AI weights

[vonOben]

**BUMP**

Does anyone know?

Cheers

vonOben

[ndicki]

I've been thinking some more about this and a few more questions came up:

* What is de benefit using pylons instead of increasing the empty_weight in the AI cfg-files - which is the way it has been done in a "Empty weight" mod for OFF?

* If you use the pylon idea how does that effect your squadron AI's in a campaign? Do they get pylons but you don't?

Cheers

vonOben

I have no idea what the fake pylon is actually included in as a direct-install package. If it was included with MAW, then it'll be included with ETO since as far as I can tell all the MAW files were simply taken over by ETO in any case. As for example the engine sounds, weapons, etc.

No idea if there is any benefit to using one system rather than the other. I simply use the one I know better. The pylon is invisible and cannot be dropped.

It is up to you/the aircraft developer to decide whether or not to apply this system to your aircraft - some may not need it, such as the night fighters you mentioned. But when a Bf110 can outfly a single-seater for example, there is clearly a problem. Do bear in mind that some of the aircraft used as night fighters, especially by the Germans, were not exactly models of high-performance...

It doesn't affect your squadron's AIs at all, because your squadron will be flying the aircraft you fly, regardless. That means that your squadron will have to fly the player version. That cannot be helped as the game engine does this automatically. It will however, if used correctly, ensure that all the other AI aircraft have the added weight of the crew and fuel, etc.

[vonOben]

Thanks ndick, much appreciated info!

I did as KellyB wrote "compared the standard and ai versions of your Bf109G-6 Yellow 6" to check how you did it and started by downloading DL_Bf109g-6_JG101.zip.

From DL_109g6_101.xdp

<Loadouts>
<Loadout Name="Clean"/>
<Loadout Name="(1)300l Drop Tank">
<Hardpoint ID="0" PylonType="dr_109g6_pylon" PayloadType="AvHistory_gr_109_tank_300L" Quantity="1"/>
</Loadout>
</Loadouts>

From AI_109g6_101.xdp

<Loadouts>
<Loadout Name="Clean">
<Hardpoint ID="0" PylonType="750_pylon_null" PayloadType=""/>
</Loadout>
<Loadout Name="(1)300l Drop Tank" MissionType="Escort,CAP,Intercept,Sweep,Nothing,Bo mber_Intercept">
<Hardpoint ID="0" PylonType="dr_109g6_pylon_750" PayloadType="AvHistory_gr_109_tank_300L" Quantity="1"/>
</Loadout>
</Loadouts>

The difference is this row:

<Hardpoint ID="0" PylonType="750_pylon_null" PayloadType=""/>

But where is the weight coming from???

Cheers

vonOben

[ndicki]

Look in your pylons folder and find the xdp file for the pylon in question. Open it up, and you'll see!

Category="weapon" Country="neutral" Mass="750"></General>

[vonOben]

Hi ndicki

Yes I thought it would be something like that, but I searched my ETO folder for 750_pylon_null but found nothing.
It was not included in the zip either, so where can I find this file?

Cheers

vonOben

[vonOben]

Hi again ndicki

How do you calculate the appropriate weight for each plane type?

Cheers

vonOben

[KellyB]

von Oben: As I understand it, they are native to MAW's pylons and can be ported over to ETO's pylon folder.

I did notice that there are 4 separate null pylons, each with a different weight (mass). None of them in MAW has an Md3 file, while there is one in ETO. I don't know what to make of that since I'm not sure what would be in the Md3 file for a null pylon.

Later, I'll remove it from my install and see if it makes a difference.
What would be better is to have Ndicki or someone else who actually knows about it to tell us howse come?

[ndicki]

They should all have m3d files. If they don't, they'll lock you up just as any missing pylon will lock you up. Don't ask if they were released with this or that, because as I was on the development team of MAW and collected all sorts of odds and ends, and refuse to cooperate with ETO for a number of reasons, I have no idea what a stock install of either might contain. If you have the one m3d, just copy it and change the names until you have as many as you need.

Don't forget that for aircraft with a payload - drop tank, bombs, etc - you don't need a dummy pylon. You can use a real one. Check how I did this for the 109 series. If the loads are wing-mounted, you will need to divide the added weight equally between each wing. I used this system for the Fairey Battle (though may not have released it) and now the AI version flies like a house-brick as it ought to, not like a Spitfire!

To some extent, determining the weight to add is guesswork - you need to cumulate the weight of the crew and their equipment, the fuel allowing for depletion during the flight to the area of operations, and ammunition. In practice, there's a certain amount of trial and error to see, quite simply, what the best compromise is between the AI's "rocket mode" and reasonable laden performance. As you can't fly it yourself to test, it's not as scientific as the development of the flyable flight dynamics. If you do try to fly the AIs, the game engine will add the fuel, etc, anyway, so you'll be carrying it twice...

[vonOben]

Hi

Thanks for that info KellyB and ndicki!

So I need to install MAW to get that pylon, the readme did not mention that.
It's not included in any other of your aircraft zip files by any chance?

Cheers

vonOben

[ndicki]

Hi

Thanks for that info KellyB and ndicki!

So I need to install MAW to get that pylon, the readme did not mention that.
It's not included in any other of your aircraft zip files by any chance?

Cheers

vonOben

Don't ask if they were released with this or that, because ... I have no idea what a stock install of either might contain. If you have the one m3d, just copy it and change the names until you have as many as you need.

You don't need to install MAW to get it - you very possibly won't get it from MAW. No idea, as I stated above. But I would encourage you to install MAW if you haven't already, because it is the single most important add-on ever made for WW2 CFS3, and remains a model of how to get it right.

The pylon is included with those DL/DR2 Bf109s we've included it with. I have no idea any longer which are the 'base' models and include all the bits and pieces, and which are 'second-line' ones. But the dummy pylon m3d is the same model throughout, although may be found with different names and different weights. If you have the DL/DR2 Bf109s installed, then you have every piece of the puzzle.

[vonOben]

Hi

I found the 750_pylon_null.xdp/m3d in DR2_Bf109g-6_Y9.zip!

"Don't forget that for aircraft with a payload - drop tank, bombs, etc - you don't need a dummy pylon. You can use a real one. Check how I did this for the 109 series."

What's the benefit in not using a dummy pylon in this case?

Cheers

vonOben

[ndicki]

The number of hardpoints an aircraft has is determined in gmax, and you can't modify them once the aircraft model has been exported. That means that you need in some cases to be economical, because if you use a hardpoint for a dummy weight, you can't use it to carry munitions or drop-tanks. In order to get around that, you make an AI-specific version of an existing functioning pylon that is carried as near as possible to the 0,0 line of the aircraft, and add weight to that. You can still add the normal weapons load as a result. This is what I've done for the AI Bf109s which carry a weapons load as standard. For example, the 300 litre drop tank is carried on this pylon in the AI version - dr_109g6_pylon_750. It functions both as a normal load-carrying pylon to carry the drop tank, and as added AI weight. As the 109 model has only three hardpoints - one under each wing, and one ventral - you have to be careful about what you do with them.

[vonOben]

OK, that makes sense!
There is always a reason.....

It’s getting a bit clearer now how this work, but how can you check where the different hardpoints are placed on an existing aircraft?

Cheers

vonOben

[ndicki]

You can't. So you look at your xdp file, check the loadouts, and see what goes where. For example, it's pretty obvious that the wing gondolas will go on hardpoints on the wings, or if you have only one bomb, that'll be on the centreline... Otherwise, load it up, go flying, and work it out from outside viewing.

[hairyspin]

The usual convention is for hardpoint 0 to be on the ventral position and the others (1,2 etc) to be on the wings. And I'll second Nigel's recommendation for MAW.