SOH Team Project - Grumman Tracker, Trader, Tracer

[Milton Shupe]

Got a basic fueling op modeled, not sure exactly how this should be animated, especially the capture basket on retraction. Anyone seen a video of that in operation. Does it collapse and get drawn inside?

[seawing]

Hi Milton,

it looks terrific! Great!

For the animation, the refueling hose must be longer. Not sure exactly what length it will have on the KC-2, but there must be a safe distance between tanker and receiver. Look here:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._refueling.jpg

Second, the basket collapses into its fuselage fairing when fully retracted, like so:
http://dmn.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/w...ed-drogues.jpg

For the interior, I guess it will be a removable system, meaning a modular tank, probably on a crate or something, so it can be installed when the aircraft is flying in its tanker role (K) and be removed when it is used as Carrier Onboard Delivery (COD). For the COD I would just retain the seats, that you have for the old C-1A version. So, in the end, you may need two versions of this plane, one in tanker config and one in transport config. BTW, I think (though not sure) the British VC10 has a similar system.

I have only done repaints, though nothing from scratch, otherwise I would surely offer a hand on the textures. Sorry!

Best regards,

Seawing

[seawing]

One more thing! From what Flightglobal wrote, the Brazilians obviously are looking into converting two planes into "Turbo Tracers" for AEW purposes. So, maybe there is even a chance for a E-1 turbos version!

Seawing

[Milton Shupe]

I judged the length from this drawing. Since there are no real world versions yet available, I cannot replicate or model what I can't see. It's all a guess. Maybe we should await a RW version.

[seawing]

Ok, Milton, I understand your problem. Well, I think double the length would be a fairly good guess. But, what do you think of this, releasing the transport version when the turbos come out and when the first Brazilian with tanker equipment is out, release the tanker? Although it would be sad having to qwait until 2015 ...
I also have some more on the Brazilian AEW version. It appears to be fairly close to the Turbo Tracker with only the MAD boom is missing. So, that should not be too tricky to build. Both airplanes might get an EFIS cockpit as well.
I will see whether I can find out more about the conversions! Like here:

The Brazilian navy hopes to refurbish the 8 airplanes they bought to create an embarked squadron with air tanker and AEW planes for their small aircraft carrier, the Sau Paolo, which cannot take the Hawkeye.
And in December 2011 they placed their first related order, contracting Marsh Aerospace, an Arizona-based company specialized in refurbishing Trader airplanes for civilian and military roles. The contract is for refurbishing a first block of 4 airframes and replacing the aircraft’s original Wright R-1820-8WA powerplants with Honeywell TPE331-14GR turboprops equipped with Hartzell HC-135MA-5 five-blade propellers. Marsh will also upgrade the avionics and communication/navigation suite, but it will, most importantly, install inflight refuelling equipment with a centreline hose and drogue system. The four airplanes are to be known as KC-2 Turbo Traders, and will be all delivered by 2015.
There is no indication of how much fuel they can carry, but the Trader with its old engines has a large fuselage which can be fitted with 9 seats or used to carry over 3500 kg of payload. As firebombers, the Trackers carry 3032 liters of Fire Retardant in the fuselage, so there is quite some space for additional fuel tanks expanding the airplane's already considerable fuel capacity.
It won't be a Voyager, of course, but it will be better than a Buddy Buddy solution, and won't 'waste' a fighter bomber in tanker role.
The contract value is 167 million dollars. Added to the purchase cost, each tanker will cost just 41.7 million dollars.

Carrierborne air tanker? You bet, and for bargain price as well!

Within the year the Brazilian navy hopes to give the go ahead to a second contract for turning at least 2 of the other airframes into embarked AEW platforms. Interestingly, the Eliradar HEW-784 and Thales Searchwater 2000 sensors viewed as prime candidates for being selected as main sensor system. The HEW-784 is used by the 4 italian Merlin AEW helicopters, while the Searchwater 2000 is used by the Sea King MK7 and is, together with Vigilance pod (APG-80 derivative radar from LM) the main competitor for the RN's future AEW solution as well.


The Trader modified for AEW role would contain the radar in a drop-down radome deploying when in flight from the bottom of the fuselage. This solution is not new for Trader/Trackers, since the original ASW variant of the Tracker used this method for deploying its search radar.
The airplane will carry 2 or 3 consoles for the radar operators, and almost certainly will be re-engined like the KC-2 Turbo Trader.

And AEW solution as well. Not an Hawkeye, but a quantum leap in capability from an helicopter based solution. 25.000 feet of patrol altitude against 15.000 at most, and up to 7 hours in the air. As a plus, it is intended to use the Searchwater 2000 which the RN already uses. Again, it promises to be cheap as chips.

The advantages of a Turbo Trader solution for AEW are very noticeable: it has a longer range, is faster, can stay in the air for longer and, very important, fly much higher than an helicopter, giving a better detection range to its radar. A Sea King MK7 can fly its surveillance patrols at 15.000 feet, but will routinely stay down at just 10.000, while a normal Trader will fly at 18.000 and a re-engined one will be able to patrol at 25.000 feet, exploiting the Searchwater's performances much better.
And if the airplane was fitted with a refueling probe, its tanker sister could expand its patrol endurance in any moment.

The Brazilian navy is very serious about its expanding and improving Navy and carrier strike capability. It has also chosen a remarkably cost-effective solution to air refuelling and AEW.


Greetings,

Seawing

[fallenphoenix1986]

For what its worth naval tankers tend to have quite short hoses:

http://navyphotos.togetherweserved.com/1341081_med.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_kIWY2DV0Kn...eling+F-18.JPG
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/KA-6D_refueling_S-3As_1976.JPEG
http://airrefuelingarchive.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/oif-d-16.jpg
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~hw2t-hrt...ugi/refuel.jpg

Exactly how short the KC-2's will be I can't say but would be surprised if max extension were even as much as twice the length of the sketch above.

Craig

[SSI01]

Milton I went to YouTube looking for P&D refueling films, everything I've seen indicates the entire drogue retracts into its housing with the exception of the outermost section of the drogue - the circumference - which remains on the outside and when offering wind resistance exerts enough "pull" on the rest of the drogue to ensure it comes out when needed, when released from braking.

[fliger747]

Milton I went to YouTube looking for P&D refueling films, everything I've seen indicates the entire drogue retracts into its housing with the exception of the outermost section of the drogue - the circumference - which remains on the outside and when offering wind resistance exerts enough "pull" on the rest of the drogue to ensure it comes out when needed, when released from braking.

Wonder what they refuel with these? Sort of on the slow side, helicopters? Length of probe in illustration is probably set to keep the illustration compact.

T

[Sascha66]

Well I uploaded the first cargo texture

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforum...7&linkid=13739

More will follow tomorrow!

Enjoy!

Sascha

[Milton Shupe]

Thank you Sascha I really like that one.

[Sundog]

Wonder what they refuel with these? Sort of on the slow side, helicopters? Length of probe in illustration is probably set to keep the illustration compact.

T

Most A2A refueling by most nations, and the U.S. Navy, have been probe and drogue, partly due to it's simplicity. It was also the first form of A2A refueling developed; by the British, using a Lanc tanker and a Meteor.

I assume you meant why P&D as opposed to boom refueling used by the USAF? Boom refueling, which was developed by Boeing IIRC, was due to the fact the early USAF wanted intercontinental range for it's bomber force. As a result, they needed a tanker system that could pump large amounts of fuel quickly, to refuel large thirsty aircraft, like jet bombers. The P & D system simply wasn't going to be able to cut it, in terms of fuel transfer rate (lbs/min). Also, you need to be fairly responsive with a P&D system to hit the basket. With the boom system you fly in formation and let the boom operator take care of the hook-up which is more favorable for refueling when in a B-47 or a B-52.

[Milton Shupe]

Received the beautiful textures from Duckie and made final adjustments to the models.
Early Sunday morning I will do thorough checks and try to upload early in the afternoon.

[Firekitten]

Looks truely awesome Milton... and the artwork from the painters is truly fantastic... Looking forward to doing one or two myself once I get a break in all the work I'm doing!

[Maarten]

Received the beautiful textures from Duckie and made final adjustments to the models.
Early Sunday morning I will do thorough checks and try to upload early in the afternoon.

Oh, they look magic! I just can't wait!

Cheers,
Maarten

[Milton Shupe]

Looks truely awesome Milton... and the artwork from the painters is truly fantastic... Looking forward to doing one or two myself once I get a break in all the work I'm doing!

Thank you and I will look forward to that The paint you splashed on the A26's was indeed "collectors edition" material.

Oh, they look magic! I just can't wait!

Cheers,
Maarten

I am just as excited as you, Duckie, Nigel, Fliger747, JAVIS, and N101ST to get this one out. Thanks to all of the contributors who invested time and energy in these aircraft, and those of you who helped keep us motivated through the process.