A Lockheed "Rounder"

***Matt Wynn*** · June 22nd, 2012, 17:29

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airmen of a B-17 belonging to the Mighty 8th, commonest head-dress visible, from your 'crush cap' to the standard cap

this is how i'd imagine a Harpoon crew would look for their 'crew photo'

**Milton Shupe** · June 22nd, 2012, 17:54

Great input! Thanks guys.

***Matt Wynn*** · June 22nd, 2012, 21:40

well there's the engine panel lines on... and the starboard nacelle shaded... time to get the rivet lines on

***stansdds*** · June 23rd, 2012, 08:12

Can I chime in here regarding flight uniforms?

Aircrew uniforms in WW II were dependent upon nation, branch of service and theater of operations. The British had their own gear and USAAF crews in Europe often used British gear, especially when it came to high altitude operations. The British had flight gear that was better suited for the cold air over Europe, at least until the electrically heated suites became available. In the Pacific, operations were generally carried out at lower altitudes and it was hot and humid. Most crews in the Pacific, both USAAF and USN/USMC, wore baseball caps and cotton uniforms. Even B-29 crews operating at higher altitudes over Japan generally wore baseball caps as the B-29 was pressurized and heated. In Europe the USAAF was the predominant branch of service and it was more common for enlisted crewmen to wear baseball caps, fleece lined leather caps or fleece lined leather fighter pilot helmets and commissioned officers would wear the "crusher" cap.

**Milton Shupe** · June 23rd, 2012, 08:46

Thank you for that input.

The whole point of the questions was, what hats do I need to put on the pilot and co-pilot. If you all can help me with that, I will try to do it. The result will be the only option regardless of theatre or season.

Right now I have this (see attached) thanks to Jan Visser.

***huub vink*** · June 23rd, 2012, 10:11

I like them Milton, especially the Ray-Ban pilot glasses. I guess after the war pilots from most nations wore similar head wear. Perhaps the one with the cap could be replaced by a triangular thingy (don't know what you call it, but I can tell you here in public how we used to cal them

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When I was in the Air Force (30+ years ago) the transport pilots from 334 sqn still had all kinds of head gear and nobody bothered.

Matt great work ! I'm really amazed to see the progress you make a just a few days !

Cheers,
Huub

**fliger747** · June 23rd, 2012, 10:37

I am not aware of the Navy pilots ever wearing their visored officers hats in an airplane they were crew on. This was primaraly a Naval patrol aircraft. Going with the baseball caps or the folders and one would be pretty close, and the Mae Wests....

Great project! BTW spot welding was used on a lot of cowlings as opposed to rivets, which is what my mom did for B-24's and B-17's during WWII.

T

***vonernsk*** · June 23rd, 2012, 10:51

Milton,

What you have now looks just fiiiiine! Really impressed with the speed that you crank these a/c out and to such a high standard. The Harpoon certainly continues your run of outstanding American light bombers and patrol a/c. I love the power and sheer in your face agressiveness of the Beech Grizzly.

Really satisfying to do bumps and circuits in as well.

Thanks a bunch for your committment to our hobby.

Mal

***Willy*** · June 23rd, 2012, 11:05

Originally Posted by fliger747

I am not aware of the Navy pilots ever wearing their visored officers hats in an airplane they were crew on. This was primaraly a Naval patrol aircraft. Going with the baseball caps or the folders and one would be pretty close, and the Mae Wests....

Great project! BTW spot welding was used on a lot of cowlings as opposed to rivets, which is what my mom did for B-24's and B-17's during WWII.

T

I'm with Fliger on this. The "crush" hats are called combination hats in the Navy and I've never seen a pic of anyone on a Navy flight crew wearing them. In my 20 years of Naval service, those hats were mainly worn with dress uniforms, blues, whites and dress khaki. That was mainly a Army Air Force thing.

I have seen them worn with working uniforms shipboard, but that's a surface Navy thing.

**Milton Shupe** · June 23rd, 2012, 11:25

Originally Posted by fliger747

I am not aware of the Navy pilots ever wearing their visored officers hats in an airplane they were crew on. This was primaraly a Naval patrol aircraft. Going with the baseball caps or the folders and one would be pretty close, and the Mae Wests....

Great project! BTW spot welding was used on a lot of cowlings as opposed to rivets, which is what my mom did for B-24's and B-17's during WWII.

T

All the older aircraft pictures that I have good clarity on, the cowling attachpoints (rivets/welds) look like this.

Is this rivet or weld?

**Milton Shupe** · June 23rd, 2012, 11:31

Originally Posted by Willy

I'm with Fliger on this. The "crush" hats are called combination hats in the Navy and I've never seen a pic of anyone on a Navy flight crew wearing them. In my 20 years of Naval service, those hats were mainly worn with dress uniforms, blues, whites and dress khaki. That was mainly a Army Air Force thing.

I have seen them worn with working uniforms shipboard, but that's a surface Navy thing.

Well, part of my challenge is to provide something workable for all users/services of the aircraft, therefore, my request for assistance. :-) Yank those hats off boys! LOL

**Milton Shupe** · June 23rd, 2012, 11:34

Originally Posted by vonernsk

Milton,

What you have now looks just fiiiiine! Really impressed with the speed that you crank these a/c out and to such a high standard. The Harpoon certainly continues your run of outstanding American light bombers and patrol a/c. I love the power and sheer in your face agressiveness of the Beech Grizzly.

Really satisfying to do bumps and circuits in as well.

Thanks a bunch for your committment to our hobby.

Mal

Thank you Mal. It does help to be retired and able to commit 4-14 hours per day. :-)

Edit: Always wanted to do a heavy bomber but they seem to all be well covered now. I had started working on a B-29 but Gnoopey beat me to that . LOL Only 90 miles from MAAF so I had hoped for some up close and personal reference pics from there.

I did the Grizzly at the recommendation of Willy long ago. Not sure he ever flies it though. ;-)

***sc7500*** · June 23rd, 2012, 11:52

Originally Posted by Milton Shupe

...All the older aircraft pictures that I have good clarity on, the cowling attachpoints (rivets/welds) look like this... Is this rivet or weld?...

As a fabricator, I'm gonna make some guesses here, Mr S...

The B&W shot APPEARS to be rivets, possibly 3/16" Head diameter....

The color photo looks like Dzus fasteners, either Button-head or Counter-sunk.... and they're HUGE, so 1/2" head diameter, and probably "captured" style to prevent loss....

Spot welds are typically 1/4" in diameter and pretty much flat....

SC

**Milton Shupe** · June 23rd, 2012, 11:55

Originally Posted by sc7500

As a fabricator, I'm gonna make some guesses here, Mr S...

The B&W shot APPEARS to be rivets, possibly 3/16" Head diameter....

The color photo looks like Dzus fasteners, either Button-head or Counter-sunk.... and they're HUGE, so 1/2" head diameter, and probably "captured" style to prevent loss....

Spot welds are typically 1/4" in diameter and pretty much flat....

SC

Ah, great input SC. Thanks :-)

***huub vink*** · June 23rd, 2012, 12:02

Originally Posted by fliger747

I am not aware of the Navy pilots ever wearing their visored officers hats in an airplane they were crew on. This was primaraly a Naval patrol aircraft. Going with the baseball caps or the folders and one would be pretty close, and the Mae Wests....

Hey Tom and Willy, I think there is a small difference between the US Navy and the ROYAL Navy, I think it took until well after the Harpoon before people at this side of the ocean were wearing caps. So perhaps is bare headed the best solution.....

Cheers,
huub