Luftwaffe Cannon Ordnance

[O-1Driver]

Does anyone have any good links for information concerning Luftwaffe cannon shells that self destructed in flight or were proximity in nature. What I am looking for is accurate research on how the shells worked, size and color of the explosion and impact damage.

Also if there were different sizes like 20mm 40mm etc it will help greatly.

I think a long time ago someone asked about this here on the forum.

Thanks for your help

Steve

[O-1Driver]

I have been unable to find much information on these cannon shells but I believe they were shells that self destructed (exploded) in flight after a time and or upon impact with another aircraft. I do not think they were armed with proximity fuses but could be wrong.

Thanks Again

Steve

[O-1Driver]

A couple of references but no hard data yet.

Steve
.................................................. ...............................................
Shortly thereafter, the 324th Squadron tail gunners saw what they at first believed to be the over-due American fighter escorts, finally approaching from out of the sun at six o'clock level. It soon became obvious the planes were the German fighters coming back at them. While still out of range of the bomber's guns, the fighters began firing 20-mm cannon shells with timed fuses into the 324th formation. Puffs of white smoke from exploding shells appeared within the formation, and shells began hitting a number of planes. In flights of 2,3 and 5 abreast, the fighters caught up with and barreled into the 324th Squadron formation. A few of the fighters slid in close and under the bombers, lowering their flaps briefly and "walking their rudders" (swinging the wings from side to side), spraying cannon and machine gun fire into the underside of the bombers. Just before stalling out, the German fighter pilots throttled forward, raised their flaps and went on through the formation, rolling inverted. They flew downward through the Lead and Low Squadrons, firing as they went. The fighters kept on going--only one pass was made through the 91st formation.
.................................................. ...............................................

Another Link

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/wea...nons-4973.html

The timed fuses prevented the shells from landing on the German towns and factories they were protecting.

[O-1Driver]

Finally some hard data:

http://janes-store.ihs.com/pdf/Ammun...ook-2008-9.pdf

The air to air rounds had fuse delays anywhere from 3 to 5 seconds depending on gun muzzle velocity and size of shell.

and,

[jaycee]

http://www.xs4all.nl/~robdebie/me163/weapons15.htm

http://www.me109.net/servlet/the-86/...42-20mm/Detail Click on detail description


http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/wea...ell-12821.html

You may have seen these already.You could google "Minengeschoss"

[O-1Driver]

Thanks jaycee, good links.

To my knowledge we do not have a FW190 A-8/R8 Sturmbock armed with only 30mm cannon but I am going to ask Rob to take our ETO FW 190-8 and see if we can add the new 20mm cannon with self destruct fuze. We may need a new skin for it as a Home Defense fighter. The new timed fuse 20mm cannon employs both a new explode and air effect along with a "track" effect which will produce an effect with a timed delay to produce a simple puff and small explosion if you miss the target. It will take some time to match up the effect delay with the muzzle velocity of the gun. The explode effect is more simple and easy to do.

We will also have a new spit with .303 incendiaries and a P-47 armed with 50 cal incendiaries. The Spit and P-47 will have a mixture of guns one shooting ball ammo with no impact flash (new guns) and the other gun loaded with incendiaries that do have an impact flash. There will be four new guns for the spit and P-47. Currently all of our planes produce a yellow impact flash when they shoot regardless of the ammo they are loaded with. Ball ammunition should not produce the yellow flashes you currently see on all of our CFS 3 aircraft. The refitted aircraft will be loaded half and half and the incendiaries will produce a orange/red flash when they impact. The timed fuse 20mm will pruduce a larger flash (color TBD) and improved damage model.

All will be released in October with the update.

Thanks

Steve

[O-1Driver]

FW190 A-8/R8 Sturmbock armed with 30mm cannon

[jaycee]

I have been thinking of the sturmbock lately, and thought of doing some sort of pylon loadout for the blinkers, i have not attempted glazing yet in gmax, i am going to attempt this sometime in the future,

[dancat]

have a A8/R8 model in my collection!

[O-1Driver]

have a A8/R8 model in my collection!

That is one beautiful bird. As soon as we have the new cannon shell working on the ETO FW-190 I will send it to you to look over and fly. Then if you like the new cannon shell and effects we can build a 30mm gun in addition to the 20mm that will be on the ETO Fw-190-8. You are welcome to use any of the new guns and effects that will be coming out.

The FW with the 30mm cannon will be a real Bomber Killer for sure.

Thanks

Steve

[von Bek]

You realise of course that the sturmbock carried a lot of extra armour around the cockpit?

The damage model and aircraft weight would need to be revised for true accuracy. Flight performance was quite seriously affected - to the point that Sturmbocks had to be escorted to the target by standard fighters. Having said that, the old Aviation History Fw190A8 model is a Sturmbock and with a little tweak to the weapon loadout can be modified quite nicely. All that is necessary is to swap the outer pair of MG151/20 s for MK108s with a 60 round ammo belt (yes, 30mm ammo is heavy!!).

The Best Source Book for ww2 aircraft guns is 'Flying Guns, World War II' by Anthony G Williams and Dr. Emmanuel Gustin.

You might find this useful too...

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

[O-1Driver]

[QUOTE=von Bek;194935]You realise of course that the sturmbock carried a lot of extra armour around the cockpit?

The damage model and aircraft weight would need to be revised for true accuracy. Flight performance was quite seriously affected - to the point that Sturmbocks had to be escorted to the target by standard fighters. Having said that, the old Aviation History Fw190A8 model is a Sturmbock and with a little tweak to the weapon loadout can be modified quite nicely. All that is necessary is to swap the outer pair of MG151/20 s for MK108s with a 60 round ammo belt (yes, 30mm ammo is heavy!!).

The Best Source Book for ww2 aircraft guns is 'Flying Guns, World War II' by Anthony G Williams and Dr. Emmanuel Gustin.

You might find this useful too...

VB,

Thanks for that information and link. It was most definately a heavily modified aircraft and would make a great model and addition.

Steve

[NachtPiloten]

You might find this useful too...

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm[/QUOTE]


I am going to redo my he/i me rounds in both 20/30mm to reflect the information in this table. Thanks!

[von Bek]

I am going to redo my he/i me rounds in both 20/30mm to reflect the information in this table. Thanks!

Glad you found it useful. When you look at Fw190 weapon loadouts, check the number of rounds available for the MG17s in the upper cowling. The original MS Fw190 only had about half the proper ammo load and later clones copied the mistake. I don't remember the proper number now but I know its a lot more than the stock aircraft has. When you correct this ammo load, the extra weight is noticeable when climbing to the target.

Once you add armour and 30mm MK108s in the wings, the weight of the aircraft and consequently the wing loadings are quite different from the flight characteristics of the A3 and A4 models that were so nice to fly. The A8/R8 is hard work but line something up in front of the guns and its very satisfying

Gun harmonisation is an issue too. The MG17, MG151/20 and MK108 all have very different trajectories.

[OldCrow]

One of my favorite sites about WWII guns&ammo=
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm