Engaging in some pointless What-Iffery

[Rallymodeller]

Wings of Power 190 Dora (specifically D11)



Always thought some of the German fighters at the end of the war were too good to let die, so RCAF Fw-190D-11 c. 1953, RCAF 420 "City of London" squadron. Just gotta fix the starboard wingtip, add a red rudder (for visual purposes) and fix the bottom of the rad cowling. Probably gonna make the fuse codes and roundel smaller as well. Looks good in aluminum lacquer...

[AndyG43]

What If.... is never pointless and always fun! :-) That is a nice scheme you have there.

Actually, I believe the Russians used some 190D's for a short while after the war; the Czechs, of course, actually produced some Me 262s; and the French impressed quite a few ex-Japanese aircraft and used them in Indochina for a good few years.

[SteveB]

What If.... is never pointless and always fun! :-) That is a nice scheme you have there.

Actually, I believe the Russians used some 190D's for a short while after the war; the Czechs, of course, actually produced some Me 262s; and the French impressed quite a few ex-Japanese aircraft and used them in Indochina for a good few years.

At the End of the war in Europe, France used a number of German types for a while, even continued too build a couple of types.

Steve

[Matt Wynn]

nice work! kinda makes me want to do some WhIFs

190D is an odd bird.... looks wrong with that long nose... less the 'Butcher-Bird' and more 'Ameisenbär'.... never had an experience with an Ant-Eater but they seem docile enough

[Sunny9850]

And let's not forget the israeli air force started life with, I believe, Romanian copies of the Bf-109

Stefan

[AndyG43]

At the End of the war in Europe, France used a number of German types for a while, even continued too build a couple of types.

Steve

Yep. A good number of the prserved/airworthy Storchs are actually Morane Saulnier Criquets, and at least one preserved Fw 190 is really a NC900.

And let's not forget the israeli air force started life with, I believe, Romanian copies of the Bf-109

Stefan

Czechoslovakian again, Avia, the same company the produced a small number of Me 262s. Some of the 109s were, of course, completed with different engines, as Avia didn't have any of the correct Daimler Benz - the resulting aircraft was not, it is fair to say, a standout classic! That is the version (the Avia S199) which was supplied to the Israelis.

[Sunny9850]

S199, that's the bird I was thinking off. And yes it was indeed Avia Chechoslovakia of course...my bad.

Stefan

[SSI01]

I've seen conflicting statements about that airplane (S199), many of the Israeli pilots who flew it said its nickname of "Mule" was well-earned, it reportedly had vicious torque - someone else who operated it (probably the Czechs) said they had no problems handling it. I believe it had a Jumo engine like the one in the -190D-9, but in a 109's airframe. Reckon the light weight of the 109 plus the narrow undercart would make for an adventuresome takeoff run, and the same with landing.

[Sunny9850]

Regardless of the engine, it is a well known fact that the 109 required soft hands during the initial part of the takeoff run. The Finnish air force had dismal losses of aircraft and pilots, because they simply failed to adhere to the Luftwaffe procedures for that phase of flight. I somewhat doubt that the IAF pilots would have received any first hand training like that offered to the Finns.

On the other hand ... a full power, fine pitch go around in a P51 Mustang is very likely to end up with the aircraft on it's back, just to the left of the runway.
My A&P who owned and flew a P51D said that once airspeed decayed below a certain point and you were 200ft off the deck you were simply committed to land...and thanks to a wider track on the main gear take your chances with a bounce rather than try to save it with power.
His brother failed to do so and the left wing tip slapped the runway, before he chopped the throttle. And these guys have flown a lot of stuff in their day.

Late last year at KCMA a pilot doing his first solo in a Mustang, after many hours of dual that apparently had gone well, did just that and perished along with the aircraft.

Stefan

[alastairmonk]

Hi,

Nice idea ! Perhaps if the Dora had been continued to be flown it may have been the more advanced D-13 variant or even the Ta-152.

As a certified "Dora nut" I have to beg to differ with Matt and actually prefer the long-nose version !

Alastair

[Rallymodeller]

Apparently the Me-209A had the landing thing worked out, what with the revised tail, wider-track landing gear and so forth (even with the torquemonster Jumo engine).

I was thinking about doing a Ta-152. Might play around with the 190 paintkit to see if it'll fit the 152 that came with the WoP Dora set. Otherwise I chose the -11 variant 'cause of the extra guns in the wings.

As regards other Axis aircraft that should have been given another chance, I think the Do-335 should rate right up there. Everything I've read by the Allied test pilots who flew it after the war said they were pretty much stunned by how good it was, even in spite of the rough finishing of the early planes they got to fly (built in emergency conditions and all that). But I guess the writing was on the wall by then, even for a light tactical bomber/multi-role fighter like the Pfiel. The inverted-vee DB engines were widely considered more than equal to the Merlin-Griffon family, with the -603s being dead-nuts reliable. But I guess I can see the logic of the Allies: they already had aircraft almost as good in production, and why switch to a new type?

When I was still active on the What-If Modelers' forum, we worked out an alternate history idea wherein Russia decides right before the Yalta conference that they are going to "eliminate the German threat once and for all" and state to Churchill and Roosevelt (in no uncertain terms) that they are planning on taking all of Germany and Austria/ Stalin basically dared the Western allies to do something about it.

Upshot is: The Allies, with the NSDAP and SS taken care of and really short on continental manpower, have to get the remnants of the Luftwaffe and Wehrmacht back into shape as soon as possible to stave off an imminent invasion from the East. One of the things they do is help get production rolling again at places like Oberpfaffenhofen and the French factories, as well as passing Allied aircraft to Germany (picture Mustangs and Spitfires with Balkan crosses). I still toy around with that thought playground once in a while....

[AndyG43]

Upshot is: The Allies, with the NSDAP and SS taken care of and really short on continental manpower, have to get the remnants of the Luftwaffe and Wehrmacht back into shape as soon as possible to stave off an imminent invasion from the East. One of the things they do is help get production rolling again at places like Oberpfaffenhofen and the French factories, as well as passing Allied aircraft to Germany (picture Mustangs and Spitfires with Balkan crosses). I still toy around with that thought playground once in a while....

I've got the outline for a novel based on a similar rationale to that saved on my PC!! Spooky!

[thunder100]

Regardless of the engine, it is a well known fact that the 109 required soft hands during the initial part of the takeoff run. The Finnish air force had dismal losses of aircraft and pilots, because they simply failed to adhere to the Luftwaffe procedures for that phase of flight. I somewhat doubt that the IAF pilots would have received any first hand training like that offered to the Finns.

On the other hand ... a full power, fine pitch go around in a P51 Mustang is very likely to end up with the aircraft on it's back, just to the left of the runway.
My A&P who owned and flew a P51D said that once airspeed decayed below a certain point and you were 200ft off the deck you were simply committed to land...and thanks to a wider track on the main gear take your chances with a bounce rather than try to save it with power.
His brother failed to do so and the left wing tip slapped the runway, before he chopped the throttle. And these guys have flown a lot of stuff in their day.

Late last year at KCMA a pilot doing his first solo in a Mustang, after many hours of dual that apparently had gone well, did just that and perished along with the aircraft.

Stefan

My late friend*,beeing fighter pilot instructor(as well as Bombers),during is POW in Czech,flew the Israelian Avia's in and instructed the first pilots(Airfield Plana&olomuc).He always said that they were the worst ever planes to land and take off,and due to the Jumo(He-111) Torque and prop,if you hammered the throttle down,the S-199 rolled instantly 120 degree!!

As Stefan says also a P-51 is no joke once you have a "merry go round" but that S-199 were really evil

Now with that Israeli pilots shot down Spitfires !!!!

Roland

*Died last march in his 94th year,Legion Condor all the way through WW2.instructor of Roumanian AF,and finally POW

[Ferry_vO]

The big problem with the S199 was that the engine and prop rotated in the opposite direction! The original Bf-109 was built with the tail slightly at an angle to counter-act the torque, but if you mount an engine that rotates the other way the tail is actually enhancing the torque effects!

[Sunny9850]

That is an amazing oversight, if this is true. But I think would affect the airplane during high power flight much more than in takeoff and landing where effectiveness of the rudder is decreased anyways.
It is basically a fixed trim position for the rudder, not having that simply would mean you crank in more trim manually.
The rather small surface area of the rudder makes me think that until sufficient speed is reached the pilot would need to be quick with his feet anyways.

Stefan