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Thread: Speaking of B-17s

  1. #1

    Speaking of B-17s

    You guys have inspired me to add a bombsight to the FDGV2 B-17s. This will work on all models, and supports the newest DP, CFG, and AIR files by Rami and company, as well as Kelti/Green Ghost's flame/exhaust effects. Easy to install, just replace your current panel folder.

    Soon, you'll be doing this:
    Attachment 33085
    And this:
    Attachment 33087
    And hopefully this:
    Attachment 33086
    Best Regards,
    Ghostrider
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  2. #2

    Reply...

    Ghostrider,

    Thank you. This represents the best thing about CFS2. We didn't give up on the B-17, we found ways to truly fix and enhance it. I'm sure for B-17 and B-24s alike, this will prove very useful, something that was truly needed.

    I already approved it, so it's ready to go! :salute:
    "Rami"

    "Do you think the language in the second amendment is clear enough? You know, about the right to bear arms?"

    "Of course it's clear. Every American has the right to hang a pair of bear arms on their wall. How could that possibly be misconstrued?"

    My campaign site: http://www.box.net/shared/0k1e1rz29h
    My missions site: http://www.box.net/shared/ueh4kazk3v
    My scenery site: http://www.box.net/shared/knb1l0ztobhs2esb14rb

  3. #3

    Thanks Ghostrider.

    As they say.. The sky is the limit!

    Cheers, Discus

  4. #4
    Merged... over Atlanta bearcat241's Avatar
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    No Discus, correction: the CODE is the limit!

    Now that's a cool lookin' Norton setup, Ghostrider. I've mainly been pushing fighters in CFS2 for several years now ( with my schedule, QC has been my quick fix ). But this bombsight mod might just get me back to my long lost love for the heavies.

    "If you're in a fair fight, you didn't plan it right"


  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by bearcat241 View Post
    No Discus, correction: the CODE is the limit!

    Now that's a cool lookin' Norton setup, Ghostrider. I've mainly been pushing fighters in CFS2 for several years now ( with my schedule, QC has been my quick fix ). But this bombsight mod might just get me back to my long lost love for the heavies.
    Thanks, Bearcat - I took the photo of the Norden myself at Hill Air Force Base Museum a while ago, and superimposed it over the Mosquito bombsight reticle. It works really well. But bombing from altitude isn't easy - throw in some flak, fighters, and a crosswind, and you've got a real challenge! Next are the B-24s!
    Best Regards,
    Ghostrider
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  6. #6
    Works great GR, thanks, I wish I knew the mechanics of CFS2, I'd love to mount this is the Beech AT-11.

    Bones:salute:
    My Dad's last words to me were, "Son, an eagle may soar to great heights, but a weasel never gets sucked into a jet engine..."
    And then he died...
    He was sucked into a jet engine...

  7. #7

    Revealing the magic trick!

    Alright, TonyBones, since you asked, it's really easy. You can mount this sight on whatever aircraft you want to. I think it's the best bombsight out there for CFS2. It works for any altitude and any airspeed, like a real Norden. In short, it is "the bomb!"

    Here's a little tutorial:

    Save a copy of your panel.cfg in case something goes awry. All you need to do is copy and paste the text in red into the aircraft's panel.cfg. Make sure your window titles are in numerical sequence. Keep the bombsight in window 02. This means it is called up with (SHIFT+3). It doesn't seem to work in other window #s for some reason. Keep the Norden graphic overlay in Window 07, so it is called up by (SHIFT+8), although this number is not critical like #2 is for the sight itself. Re-number your [Window Titles] section, and each [WindowXX] as needed after you copy the bombsight and Norden into [Window02] and [Window07]. Copy the Norden.BMP file into your panel folder, and you should be in business. Nothin' to it! Go drop some bombs!

    If you find that you are missing any gauges, that tells me that you have not downloaded and installed my B-29 Superfortress package. For shame. Go get it. The gauges are all packed up in there!

    [Window Titles]
    Window00=Main Panel
    Window01=Engine Controls
    Window02=Norden Bombsight
    Window03=Radio Stack
    Window04=GPS
    Window05=Trim Panel
    Window06=ADF
    Window07=Sight


    [VIEWS]
    VIEW_FORWARD_WINDOWS=MAIN_PANEL

    VIEW_FORWARD_DIR=1.250, 0.000, 0.000

    VIEW_AUX_00_WINDOWS=31
    VIEW_AUX_00_ZOOM=1.000
    VIEW_AUX_00_EYE=0.000, 0.000, 10.000
    VIEW_AUX_00_DIR=90.000, 0.000, 0.000

    VIEW_AUX_01_WINDOWS=32
    VIEW_AUX_01_ZOOM=1.000
    VIEW_AUX_01_EYE=0.000, 0.000, 10.000
    VIEW_AUX_01_DIR=58.000, 0.000, 0.000

    VIEW_AUX_02_WINDOWS=38
    VIEW_AUX_02_ZOOM=1.000
    VIEW_AUX_02_EYE=0.000, 0.000, 10.000
    VIEW_AUX_02_DIR=48.000, 0.000, 0.000

    VIEW_AUX_03_WINDOWS=34
    VIEW_AUX_03_ZOOM=1.000
    VIEW_AUX_03_EYE=0.000, 0.000, 10.000
    VIEW_AUX_03_DIR=38.000, 0.000, 0.000

    VIEW_AUX_04_WINDOWS=42
    VIEW_AUX_04_ZOOM=1.000
    VIEW_AUX_04_EYE=0.000, 0.000, 10.000
    VIEW_AUX_04_DIR=28.000, 0.000, 0.000

    VIEW_AUX_05_WINDOWS=43
    VIEW_AUX_05_ZOOM=1.000
    VIEW_AUX_05_EYE=0.000, 0.000, 10.000
    VIEW_AUX_05_DIR=18.000, 0.000, 0.000





    //--------------------------------------------------------
    [Window00]
    file=PANEL_BACKGROUND_640.BMP
    file_1024=panel_background_1024.bmp
    size_mm=640
    window_size_ratio=1.000
    position=7
    visible=1
    ident=MAIN_PANEL
    sizeable=1
    render_3d_window=1
    window_size= 1.000, 1.000
    pixel_size=0,0
    window_pos= 0.000, 0.000

    gauge00=f4f4_wildcat!Magnetic-Compass, 195,358,52,51
    gauge01=F4U1A_Corsair!Icon_Map, 542,351,12,12
    gauge02=FDG2_B17_2!bombbay_doors, 265,383,13,13
    gauge03=FDG2_B17!Feather Prop 1, 413,419,29,29
    gauge04=FDG2_B17!Feather Prop 2, 443,419,29,29
    gauge05=FDG2_B17!Feather Prop 3, 507,418,29,29
    gauge06=FDG2_B17!Feather Prop 4, 536,418,29,29
    gauge07=FDG_Switches!Throttle Panel Toggle, 518,351,12,12
    gauge08=FDG_Switches!Toggle Panel Ident 41, 578,351,12,12
    gauge09=FDG_Switches!Toggle Panel Ident 31, 566,351,12,12
    gauge10=FDG_Switches!Toggle Panel Ident 51, 554,351,12,12
    gauge11=Cessna!GPS Display Toggle, 530,351,12,12
    gauge12=f4f4_wildcat!Directional-Gyro, 497,287,50,61
    gauge13=p38f_lightning!Attitude-Indicator, 570,290,56,56
    gauge14=p38f_lightning!Altimeter, 411, 366 ,52,50
    gauge15=p38f_lightning!Airspeed-Indicator, 471,366,52,50
    gauge16=p38f_lightning!Turn-Coordinator, 530,366,50,49
    gauge17=p38f_lightning!Climb-Indicator, 590,366,50,48
    gauge18=FDG_P47_suction, 312,436,43,43
    gauge19=MAPE_Amps, 192,440,40,39
    gauge20=f4u1a_corsair!Hydraulic_Pressure, 271,439,38,35
    gauge21=magnetic_compass!Magnetic-Compass, 577,14,55,55
    gauge22=p38f_lightning!Clock, 494,3,56,55
    gauge23=Bendix_king.adf.slaved, 259,321,56,55
    gauge24=DAP_ExhaustFX!ExhaustFX, 0,0,10,10,75

    //--------------------------------------------------------
    [Window01]
    file=Engine Controls.bmp
    file_1024=Engine Controls.bmp
    size_mm=200,150
    window_size_ratio=1.000
    position=6
    visible=0
    ident=THROTTLE_PANEL
    sizeable=1
    window_size= 0.951, 0.979
    window_pos= 0.130, 0.041

    gauge00=MAPE_B17!Manifold Pressure 1&2, 45,9,15,15
    gauge01=MAPE_B17!Manifold Pressure 3&4, 60,10,14,14
    gauge02=MAPE_B17!Tachometer 1&2, 44,25,15,15
    gauge03=MAPE_B17!Tachometer 3&4, 59,24,16,16
    gauge04=MAPE_B17!Fuel Pressure 1&2, 77,17,13,13
    gauge05=MAPE_B17!Fuel Pressure 3&4, 91,17,13,13
    gauge06=MAPE_B17!Oil Pressure 1&2, 77,33,13,13
    gauge07=MAPE_B17!Oil Pressure 3&4, 91,33,13,13
    gauge08=MAPE_B17!Oil Temperature 1&2, 77,48,13,13
    gauge09=MAPE_B17!Oil Temperature 3&4, 91,48,13,13
    gauge10=MAPE_B17!Cyl Head Temperature 1&2, 64,64,13,13
    gauge11=MAPE_B17!Cyl Head Temperature 3&4, 78,64,13,13
    gauge12=MAPE_B17!Carb Air Temperature 1&2, 93,64,13,13
    gauge13=MAPE_B17!Carb Air Temperature 3&4, 107,64,13,13
    gauge14=p47d!Gear, 60, 41 ,15,15
    gauge15=FDG2_B17!Throttle Quadrant, 0,91,60,52
    gauge16=FDG2_B17!Magneto 1 & 2, -3,52,20,20
    gauge17=FDG2_B17!Magneto 3 & 4, -3,71,20,20
    gauge18=FDG2_B17!Cowl Flaps, 27,79,26,12
    gauge19=FDG2_B17!Start 2, 134,24,7,9
    gauge20=FDG2_B17!Start 3, 134,30,7,9
    gauge21=FDG2_B17!Start 4, 134,36,7,9
    gauge22=FDG2_B17!Starter 1 & 2, 145,48,6,6
    gauge23=FDG2_B17!Starter 3 & 4, 158,48,6,6
    gauge24=FDG2_B17!Start 1, 134,18,7,9
    gauge25=737-400!Landing Lights, 50,59,3,3
    gauge26=737-400!Navigation Lights, 40,58,3,3
    gauge27=737-400!Landing Lights, 150,159,3,3
    gauge28=737-400!Landing Lights, 150,159,3,3
    gauge29=FDG_A20_Fuel!Fuel, 107,31,15
    gauge30=mooney_bravo!OAT, 107,19,12


    //--------------------------------------------------------
    [Window02]
    Background_color=0,0,0
    size_mm=640,480
    window_size_ratio=1.000
    position=0
    visible=0
    ident=Norden Bombsight
    render_3d_window=0
    window_size= 1.000, 1.000
    window_pos= 0.000,-0.300

    gauge00=Mosquito!sight, 145,51,359,443
    gauge01=Mosquito!Switchbb, 540,0,100,479
    gauge02=b29.airspeed, 596,210,44,47
    gauge03=b26.verticalspeed, 596,269,44,47
    gauge04=B26_RLC_Bomb_Release, 606,189,23,20
    gauge05=AAF_bomb_bay_lt, 606,171,23,18
    gauge06=f4u1a_corsair!Compass, 564,371,44,47
    gauge07=b17.altimeter.2, 585,322,44,47
    gauge08=lear_45!Rudder Trim, 599,64,32,33
    gauge09=Mosquito!Switchb, 0,0,173,480
    gauge10=b29.clock, 517,371,44,47


    //--------------------------------------------------------
    [Window03]
    Background_color=2,2,2
    size_mm=156,241
    window_size_ratio=1.000
    position=8
    visible=0
    ident=51
    window_size= 0.182, 0.354
    window_pos= 0.808, 0.006

    gauge00=Bendix_King_Radio!Bendix-King Radio Nav-Comm 1, 0,0,156,59
    gauge01=Bendix_King_Radio!Bendix-King Radio Nav-Comm 2, 0,57,156,59
    gauge02=Bendix_King_Radio!Bendix-King Radio DME, 0,113,156,41
    gauge03=Bendix_King_Radio!Bendix-King Radio Xpndr, 0,150,156,48
    gauge04=Bendix_King_Radio!Bendix-King Radio AP, 0,195,156,47


    //--------------------------------------------------------
    [Window04]
    Background_color=16,16,16
    size_mm=150,250
    window_size_ratio=1.000
    position=8
    visible=0
    ident=GPS_PANEL
    window_size= 0.166, 0.346
    window_pos= 0.134, 0.654

    gauge00=gps!gps, 0,0,150,250


    //--------------------------------------------------------
    [Window05]
    Background_color=0,0,0
    size_mm=83,86
    window_size_ratio=1.000
    position=0
    visible=0
    ident=41
    sizeable=1
    window_size= 0.171, 0.242
    window_pos= 0.000, 0.000

    gauge00=kingair!Aileron_Trim, 36,1,47,53
    gauge01=kingair!Pitch_Trim, 1,1,33,79
    gauge02=kingair!Rudder_Trim, 36,56,47,26

    //--------------------------------------------------------
    [Window06]
    Background_color=0,0,0
    size_mm=400,240
    window_size_ratio=1.000
    position=4
    visible=0
    ident=31
    sizeable=1
    window_size= 0.411, 0.332
    window_pos= 0.590, 0.000

    gauge00=737-400!Autopilot, 144,0,255,38
    gauge01=737-400!ADF, 272,94,127,53
    gauge02=737-400!Nav 1, 144,40,127,53
    gauge03=737-400!Nav 2, 272,40,127,53
    gauge04=Mooney_Bravo!HSI, 288,147,95
    gauge05=Mooney_Bravo!ADF, 162,149,90
    gauge06=Mooney_Bravo!Clock, 157,102,62,36
    gauge07=Extra-300!Nav GPS Switch, 232,102,23,36

    //--------------------------------------------------------
    [Window07]
    file=norden.bmp
    file_1024=norden.bmp
    size_mm=640,480
    window_size_ratio=1.000
    position=0
    visible=0
    ident=80
    window_size= 0.750, 0.750
    window_pos= 0.110, 0.210



    //--------------------------------------------------------
    [Vcockpit01]
    Background_color=0,0,0
    size_mm=640
    visible=0
    pixel_size=640,0
    texture=$gauges

    gauge00=MAPE_B17!Manifold Pressure 1&2, 3,477,160
    gauge01=MAPE_B17!Manifold Pressure 3&4, 167,477,160,160
    gauge02=MAPE_B17!Tachometer 1&2, 321,478,160,160
    gauge03=MAPE_B17!Tachometer 3&4, 473,481,160,160
    gauge04=MAPE_B17!Cyl Head Temperature 1&2, 164,318,160,160
    gauge05=MAPE_B17!Cyl Head Temperature 3&4, 322,320,160,160
    gauge06=MAPE_B17!Oil Temperature 1&2, 482,155,160,160
    gauge07=MAPE_B17!Oil Temperature 3&4, 482,318,160,159
    gauge08=f6f3_hellcat!Landing_Gear, 321,155,160,160
    gauge09=extra-300.directional-gyro, 326,-4,160,160
    gauge10=f4f4_wildcat!Magnetic-Compass, 480,0,160
    gauge11=p38f_lightning!Altimeter, 166,1,158
    gauge12=p38f_lightning!Airspeed-Indicator, 4,0,160
    gauge13=p38f_lightning!Turn-Coordinator, 4,161,160,160
    gauge14=p38f_lightning!Climb-Indicator, 163, 160 ,160,160
    gauge15=p38f_lightning!Attitude-Indicator, 5,321,160


    //--------------------------------------------------------
    [Vcockpit02]
    Background_color=0,0,0
    size_mm=640,640
    visible=0
    window_size= 1.000, 1.333
    pixel_size=640,640
    texture=$gauges_1
    window_pos= 0.000, 0.000

    gauge00=MAPE_B17!Oil Pressure 1&2, 319,2,160,159
    gauge01=MAPE_B17!Oil Pressure 3&4, 479,2,160,159
    gauge02=MAPE_Amps, 476,157,167,164
    gauge03=FDG_A20_Fuel!Fuel, 330,325,160,278
    gauge04=f6f3_hellcat!Landing_Gear, 484,484,160,159
    gauge05=MAPE_B17!Fuel Pressure 1&2, -4,1,160,159
    gauge06=MAPE_B17!Fuel Pressure 3&4, 158,2,160,159
    gauge07=MAPE_B17!Carb Air Temperature 1&2, 2,165,160,159
    gauge08=MAPE_B17!Carb Air Temperature 3&4, 163,163,160,160
    gauge09=FDG_P47_suction, 322,161,160,159
    gauge10=MAPE_Amps, 488,322,160,159
    gauge11=f4u1a_corsair!Hydraulic_Pressure, 163,330,160,147
    gauge12=p38f_lightning!Clock, 5,487,160,159



    [Default View]
    X=0
    Y=0
    SIZE_X=8191
    SIZE_Y=6143

    This is from the readme in my B-17 download:

    - Important Key Commands:

    (SHIFT+1) = Pilot cockpit view

    (SHIFT+3) = "Norden" Bombsight aiming reticle and controls

    (SHIFT+8) = Norden Bombsight overlay - this is just for looks - you don't need it, but I think it looks cool, and I took the photo myself, so use it! You need to pull it up (just once) for each down angle view on the bombsight you click into. I like to leave it off of the higher angles to give a wider field of view, simulating looking out of the plexiglass nose to acquire your target, rather than through the bombsight. Lower angles get the sight overlay to actually aim the bombs.

    High altitude bombing:
    From the Pilot window, press (SHIFT+1) to get rid of the main instrument panel view. Now press (SHIFT+3). This will bring up the bombsight window. It is very simple to use. Well before reaching your target, assume control of the aircraft from the pilot. Use the auto pilot, throttle, prop, and mixture controls to establish the desired airspeed, heading, and altitude for your bomb run. From this point forward, use only rudder trim to correct your course, and to counteract crosswinds, etc. Select the elevation "down angle" of the sight using the silver knob at the upper right of the panel. Use (SHIFT+8) to overlay the Norden bombsight on whichever angle views you choose. Necessary? No. Cool? Very. You can zoom in and out, but for your final aimpoint, zoom all the way out, then zoom back in twice. With apologies to the Monty Python Boys, two shall be the number of the zooming, and the number of the zooming shall be two. Three times shalt thou not zoom, neither zoomest thou once, excepting that thou then proceedest unto two zooms. Four zooms is right out! When the number two zoom, being the second zoom, be reached, waitest thou until the aiming reticle is upon thy target. When thou beholdest the reticle upon thy target, droppest thou thy bombs towards thy foe, and he, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it. (Armaments, Ch:3 v:9-27.) Closest thou thy bomb bay doors, and returnest thou to the role of pilot by pressing (SHIFT+8), (SHIFT+3), and (SHIFT+1) to bring back the main (pilot) instrument panel view.

    Note: sometimes the Norden or the aiming reticle will dissappear when you change your down angle. Not to worry. Just press (SHIFT+8) or (SHIFT+3) again as necessary, and it will come back.

    I normally fly with real-world weather, depicted by FS Metar. (http://personal.telefonica.terra.es/...FSMetar154.zip) I highly recommend this program to add a tremendous amount of realism to your flights. The difference between flying in perfectly "still" air and cloudless skies, and having to contend with headwinds, crosswinds, and clouds obscuring your target, is like night and day. You will never go back. I have found it useful to use the CFO Bomb trainer cheat and rudder trim to "calibrate" my sight as far as zoom level, and to compensate for any crosswind - this simulates the "Drift" adjustment the bombardier had to make on the real Norden. What you're trying to do is to get the "cheat" impact point to coincide with the aiming reticle of the bombsight. It will be close, but crosswinds will mess you up if you don't account for them. Then I turn the Bomb trainer back off before my release point, so I don't feel like I'm bombing a Target Store, with the red bull's-eyes on the ground. Give yourself enough time on your bomb run to do this. Dial in some crosswind, flak and fighters, and you will have yourself a challenge, which bombing from 30,000 feet was. With practice, though, you'll be putting your bombs in the "pickle barrel."

    Have fun, and let's see some screenies of the aircraft you mount this on, and your best bomb runs!
    Best Regards,
    Ghostrider
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  8. #8
    Nice work GR, looks like Philippe's old Bombsight is got some new dressing. Very Cool Stuff.
    Happy Trails! www.officialponyexpress.org

    Pen32Win

    For my D/L's Search for both Pen32Win and AF=Midway. There are also files in the Archives under AF=Midway.

  9. #9
    Indeed!
    Nice to see this bombsight is still useful to some. I can remember doing the math and physics behind it (this is more compicated than you may think because CFS2 takes into account the fact the earth is spherical for its graphics). If I may venture a suggestion: it would perhaps look even better if the image of the Norden Bombsight were bigger and the different dials and knobs were on the bombsight itself. Gosh, I miss all this stuff...

  10. #10
    Hello Phillipe!

    Thanks for allowing me to continue to 'tinker' with your excellent bombsight! This all started about a year ago with the resurrection of Gnoopey's B-29 model. I thought a B-29 without a bombsight is just silly. The same could be said for a B-17. I tried to contact you for permission to use your bombsight back then, but obviously was unable to do so. So let me take this opportunity to publicly thank you once again, and acknowledge your brilliant piece of work. The changes I have made are only cosmetic. I like your ideas for improvement - did a lot of work with it in FS Panel Studio back then, I may revisit your ideas in a future version. At a minimum, The B-24, B-25, and B-26 still need to be equipped with a CFS2 'Norden'. Perhaps we can collaborate at some point. As you can see, CFS2 is still alive and well, more than 10 years after it's introduction, thanks to a lot of great innovations like your bombsight, so thanks again! :salute:
    Best Regards,
    Ghostrider
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  11. #11
    Good to see you Monsieur Burnage!

    Those Tiffies and Typhoons of yours are still getting a good workout.
    Keep your airspeed up,



    Jagdflieger

    http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforum...me=Jagdflieger

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]



    "Those who would give up Essential Liberty
    to purchase a little Temporary Safety,
    deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

    Benjamin Franklin

  12. #12
    Ghostrider, thank you, somehow I missed your reply. Thanks again:salute:

    Bones
    My Dad's last words to me were, "Son, an eagle may soar to great heights, but a weasel never gets sucked into a jet engine..."
    And then he died...
    He was sucked into a jet engine...

  13. #13

    GhostRider,

    You're on a roll - nice work.


    AC

  14. #14
    Thanks guys - glad to be able to contribute in some small way. But my contributions pale into insignificance compared to some around here!
    Best Regards,
    Ghostrider
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  15. #15
    Charter Member 2014 Shadow Wolf 07's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rami View Post
    Ghostrider,

    Thank you. This represents the best thing about CFS2. We didn't give up on the B-17, we found ways to truly fix and enhance it. I'm sure for B-17 and B-24s alike, this will prove very useful, something that was truly needed.

    I already approved it, so it's ready to go! :salute:
    Thank you GR!
    "De Oppresso Liber"

  16. #16
    Speaking of the FDG2 B-17...

    When I first got them they didn't work. I'd get a ctd when I tried to fly one. However, after a lot of head-scratching and editing, I got them all working. I now have them all broken up into separate aircraft, which is necessary for the mission builder. I have all the different models and paints, and they all work great. I get good frame rates with them due to the multi-lod's.

    I've slept since then, so I have no idea how I fixed them. I was wondering if others had the same problem with them. I'm using Vista, BTW.

  17. #17
    Hmmm... I had no issues with them, and have split them up as you have - but I'm still running XP.
    Best Regards,
    Ghostrider
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  18. #18
    The same as GR for me.:salute:

  19. #19
    Members +
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    Hi GR, been trying to set up this bombsite on a B25 Mitchell....I'd like to give it a try. Not getting anywhere at all. I'm using the CFS1 keyboard command set, that might be the hassle.
    If I knew the exact commands used to call up the bomb site window/s SHIFT+3, SHIFT+ 8 etc I could reset my keyboard commands accordingly. Not that easy a job to cross reference them :isadizzy:

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    By grunau_baby in forum The NewsHawks
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    Last Post: February 7th, 2009, 23:58

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