a European war until pearl harbour, then churchill got his wish and thank god he did and America joined and saved our way of life.

    10 May 2006
    The UK is about to pay off the last of its World War II loans from the US. But it hasn't always been so fastidious.
    On 31 December, the UK will make a payment of about $83m (£45.5m) to the US and so discharge the last of its loans from World War II from its transatlantic ally.

    RJ

  9. #39
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    From Eagles High published 1990 for the 50th aniversary

    In the foreword by ACM Sir Christopher Foxley-Norris (Chairman Battle of Britain Fighter Assocation)

    "...during the official period of the Battle, 10 July - 31 October, 1940 (this timescale itself seems somewhat questionable and arbitrarily selected - there was plenty of hard fighting before 10 July and after 31 October)."

    Seemingly it was a dates chosen after the event, perhaps during which the fighting was considered at its most intense. For me, as one who was around then as a child, it was the summer - autumn (fall) of 1940

    peter

  10. #40
    SOH Librarian Rami's Avatar
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    Icon22 Reply...

    Peter,

    Additional research has proven this to be correct, thank you!
    "Rami"

    "Do you think the language in the Second Amendment is clear enough? You know, about the right to bear arms?"

    "Of course it's clear. Every American has the right to hang a pair of bear arms on their wall. How can that possibly be misconstrued?"



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  11. #41
    SOH Librarian Rami's Avatar
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    Icon22 Reply...

    Good evening,

    I wanted to pass along that I settled on three raids which occurred prior to 10 July. Two of these are based on the book "Luftwaffe Fighters and Bombers over Great Britain" by Chris Goss, and "Battle of Britain" by James Holland. I created these missions, and I am using these books to create the other fourteen missions, so that I do not rehash what has been done by the other campaigns for this package.

    One of these missions include making oil tanks and port facilities at Hull, along the Humber Estuary, which was of course made into GSL. At the spit of land at the end of the Estuary facing the North Sea, I placed a lighthouse, as well as what amounts to a makeshift landing strip, basically created to simulate a road stretching along the spit of land until it reached the main coast. There is also a lighthouse at Flamborough Head.

    Here are the mission texts, to give you a preview...

    "title_string"=Operation Sealion - Battle of Britain prelude
    "summary_string"=Achtung, Luftflotte pilots! Tonight, we will launch our first large-scale assault on England, attacking oil storage tanks and docks in the Thames Estuary. Because of the exceptionally bright full moon, you should have no problems with navigation, so strike your targets hard. Viel Glück!
    "objective_string"=Before the Battle of France was over, 70 Heinkels of Kampfgeschwader 4 left France to attack port facilities in the Thames Estuary and other targets in Wales. The raid was intercepted by Blenheims, Spitfires, & Hurricanes due to the extraordinarily bright moonlight; it caused the Heinkel bombers to be spotted and provided silhouettes for Royal Air Force fighters. In the ensuing skirmish, "Sailor" Malan brought down two Heinkels.
    "intelligence_string"=After takeoff, you'll fly a north-northwest course over France, come ashore near Dungeness, & cross over Kent to reach the Estuary. This will allow you to skirt the aerodromes at Manston and Hawkinge. Once you near Carney Island & Thameshaven, drop your bombs on the oil storage facilities and docks.
    "player_aircraft_name_string"=Heinkel He-111h-6
    "airfield_string"=France - Beauvais

    "title_string"=Operation Sealion - Heinkels over the Humber
    "summary_string"=Achtung, kameraden! Today, we'll test the enemy's defenses in the East Midlands. The objectives are to strike the oil tanks and port facilities at Hull, and try to identify any planes that you see. We do not believe that the Royal Air Force will use their valuable Spitfires this far north, so you should be able to avoid the enemy with height. Viel Glück!
    "objective_string"=1 July, 1940 saw Heinkels depart Schiphol to hit a large chemical factory at Middlesborough, with a secondary objective being the oil tanks & the port facilities at Hull. Three German staffel took part in the raid, but other information is unclear about how many He-111s were actually involved. What is known is one Heinkel, flown by Friedrich-Wilhelm Koch, struck Hull, was promptly intercepted by six Spitfires, and had to ditch in the Humber Estuary. This mission is an amalgam of his account and the later raids on Hull, known as the "Hull Blitz."
    "intelligence_string"=After departing Waalhaven, you'll fly a northwest course to reach the English coastline. If you can navigate properly, you should reach the coast just below Flamborough Head, where you will then turn south for Hull. Your targets are the port facilities and the oil tanks. If you're intercepted, try to use the cloud cover to shield you.
    "player_aircraft_name_string"=Heinkel He-111h-6
    "airfield_string"=Holland - Waalhaven (Rotterdam)

    "title_string"=Operation Sealion - "Flying Pencils" over Kenley
    "summary_string"=Achtung, Luftflotte pilots! This afternoon, we will attack the RAF airfield at Kenley. Today's attempt is a "probing" raid, we want to see how the enemy will respond to us. Your effort will be covered by Messerschmitts from Gunies aerodrome. Hopefully, our attack will damage their aircraft bunkers and hangars, and our Messerschmitts can destroy some enemy fighters!
    "objective_string"=3 July, 1940 saw 34 Dorniers hit the RAF fighter aerodrome of Kenley. The bombers were based at Laon, and were from 8/KG 77. The German bomber unit was equipped with Do-17s at the beginning of the Battle of Britain, but shifted to Ju-88s within a few weeks of the start of the battle. The attack did little damage, & the bombers were intercepted by Hurricanes of 32 Squadron.
    "intelligence_string"=After departing Laon, your course should take you south of Cape Gris-Nez, where Bf-109 escors will rendezvous with you. They'll then remain with you over England, and keep any British fighters off of your tail. Your target is Kenley aerodrome; try to focus on the aircraft hangars and other buildings.
    "player_aircraft_name_string"=Dornier Do-17z-2
    "airfield_string"=France - Laon
    "Rami"

    "Do you think the language in the Second Amendment is clear enough? You know, about the right to bear arms?"

    "Of course it's clear. Every American has the right to hang a pair of bear arms on their wall. How can that possibly be misconstrued?"



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  12. #42
    SOH-CM-2013 Dick's Avatar
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    Start of the Battle of Britain

    Rami,

    You are doing a great job there. As for the starting date of the Battle of Britain, as others have said, it is open to debate. The best book and the most detailed I have read on the conflict, - 'Battle over Britain' by Francis K. Mason, settles on a convenient start date of 1st July 1940. The Germans had begun their invasion of the Channel Islands the day before and this was the first time that British territory had been directly threatened by the enemy. Before the 10th July Fighter Command had intercepted several raids, each of more than 50 aircraft. The official award of the 'Battle of Britain Clasp' to pilots taking part in battles from 10th July onwards is therefore a little unfair on those previously engaging the enemy.

    However, on a similar theme, this Thursday in the U.K. there is a new memorial to be unveiled to the crews of Bomber Command. Since the war they have received little official recognition due largely to adverse publicity following the Dresden raids. Over 55,000 British, Commonwealth and allied airman lost their lives in the night skies over Germany in the years following the Battle of Britain and it is only right that they are remembered for the sacrifices that they made.

  13. #43
    SOH Librarian Rami's Avatar
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    Icon22 Reply...

    Dick,

    Thank you. I'm hoping to have this definitive release ready by 10 July.
    "Rami"

    "Do you think the language in the Second Amendment is clear enough? You know, about the right to bear arms?"

    "Of course it's clear. Every American has the right to hang a pair of bear arms on their wall. How can that possibly be misconstrued?"



    My campaign site: http://www.box.net/shared/0k1e1rz29h
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  14. #44
    SOH Librarian Rami's Avatar
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    Icon22 Important BoB / Sealion scenery notice...

    Good evening,

    You may notice that the JHS_England package by Achim has been moved back into the "what's new" section, along with my GSL ports. The reason for this is that with the Sealion project nearing completion, it will require two airfields by Achim that were not included in the original package; Debden and North Weald.

    These bases will be used in the Sealion campaigns, so you might as well get a jump on making sure they are all installed and ready. I also put up my GSL ports again; there are new ports at Hull, Liverpool, the Thames Estuary, and an oil refinery at Rochester. I also revised and enhanced the Port of Bristol, and added the Port of Brest, France.

    This will allow you to get a lot of the installation process out of the way before the campaign comes out!
    "Rami"

    "Do you think the language in the Second Amendment is clear enough? You know, about the right to bear arms?"

    "Of course it's clear. Every American has the right to hang a pair of bear arms on their wall. How can that possibly be misconstrued?"



    My campaign site: http://www.box.net/shared/0k1e1rz29h
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  15. #45
    SOH Librarian Rami's Avatar
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    Icon22 Reply...

    Good afternoon,

    I just wanted to pass along a progress update...I have competed five of the six campaigns; 94 out of 108 missions are completed, all the missions that remain are the fourteen missions of the "Kampfgeschwader" campaign.
    "Rami"

    "Do you think the language in the Second Amendment is clear enough? You know, about the right to bear arms?"

    "Of course it's clear. Every American has the right to hang a pair of bear arms on their wall. How can that possibly be misconstrued?"



    My campaign site: http://www.box.net/shared/0k1e1rz29h
    My missions site: http://www.box.net/shared/ueh4kazk3v
    My scenery site: http://www.box.net/shared/knb1l0ztobhs2esb14rb

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