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Thread: REQ: FSX SB2C Helldiver

  1. #1

    REQ: FSX SB2C Helldiver

    Hi,

    I know, this is not exactly an aircraft everybody likes, but it would be great if some capable hand could bring a native FSX version of this aircraft into being.

    I'm reading Harold Buells "Dauntless Helldivers" right now, which is an amazing account of his experiences in the pacific war and a mighty good read. I'm a little hyped and inspired toward the planes he flew and described in the book, the SBD Dauntless (we got that, thanks to Vertigo) and later the SB2C Helldiver.

    So: pleeeeeese *whince*


    Cheers,
    Mark

  2. #2
    Oh YES! I'm waiting for her since a long time !
    7140 SB2C were build !!! And what a nice bird !!!!

  3. #3
    Would be a most excellent addition to the FSX stable for sure. Some one... Puhlease

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by CheckSix View Post
    Would be a most excellent addition to the FSX stable for sure. Some one... Puhlease
    Ah, the Helldiver, an aircraft that would be very welcome indeed!

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Bugdani View Post
    Oh YES! I'm waiting for her since a long time !
    7140 SB2C were build !!! And what a nice bird !!!!
    Agree! It is one of the most beautiful aircraft of WWII. Sure it would be a winner for FSX.

  6. #6
    SOH-CM-2014 Quicksand's Avatar
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    I tried to rally support for one a while back, but it kind of fizzled, I think... I would gladly pay for one...:salute:

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Quicksand View Post
    I tried to rally support for one a while back, but it kind of fizzled, I think... I would gladly pay for one...:salute:
    This would be an excellent addition to the Vertigo Studio lineup (that is, after I convince Dean to do a P-39).

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by mal998 View Post
    This would be an excellent addition to the Vertigo Studio lineup (that is, after I convince Dean to do a P-39).

    Yes, sir! :salute:

    Just what I was thinking, tooo.


    cheers,
    Mark

  9. #9
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    Helldiver is a great aircraft the RHAF (Royal Hellenic Air Force, as it was at the time) Operated the Type...

    "Αίεν Υψικρατείν "
    "Between This and Death By Bonga Bonga, You'll Choose Death"

  10. #10
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    ..I jump in, but iŽll need info on it..and well, sorry, but it cant be freeware...anyone?

    Prowler

  11. #11
    SOH Staff .."Cantina Janitor" Daveroo's Avatar
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    prowler...do your usual standard of payware and youll get plenty of takers...

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Prowler1111 View Post
    ..I jump in, but iŽll need info on it..and well, sorry, but it cant be freeware...anyone?

    Prowler
    I would gladly pay for a Helldiver if it's up to par with some of the lastest payware releases. The Helldiver had several different versions including the US Army Air Corps A-25 Shrike, and quite a few different paint schemes. Here are just a few...

    Attachment 9068 Attachment 9066


    Attachment 9065 Attachment 9067

  13. #13

  14. #14
    Mmmmmmmmmm....

    There were reasons it was called "the Beast".

    T

  15. #15
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    "There were reasons it was called "the Beast".
    That name only came after the war when writers were looking for a derogatory name for the aircraft. She was always named the "2 - CEE" by us guys that flew in it. I got it's bad reputation because it grew it's teeth in the heat of battle. The SBD got rid of it's many failings long before the war. It never learned how to fold it's wings or keep up with the fighter cover.
    The only complaint was all the hydraulic leaks but it got my ass home every day, safe and sound. It served right up to the Viet Nam war with the Greek, Italian and French governments.
    If anyone wants to attempt this rather complicated aircraft, I would be more than glad to help. It has been ignored for far too long.
    Would you like to ride in my big green tractor?.

  16. #16
    Ken Stallings
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helldiver View Post
    "There were reasons it was called "the Beast".
    That name only came after the war when writers were looking for a derogatory name for the aircraft. She was always named the "2 - CEE" by us guys that flew in it. I got it's bad reputation because it grew it's teeth in the heat of battle. The SBD got rid of it's many failings long before the war. It never learned how to fold it's wings or keep up with the fighter cover.
    The only complaint was all the hydraulic leaks but it got my ass home every day, safe and sound. It served right up to the Viet Nam war with the Greek, Italian and French governments.
    If anyone wants to attempt this rather complicated aircraft, I would be more than glad to help. It has been ignored for far too long.
    It was also larger and more powerful and that meant it was a bit more risky on carrier operations. But you are right, the big difference is that the pre-war aircraft had the luxury of peace and time to work out their kinks. Like many of the higher performance combat aircraft developed during the war, the luxury of time simply wasn't there. So, these aircraft were released with known issues to work out. Those issues were often worked out by the sweat and blood of the crews who flew them in combat.

    Ken

  17. #17
    Brings to mind the B-26 Marauder which got a bad reputation early on, but ended the war being a particularly effective platform. Again, a airplane which went through development during the war. Helldiver's comments provide context.
    Basic Flying Rules: "Try to stay in the middle of the air. Do not go near the edges of it. The edges of the air can be recognized by the appearance of ground, buildings, sea, trees and interstellar space. It is much more difficult to fly there."

  18. #18
    If only we had a forum member who was a fount of first-hand information on the Helldiver...

    Wait a minute....


  19. #19
    Bill Palmer, a pilot in VB17, on board Bunker Hill, the first squadron to take the SB2C-1 into combat does refer to it as the Beast... He did admit it was not easy to fly, heavy on the controls, but he did enjoy flying it, especially appreciating the extra speed. Curtiss engineers accompanying the squadron into the combat zone were especially helpful in working out the many initial "issues". Many also rans never made it to production, or to combat squadrons. Curtiss persevered, to their credit.

    The Dauntless, as well as some of the Wildcats were small enough to not need to fold their wings. This was both a structural and weight advantage. Folding wings on the later Wildcats permitted more aircraft storage, but the weight penalty was not always appreciated once in the air.

    Ed Hieneman, designer of both the SBD and the A4 Skyhawk had a design philoophy of "simplicate and add lightness". Both were very effective aircraft for their size. The SBD had the lowest per sorte loss rate of any USN aircraft during WWII.

    No matter what it's good and bad points and teething pains, the SB2C's crews did forge it into a usefull and effective weapon.

    Crews have a strong tendency to believe in the plane they are flying, and it's superiority. If you could not somehow believe this how could you possibly take into to the air, or into combat. I have flown a lot of planes, it's a strong sense of My Dog is better than Your Dog....

    Maybe it is.... T

  20. #20
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    "Bill Palmer, a pilot in VB17, on board Bunker Hill, the first squadron to take the SB2C-1 into combat does refer to it as the Beast..."
    Well I don't care if he called it Hop-a Long Cassidy, it was always the "2-Cee" to the rest of us.
    The Dauntless, might have an eight foot advantage in wing span, but if you were ever on an active flight deck you'd appreciate the ability of folding wings. I never heard a single pilot complain about the added weight of the wing fold mechanism, any more than the weight of paint.
    The SBD did it's work until the SB2C came along and established the highest kill of all Japanese shipping. It deserves an equal billing and certainly not the outrageous scorn of writers that weren't even born while the Helldivers were flying.

    Would you like to ride in my big green tractor?.

  21. #21
    Harold Buell described the Helldiver as more difficult and demanding to fly compared to the SBD and "a handfull to new pilots", but he never really complained about it personally. He also called it "the Beast". He actually said that the aircraft was in many points better than the SBD, but in the hands of a not properly trained pilot it was very unforgiving - which took a big and sad toll out of Buells unit when the SB2C was rushed into service too fast. As Helldiver pointed out, pilots had a huge success in bombing ships with it, and Buells stories (and medals...) reflect hat.
    As an interesting side note, the first owner of the aforementioned book in the opening post (I bought it as used) wrote a couple of remarks and his name and rank in the book - by his handwriting I suppose he knew the SB2C first hand - and he hated it.

    One remark says:

    "Take down that blue star in your window
    Replace it with one that is gold
    your son is a helldiver driver
    He'll never be thirty years old"

    The other says:

    "The greatest contribution to aviation was Curtiss stopping the production of aircraft!"

    Just some interesting sidenotes that show how differently people think about the aircraft.

    I personally don't care, it looks mean, it is mean, and I would love to have a nice FSX version of it!
    I'd also like it when the "unforgivingness" of the flight model could be simulated. I like the challange to master it!


    Cheers,
    Mark

  22. #22
    Ken Stallings
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helldiver View Post
    "Bill Palmer, a pilot in VB17, on board Bunker Hill, the first squadron to take the SB2C-1 into combat does refer to it as the Beast..."
    Well I don't care if he called it Hop-a Long Cassidy, it was always the "2-Cee" to the rest of us.
    The Dauntless, might have an eight foot advantage in wing span, but if you were ever on an active flight deck you'd appreciate the ability of folding wings. I never heard a single pilot complain about the added weight of the wing fold mechanism, any more than the weight of paint.
    The SBD did it's work until the SB2C came along and established the highest kill of all Japanese shipping. It deserves an equal billing and certainly not the outrageous scorn of writers that weren't even born while the Helldivers were flying.
    That wasn't some "writer" being cited. It was an SB2C pilot who did the initial operational deployment. I think his first hand experience is worthy of discussion. You also do understand that the forum member who quoted the information is himself a holder of an ATP, acknowledged master of flight dynamics files for FSX, and in no way intended what he wrote to be taken as an insult.

    Come on Helldiver, people are trying to be helpful here. Why must you attack everyone who tries to put things into historical context here?

    Ken

  23. #23
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    I'm sorry Ken, and apologize but sometimes I feel that I'm a lone voice in the wilderness. Vainly trying to set the story straight about the Helldiver while I can. - The plane that everybody hates.
    I have to read such crap as, "The greatest contribution to aviation was Curtiss stopping the production of aircraft!"
    The SB2C did not lead to Curtiss getting out of the aircraft business. It was the largest producer of aircraft in WWII and did not have the time or resources to devote to research in jet aircraft and so sold the aircraft division to North American Aviation. It was a business decision and the Helldiver had nothing to do with it.
    Why does the US Naval Museum in Pensacola have four SBD on view but not a single SB2C? They have a screwed view of the war in the Pacific.
    As far as beng difficult to fly, military airplanes are not designed for comfortable flying. You think a SNJ is easy? Today's fighter aircraft are so unmanageable that they have to flown by computer.
    But suffice to say that we lost six F6-Fs four F4-Us one TBF and one SB2C on one cruise. The Helldiver got lost when the new signal officer launched the plane just when the bow was going down.
    So I'm sorry if I've hurt some feelings here. I'm just trying set things straight. In a couple of years it won't matter to me.

    Would you like to ride in my big green tractor?.

  24. #24
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    My deepest thanks to Roger-Wilco 66 for proposing that somebody do the Helldiver. The only one that has done the gunners ring right was Piglet in his Kingfisher. In theory we could hydraulically raise it up 10 inches. But putting your head out in a 200 plus MPH airstream is not recommended. The turtleback was lowered by the same wobble pump. The pilots were not too happy since the turbulence ruined their control over the rudder and ailerons. In addition, there were two flaps on the canopy. I think to help when shipping the guns while lowering the canopy.
    Principally the Aircrewmans activitues were devoted to the radar, radios, and plotting where we were relative to the carrier.
    Oh, and to keep the pilot awake.
    Would you like to ride in my big green tractor?.

  25. #25
    It is indeed unfortunate what happens to some aircraft designs, often unwarranted. I'm afraid that in this business though, a subject has to have another "quality" to make the cut and that's commercial appeal.

    We have often looked at the the "Helldiver" as a subject but don't really have enough confidence in the market to commit to making one. If somebody could guarantee that it would be as popular as say a Hellcat or P38, we'd be pushing those vertices right now, believe me.

    There are other subjects that fall into the same category - the Fairey Battle, the Barracuda, the Albacore and Skua and scores more.

    Usually forgotten heroes, passed over for the more glamourous "stars" like the Spitfire, P51, Hellcat and P38.

    It would seem that the "Helldiver" or "2CEE" is going to remain a subject for freeware enthusiasts. Nothing wrong in that, we just need a volunteer...

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