Engine out at night; road or fields?

[tigisfat]

[QUOTE=Snuffy;388302]The U.S. Highway system was designed or at least mandated by the federal government to be able to serve as emergency landing strips if necessary.

Therefore, I take the Highway.[/QUOTE]
The scenario does say that it's not a major highway, so it's not going to be part of the US highway system. Do you still choose it?

[tigisfat]

I'm somewhat surprised that so many people picked the highway.


Personally, I like the answer about choosing a field by the highway.

[Roadburner440]

I think it would be a pretty tricky decision.. if the highway is not lighted I think you would be better off to ditch in an open field. Less chance of people being in the field than the highway. Eitherway if it is just a simple rural 2 lane highway you might strike a power pole/line.. I think I will take my chances with the possible stray tree or so in a field. Especially in a Cessna since at least it has some gliding capabilities even without engine power. Hopefully I would of had enough airspeed/altitude to be able to pick the clearest part of the field to land in. Your first obligation as pilot in command (even of a Cessna) is to ensure the safety of people/structures on the ground and then your aircraft/yourself. That is what made the debate about the guy landing on the jogger on the beach a few weeks back so interesting.. I personally say he should of ditched it in the water, but I would say without hotels and such around there would be a reasonable expectation of there not being anyone on the beach. I think all of us would react differently if placed in the similar situation. I know I would be having to fight the urge to preserve my own hide first and foremost that is for sure. Probably why I am not a real pilot.

[tigisfat]

[QUOTE=Roadburner440;388397]I think it would be a pretty tricky decision.. if the highway is not lighted I think you would be better off to ditch in an open field. Less chance of people being in the field than the highway. Eitherway if it is just a simple rural 2 lane highway you might strike a power pole/line.. I think I will take my chances with the possible stray tree or so in a field. Especially in a Cessna since at least it has some gliding capabilities even without engine power. Hopefully I would of had enough airspeed/altitude to be able to pick the clearest part of the field to land in. Your first obligation as pilot in command (even of a Cessna) is to ensure the safety of people/structures on the ground and then your aircraft/yourself. That is what made the debate about the guy landing on the jogger on the beach a few weeks back so interesting.. I personally say he should of ditched it in the water, but I would say without hotels and such around there would be a reasonable expectation of there not being anyone on the beach. I think all of us would react differently if placed in the similar situation. I know I would be having to fight the urge to preserve my own hide first and foremost that is for sure. Probably why I am not a real pilot.[/QUOTE]

Don't sell yourself short. Your approach to reasoning is the substance that aeronautical decision making (ADM) is made of. It's not as simple as always saying one is better than the other, that's why I have tried to include a story to answer a few questions with these two threads.

Sometimes there is a right and wrong answer, such as when 2 miles away from an airport at 4,000 feet (easy gliding distance) but instead you choose to land in a playground at recess because it's closer.

What's most celebrated is the outcome, not the decision. We practice ADm because the best decision, made in a timely manner, statistically has the best effect on the outcome. Many of our aviation heroes got lucky, such as Chesley Sullenberger. He didn't follow the right procedures that might have saved the aircraft, could've made several different airports (one with no risk to innocents, and still put it down in an icy river in January. Why is he a hero? because everyone lived.

[GT182]

Gotta go with Roadburner's reasoning. Especially on a moonless night, your landing lights will light your way. Where as with a highway landing they won't help you see obstacles like overhead wires. If it's a 2 lane highway, you're pretty much scrod. You're more likely to survive a field landing.... day or night.

Years ago the chief pilot for the FBO I worked for had to make an emergency landing with a 206 into a field.... broad daylight. He was asked why he didn't use the highway near by. His answer... too confined and too dangerous, with too many unknowns to figure out with too little time. BTW, he was an ex Air Force pilot. ;)

[Ken Stallings]

[QUOTE=tigisfat;387638]It's a moonless winter night over middle America, and you're on a long cross country by yourself in a Cessna 172. Just the same as last time, your engine has died and there's no restarting it. You set up the aircraft for best glide and set about finding your engine-out landing spot. Below you is an expanse of black, and the occasional orange light at a farmhouse. A few miles away is a highway. It's clearly not a major one, but there are occasional light poles. It's just enough to let you know it's there. The problem with landing there is the lightpoles and unknown wires you're sure cross the road and run along side of it. Being the midwest, you know there are fields. You're sure that once you were to glide lower you could discern a few, but barely. The condition of them will be unknown until you're in the flare, and if you're lucky there won't be any fences or large rocks in it. You don't even know what's in the fields, it could be corn or something bigger. By the time you see any obstacles, it could be too late because you can't go around.

[SIZE=4][COLOR=red][B]So what's the verdict? You have to choose to find a field or land on the highway. Please explain yourself.[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]


[SIZE=3][COLOR=blue]This time, I'll "DM" the conversation. If you require additional information or have questions, I'll give you an answer to eliminate variables. This is a fixed scenario.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

The FAA does teach the correct answer, but not all agree with it. There is no right or wrong answer here, I just want to start the discussion and see what some would do, real world pilot or not. The poll allows everyone to view your opinion.[/QUOTE]

Everything in aviation is preceeded with the answer, "It depends."

However, I will normally choose the highway, and I disagree with your statement about crossing telephone and power wires. In fact, there is nothing unpredictable about this.

Power and telephone companies are not wasteful with their resources. They don't erect power lines to nowhere and ditto phone lines. They are wired to peoples' homes and businesses.

In daytime, this makes the decision entirely easy. At night it comes down to whether someone has a home or business totally devoid of all lights at night and it's a moonless night and you cannot possibly see the structures. This is entirely rare in the United States.

So, one of the first rules I learned applies.

You land in between all lights on either side of the road.

If you can perceive crossing roads, then you land in between those also.

Power lines and phone lines run parallel to the road until the line needs to branch across the road to reach a home or business on the other side of the road. Likewise they branch out to go down a crossing road to service homes and businesses located elsewhere. Next time you are traveling on a highway in a rural area, check this out for yourself and note how this is true.

If you follow these two rules, then the odds of success are better than landing dark in a presumed open field. Because fields often aren't open. They often contain furrowed fields, small fences chopping up a large field into several smaller ones, ditches for irrigation of flood control, or a myriad of other hard to see obstructions that could ruin your efforts.

Also, a Cessna 172 is a high wing airplane and so consequently the wings are about a foot or two higher than nearly all traffic signs on the side of the road. And even if not, you land on the centerline of the road and take your chances dinging the wings.

For me, this is a no-brainer.

Cheers,

Ken

[pied]

I have to agree with Ken on the places that wires cross roads.... Especially in rural areas the power/telephone lines are designed by a cost conscious engineer.

I was taught a third option however, since almost all of my flight experience was in Florida. My first instructor, a grizzled ex Air Force transport pilot told me, an impressionable 16 year old kid, that at night in a single engine Cessna with the engine out my job was to crash land in the darkest area I could see. That was most likely a lake and therefore the only potential fatality was the pilot....

Now I'd take the road with a full flaps, minimum airspeed pancake!

Pied

[tigisfat]

[QUOTE=pied;389804]I have to agree with Ken on the places that wires cross roads.... Especially in rural areas the power/telephone lines are designed by a cost conscious engineer.

I was taught a third option however, since almost all of my flight experience was in Florida. My first instructor, a grizzled ex Air Force transport pilot told me, an impressionable 16 year old kid, that at night in a single engine Cessna with the engine out my job was to crash land in the darkest area I could see. That was most likely a lake and therefore the only potential fatality was the pilot....

Now I'd take the road with a full flaps, minimum airspeed pancake!

Pied[/QUOTE]

I have to disagree. Of course you must minimize exposing those on the ground to undue risk, but there's no reason why you can't save yourself and the aircraft to fly again another day. It's tragic when someone dies, but engine out landings happen every day. That's why we train from day one for them and there's no reason why risks can't be minimized on the fly. You shouldn't assume you're a goner, especially in a trainer like a Cessna 172.

[viking3]

I went for the field in that if it is snow-covered the snow will lessen the impact(maybe:kilroy:) or if not deep then the ground will possibly be frozen giving half decent support for the gear in a landing:running:. I only avoided the road because of wires and possible traffic.

Regards, Rob:ernae:

[robert41]

I would try for the highway. An open field is very rough, with clumps of dirt and ditches, hard enough to drive across let alone land on. Any power lines would be my last concern, hope there are no cars or trucks on the road.

[magoo]

Either country road or field/clearing of unknown quality will probably tear up the plane. Land on the road, you'll probably be found pdq.

In the field, (clearing, lake, pond, clearcut, light scrub....etc,etc....) How long before some one sees you? You may survive the landing, but not the length of exposure if you're injured and can't move.

My option is simply not to fly cross country after dark in a single. Nothing so important it can't wait for arrival tommorrow afternoon.

Now....who comes with a parachute attached to the whole plane..? Is that Cirrus...? Hmmm... a whole new way to get into it up to the armpits.....

[exc141ac]

Sully chose the Hudson.

You pick the biggest, most open spot that you think you can reach.

Luck plays a part.

Sometimes the only choices left are all bad.

[cheezyflier]

[QUOTE=exc141ac;390036]Sully chose the Hudson.

You pick the biggest, most open spot that you think you can reach.

Luck plays a part.

Sometimes the only choices left are all bad.[/QUOTE]

sully got extrememly lucky. you can't count on luck. he is thought of as a hero because everyone lived. had just one or two people died, you can be sure they would have nailed him to the wall.

[tigisfat]

[QUOTE=cheezyflier;390045]sully got extrememly lucky. you can't count on luck. he is thought of as a hero because everyone lived. had just one or two people died, you can be sure they would have nailed him to the wall.[/QUOTE]


Yup. Not only because he probably could've kept the engines alive, but also because he coulda made it back to Newark just fine and mostly over water too.

[Ken Stallings]

[QUOTE=tigisfat;389810]I have to disagree. Of course you must minimize exposing those on the ground to undue risk, but there's no reason why you can't save yourself and the aircraft to fly again another day. It's tragic when someone dies, but engine out landings happen every day. That's why we train from day one for them and there's no reason why risks can't be minimized on the fly. You shouldn't assume you're a goner, especially in a trainer like a Cessna 172.[/QUOTE]

Every day in the form of gliders! Indeed, it isn't a death sentence! Even if the odds are truly working against you overtime and you hit a powerline crossing the road, the plane will either slice it and you'll hit the ground hard from about thirty feet, or you will slice it and land anyway normally, or you will get tangled up in it and hang upside down. Power company just turns off the power and get a cherry picker to come get you.

If the last option is your fate, just don't let some numbnuts try to climb up to help you before the power company turns off the power! He'll likely connect to the ground and electrocute himself to death and perhaps take you with him!

Cheers,

Ken