REQ: FSX SB2C Helldiver

[roger-wilco-66]

@ Helldiver: I hope you didn't take my quotations above personal, I just wanted to share them. I also understand your feelings about the subject, as one who has been there.
I also think that anybody who tackles this project will find it great to have someone here who has first hand experience and is willing to share this. Great opportunity, maybe one of a kind!

@ Bazzar: Of course I can't predict how the market would react to the Helldiver, but I think this aircraft is very well known out there. I knew what a Helldiver was when I was eight years old and I'm not even american. There is something about the martial name itself, I guess. If it is pre-marketed correctly ( some nice preview videos, development threads and other bruhaha ) and is up to date with the quality that e.g. Vertigo or A2A (or others) deliver, IMHO there is no reason why it shouldn't be as successful like the SBD Dauntless. Look at the P36 from Vertigo, I never understand why they did that plane, but it's an immaculate job despite the rather uneventful (in my terms) aircraft and it is worth having for the quality alone.
Then add a nice and seldom or never realised gimmick in it like droppable bombs (that explode on impact :-) ) or working cannons, or a communicating gunner/navigator, then you have an addition that really puts it apart from the mass.
Maybe a scenery designer, who shall go unnamed here, will even built a FSX Phillipine 1944 or the Jima Islands scenario for it.
So, when's the release date???

Regarding the aircraft and the gunner: I never ceased to wonder how that gunner could hit anything behind that aircraft. I also wondered when I saw the cockpit layout of the Kingfisher, same thing.


Cheers,
Mark

[Prowler1111]

..helloooo?..is this thing on?(pointing to the microphone).....


Prowler

[roger-wilco-66]

ohh jeeez my bad sorry prowler :-)
I hear ya!

[Ken Stallings]

I'm sorry Ken, and apologize but sometimes I feel that I'm a lone voice in the wilderness. Vainly trying to set the story straight about the Helldiver while I can. - The plane that everybody hates.
I have to read such crap as, "The greatest contribution to aviation was Curtiss stopping the production of aircraft!"
The SB2C did not lead to Curtiss getting out of the aircraft business. It was the largest producer of aircraft in WWII and did not have the time or resources to devote to research in jet aircraft and so sold the aircraft division to North American Aviation. It was a business decision and the Helldiver had nothing to do with it.
Why does the US Naval Museum in Pensacola have four SBD on view but not a single SB2C? They have a screwed view of the war in the Pacific.
As far as beng difficult to fly, military airplanes are not designed for comfortable flying. You think a SNJ is easy? Today's fighter aircraft are so unmanageable that they have to flown by computer.
But suffice to say that we lost six F6-Fs four F4-Us one TBF and one SB2C on one cruise. The Helldiver got lost when the new signal officer launched the plane just when the bow was going down.
So I'm sorry if I've hurt some feelings here. I'm just trying set things straight. In a couple of years it won't matter to me.

On the subject of the Naval Air Museum at Pensacola, I 100% agree with you! I find it criminal that the attack aircraft that put more Japanese iron at the bottom of the ocean than any other is completely unrepresented at this official Navy museum.

You are right about Curtiss, and I can add one more point. Curtiss wanted to develop new aircraft but the industry was government controlled during the war and Curtiss was told to keep churning out P-40's by the bucketload during the first two years of the war and were prevented from developing new fighters. The SB2C was the one type they did produce. After the war ended, they were at a serious competitive disadvantage due to the government's controlling actions. They were extremely flush with cash and decided to specialize in other areas.

I certainly do not hate the Helldiver. I respect the aircraft and the crews who made her a lethal factor in the war -- lethal for the enemy. The two Japanese super battleships, Musashi and Yamato were both sent to the bottom primarily by the efforts of Helldiver crews. When the IJN was butchered in the last full year of the war, it was three principle weapons that did the butchering. Submarines on the merchant fleet, Hellcats on the IJN air fleet, and Helldivers on the surface combatant fleet. Why did the Navy shortchange the aircraft's historical role? I do not know. Again, I find it criminal negligence on the Navy's part. There were certainly plenty of aircraft the Navy could have acquired, and put into the museum.

I just approach this from a scientific point of view, pilot centric. How did the plane fly? It was a handful due to its size and power. It had a number of teething problems initially. It was heavy on the controls. But it was this same size and power that allowed it to be so lethal in war. It was fast and agile and could carry a very large payload. I'm very confident that Flieger747 is approaching it from the same point of view. The Avenger was also heavy on the controls and frankly sluggish. The Helldiver was a better attack aircraft than the Avenger. It just never had a President flying it!

I would like to see this aircraft done for FSX. I know one was done for FS2004 and I'm sure you can assist again with a project for FSX.

The final thing I ask you understand is that when I discuss any aircraft I try to be historically objective. I can comment on the flying characteristics while at the same time acknowledging the aircraft's combat record. Finally, we all hope you are here a lot longer to enjoy the discussion.

Cheers,

Ken

[Prowler1111]

Helldiver:
I sent you a PM...

Prowler
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[PRB]

... We have often looked at the the "Helldiver" as a subject but don't really have enough confidence in the market to commit to making one. If somebody could guarantee that it would be as popular as say a Hellcat or P38, we'd be pushing those vertices right now, believe me...

I don't have a crystal ball, but I reminded that Vertogo Studios just released a P-36, and nobody except warbird nuts have ever heard of that one either. So, would it "follow" that if the VS P-36 sells well, so might a well done SB2C ... ? In any event, it looks like RAZBAM may reap the rewards on this if I'm reading between the lines correctly...

[CG_1976]

Hey hey Some of us are P-36 nuts like the P-51 nuts. P-36 is just my speed for a warbird.
SB2C although would be another rare treasure.

[Cag40Navy]

Ill jump into the bandwagon for one!

[PRB]

Hey hey Some of us are P-36 nuts like the P-51 nuts. P-36 is just my speed for a warbird.
SB2C although would be another rare treasure.

Yep, I am too. I have the new P-36 and love it. I'm just commenting on the desicion of some payware outfits to model only P-51Ds and B-17Gs, on the conclusion that these are the only planes that can make any money for them. Presumably this is because they are after a market of people who have never heard of an SB2C and therefore will not buy it. I suspect that people who have never heard of an SB2C have also never heard of a P-36. And VS decided they would be able to sell a P-36. I'm hoping they make a lot of money with the P-36. Maybe that will encourage them and other payware companies to make other somewhat obscure, to non-warbird nuts like us, planes. Like the SB2C and P-61!

[Prowler1111]

Now i´m convinced i´m invisible..not even the most interested member in this subject responds........

Prowler:d

[Quicksand]

No way, Prowler! You have my support, to be sure.....

[Helldiver]

Roger Wilco, you are touching on a sore subject. You see with the broad canopy in front of you and the enormous tail behind you and the wing below you and obviously you can't point your guns straight up, really the only things you could hit was at three o'clock and nine o'clock. Since, unlike the movies, attacking aircraft don't sit out waiting for you to hit them. If lucky you might see a blur as something went by. So we'd do away with the twin .30s and get rid of the ammo and enjoy the luxury of not having the guns sticking in your back. The pilots loved the loss of extra weight.
Then we got a non-flying Admiral who asked why the 2 Cees guns were missing? He reinstated using the cursed guns. Luckily, I only had a few months under his command.

[DennyA]

Helldiver, note that while I appreciate everyone who has something constructive or well researched to contribute here's posts, there are many here who value your "I was there" posts most of all. Obviously there were those of different opinions, but please don't take some folks reposts of their writing as any denegration of your contributions here.

It's one thing to read the after the fact reminiscences of authors from the comfort of a civilian pilot or sim fan's life 60 years later, and quite another to have been there first-hand.

And on this Memorial Day, we salute and thank you!

[mal998]

Prowler,
Your posts are somewhat cryptic...I'm not sure folks are quite understanding what you're getting at?

If you are saying that you are going to build one and present it for sale, my response is outstanding!

I will, as I'm sure many others will, support your efforts.

[peter12213]

It would be nice to have one, but as a Brit our FAA described this aircraft as well to put it mildly bad, so we never used it in combat, however I do like the looks of this thingg so I wouldn't say no to one either!

[modelr]

Now i´m convinced i´m invisible..not even the most interested member in this subject responds........

Prowler:d

Prowler, you got my vote!!! While I'm a Vietnam Era USAF vet, I love almost all warbirds, and the SB2C is one of my favs. It would definitely have a spot on my deck!

And to Helldiver, from one vet to another, Thank You, SIR! :salute:
(I know, us non-coms don't like to be called "Sir", but this is a courtesy to your age and experience.)

[Prowler1111]

there is no secret code, i said 2 pages ago, plain and simple, we´ll do one, can´t be freeware but we need as much info as we can get on the plane..from you.
Also sent Helldiver a PM asking him for more info, to no avail...lol...
Best regards
Prowler
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[mal998]

there is no secret code, i said 2 pages ago, plain and simple, we´ll do one, can´t be freeware but we need as much info as we can get on the plane..from you.
Also sent Helldiver a PM asking him for more info, to no avail...lol...
Best regards
Prowler
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Roger that. PM me your email address and I'll send you a couple of PDFs I have;
Squadron Signal SB2C In Action, and SB2C in Detail.

If I can find anymore useful info, I'll forward that as well.

BR's,
mal

[Helldiver]

Prowler, I will be glad to send you what Helldiver stuff I've got. The problem is that's it's on an old computer and I'm not certain if it works or not. I might have to do some hard drive swapping. I beg you patience 'cause I'm old.

[roger-wilco-66]

You guys are amazing.
I'm really looking forward to this. Definitely count me in.

:ernae:
Cheers,
Mark

[mal998]

OK Prowler,

uploading to Yousendit as we speak.

[Prowler1111]

Prowler, I will be glad to send you what Helldiver stuff I've got. The problem is that's it's on an old computer and I'm not certain if it works or not. I might have to do some hard drive swapping. I beg you patience 'cause I'm old.

Rgr that Helldiver


Mal:
Your PM INBOX is full, not admitting new pm´s

Best regards

Prowler
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[PRB]

Ron, check your PM. I sent you a link to a PDF file for the SB2C-5 pilot manual. I also have these books, from which I scan pages. The Squadron Signal one has some good 3-view drawings and othe data.

EDIT - Looks like mal998 already sent you the Squadron Singal one in PDF form. Cool!

[mal998]

Rgr that Helldiver


Mal:
Your PM INBOX is full, not admitting new pm´s

Best regards

Prowler
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OK, emptied out now...I had your email from last time we spoke. those 2 pdf files are now sent.

[Roger]

Nice one Ron:ernae:

Starting to look like we might see a Helldiver for FsX...