Prepar3D to supplement Real Pilot Training?

**codeseven** · August 21st, 2016, 10:39

I will be entering Flight School and wanted to know if a Flight Sim in 2016 can 'realistically' be used to help with getting my Pilors License. Having previously dabbled in flight sims many years ago, the state of sims, computers, yokes, ticks, pedals, ect, left much to be desired as far as realism and certainly fell short in terms of use for actual training.

I wanted to post this question around (FSX, XPlane) to get a feel for what a particular sims enthusiasts would have to say.

So, can Prepar3D be used to supplement real pilot training? Have any of you used Prepar3D for that purpose? If not Prepar3D, then which other flight sim?

Thanks!

**roger-wilco-66** · August 21st, 2016, 12:14

I definitely think this is possible. Depending on how far you want to go, you can even simulate a Cessna 172 (A2A) quite closely, together with the Cessna Saitek/Madcatz control systems. If you have an addon like FS Global Real weather (or others) you have a good weather system, so you can train making full flight preparations and commence the flight. ATC is not too realistic, but basically works. You also can train to fly race track patterns along VOR radials or can train to properly intercept them, or if you want to go modern you can train to use GPS systems for navigation. If you have a good scenery with accurate landmarks, you can train dead reckoning for VFR navigation.

Part of learning to fly is to endlessly shoot touch and go landings at your flight school's airfield. You constantly have to reconfigure the aircrafts power settings, flaps, carb heating (if it has), trim or other settings. This is nice to train in the sim if you have the same aircraft as in reality - but only if you strictly stick to the textbook.

I think the downside of training on a simulator without someone looking over your shoulder is that you can adapt to bad, non-existing or sloppy procedures. You have to be very self critical when you do that and have a good plan. When I do self training flights I have a list next to me on a clipboard and each time I catch myself doing something out of the planned context, or something questionable or plain wrong I pause and note it to review it later. If you expose a lack of understanding on something during your sim training, you probably have a good question to adress to your flight instructor or review your training material.

I don't have a current PPL license anymore, but I try to train regularly what I once learned, it's fun and who knows, maybe I'll become active one day again!

Cheers,
Mark

**Mach3DS** · August 21st, 2016, 13:45

It can definitely simulate your instrument training with great accuracy. The PTS standards are such that you'll not want to develop any "bad habits" in the sim while trying to do the same maneuvers you're doing in the realnthing. Xcountry flight planning for sure. Depending on the aircraft you are flying. You can simate realistic fuel burn you can definitely simulate that type of flying.

**codeseven** · August 21st, 2016, 17:59

Thanks guys.

I definitely know there is no substitute for actual, hands on flying, but I'm sure there could be other useful aspects of flight sims that could be of benefit, Instrument flying being one of them.

It was pointed out to me that Prepar3D was developed for flight training, that should make it a plus over say, FSX or X-Plane. I agree however that some of the fun of flight sims is the non-realistic fun flying you can get away with that does not translate into real world flight. That's where you'd have to be smart enough to recognize fact from fiction, at least while in learning mode

**Mach3DS** · August 21st, 2016, 19:48

The tough part about a home flight simulator is the sight picture. If you just don't have the same sight picture as you get in the real aircraft even with something like track IR, moving your head around, peripheral vision, the sim just doesn't simulate the real world flying experience no matter how good it is. the movement you feel in your seat as the aircraft moves is just not translated in flight simulator. However those things aside, anything data driven, is basically (or can be) spot on. So things like instrument training, approaches, xcountry flying, dead reckoning, pilotage...anything that's not a specific maneuver. Im not saying you CAN'T learn how to perform the maneuver in the sim. Im saying that you SHOULD NOT learn a maneuver for application in real world flight training by using the home flight sim. Things like slow flight, power on and off stalls, spins, can definitely be practiced in the sim no problem because of the nature of the maneuver, very straight forward, to perform or recover from in static and dynamically stable GA aircraft. However th I ng like S turns, lazy 8s, chandelles, 8s on pylons...I find are much more difficult in sim and more frustrating to perform because of the excessive situational awareness that is needed. For example. With 8s on pylons I can feel the aircraft climbing before I see the movement translating into my visual picture on the wing and I can compensate for it. Once you've learned it, know it and can do it in your sleep, then the sim becomes a real tool for proficiency. As you can easily identify issues in your flying. Just my POV.

**codeseven** · August 21st, 2016, 19:55

Originally Posted by 000rick000

The tough part about a home flight simulator is the sight picture. If you just don't have the same sight picture as you get in the real aircraft even with something like track IR, moving your head around, peripheral vision, the sim just doesn't simulate the real world flying experience no matter how good it is. the movement you feel in your seat as the aircraft moves is just not translated in flight simulator. However those things aside, anything data driven, is basically (or can be) spot on. So things like instrument training, approaches, xcountry flying, dead reckoning, pilotage...anything that's not a specific maneuver. Im not saying you CAN'T learn how to perform the maneuver in the sim. Im saying that you SHOULD NOT learn a maneuver for application in real world flight training by using the home flight sim. Things like slow flight, power on and off stalls, spins, can definitely be practiced in the sim no problem because of the nature of the maneuver, very straight forward, to perform or recover from in static and dynamically stable GA aircraft. However th I ng like S turns, lazy 8s, chandelles, 8s on pylons...I find are much more difficult in sim and more frustrating to perform because of the excessive situational awareness that is needed. For example. With 8s on pylons I can feel the aircraft climbing before I see the movement translating into my visual picture on the wing and I can compensate for it. Once you've learned it, know it and can do it in your sleep, then the sim becomes a real tool for proficiency. As you can easily identify issues in your flying. Just my POV.

Good points, I totally agree, thanks.

**zswobbie1** · August 22nd, 2016, 02:38

Something to bear in mind is that your home yoke & pedals are 'lifeless' & their movement is far different from real flight.

***jmig*** · August 22nd, 2016, 06:18

I am involved with a organization called Virtual Flight Academy. VFA is a non-profit organization that is working with the Navy and Air Force to try and help pre-pilot training students. VFA has enlisted the services of retired pilots to help the young pilot students. As such, I have had the opportunity to talk to several current USAF flight instructors, and twice fly the T-6 simulator.

We have been developing a list of what we believe we can do with these students to help prepare them for the real aircraft flights. The consensus is that we can make them more comfortable in the cockpit by helping them learn the checklists, controls, and general flow of flying. In test cases we have taken a student up in Prepar3D and the T-6 via multiplayer. The VIP takes the student through the checklists and start up procedures. He then allows the student to take off and fly the same departures he will be flying at his training base. Radio communications and terminology are practiced.

Any maneuvers are primarily designed to teach the proper airspeeds, attitudes, and safety clearance checks. In other words, we are trying to get the student to start thinking about flying the military way. We want him or her to be comfortable with the radio calls and terminology, checklist procedures, and knowing how to fly departure and recovery procedures, etc.

We are not trying to teach the student how to fly the airplane. As 000rick000 mentioned above, much of learning to fly is "seat of the pants" or "getting the picture." While I can tell a student where on his windshield the horizon should be while rolling off the perch into final, until you have done it in the real airplane, you will not really know it. It is more than seeing it on a monitor. It is the feeling your body senses as the airplane changes speed and starts to descend. Too much, too little, or just right, a pilot can feel that through his senses of hearing, touch and inner-ear.

Landing is especially critical with the picture. When you land you use your peripheral vision to get a picture of where you want to be, attitude wise and height above the runway. A local CFI once told me he tells people to not to land computer simulator (games) while learning to fly. The main reason is the "picture."

So, while a flight simulator computer program can help you in learning to fly, it will not teach you how to fly. I often smile inward when someone tells me he thinks (it is always males) he could land an airliner if the pilots were become incapacitated because he has flown airliner simulators. I just hope I am not on that airplane when he attempts this real world landing. Simulators can't simulate the "pucker factor."

**codeseven** · August 22nd, 2016, 07:39

Originally Posted by jmig

I am involved with a organization called Virtual Flight Academy. VFA is a non-profit organization that is working with the Navy and Air Force to try and help pre-pilot training students. VFA has enlisted the services of retired pilots to help the young pilot students. As such, I have had the opportunity to talk to several current USAF flight instructors, and twice fly the T-6 simulator.

We have been developing a list of what we believe we can do with these students to help prepare them for the real aircraft flights. The consensus is that we can make them more comfortable in the cockpit by helping them learn the checklists, controls, and general flow of flying. In test cases we have taken a student up in Prepar3D and the T-6 via multiplayer. The VIP takes the student through the checklists and start up procedures. He then allows the student to take off and fly the same departures he will be flying at his training base. Radio communications and terminology are practiced.

Any maneuvers are primarily designed to teach the proper airspeeds, attitudes, and safety clearance checks. In other words, we are trying to get the student to start thinking about flying the military way. We want him or her to be comfortable with the radio calls and terminology, checklist procedures, and knowing how to fly departure and recovery procedures, etc.

We are not trying to teach the student how to fly the airplane. As 000rick000 mentioned above, much of learning to fly is "seat of the pants" or "getting the picture." While I can tell a student where on his windshield the horizon should be while rolling off the perch into final, until you have done it in the real airplane, you will not really know it. It is more than seeing it on a monitor. It is the feeling your body senses as the airplane changes speed and starts to descend. Too much, too little, or just right, a pilot can feel that through his senses of hearing, touch and inner-ear.

Landing is especially critical with the picture. When you land you use your peripheral vision to get a picture of where you want to be, attitude wise and height above the runway. A local CFI once told me he tells people to not to land computer simulator (games) while learning to fly. The main reason is the "picture."

So, while a flight simulator computer program can help you in learning to fly, it will not teach you how to fly. I often smile inward when someone tells me he thinks (it is always males) he could land an airliner if the pilots were become incapacitated because he has flown airliner simulators. I just hope I am not on that airplane when he attempts this real world landing. Simulators can't simulate the "pucker factor."

Excellent post John, well put.

**mig21bis** · August 22nd, 2016, 09:01

codeseven, Rick and John have captured just about everything to consider. Thanks to John, I got pulled into the VFA program too - and had a great time working with him and others (including a current USAF IP) to create the program. Aircraft, environment, and supporting materials.

I think I can sum up our combined conclusion: these simulators (FSX and P3D specifically, as that's what we're using at VFA) can be great "procedure trainers". Provided the panel, systems and materials you use are an exact match with your real-world equivalents, you can use the sim to become very good at all of the procedures listed by John. If not an exact match, though, you risk "negative training". Hopefully, you are training on a common aircraft that many companies have produced sim models for - and that one of those is the exact match you need. If not, it may be possible to recode parts of the panel to match what you need.

The sim can go a little farther than our old USAF static procedure trainers, but maybe think of it as performing the same function. Find an identical cockpit to the plane you are flying IRL, and run the checklist / EP's until you know them like the back of your hand. Within limits, you can practice local procedures until they are memorized. And using the sim to pre-fly a planned x-country can be way better than our old "chair flying" prep.

Lastly: have you checked out PilotEdge? Potentially very helpful by integrating live ATC into your sim training, with true paid professional controllers.

Above all, best of success to you in pursuing your wings.

**Stickshaker** · August 22nd, 2016, 09:58

Excellent points have been made, but I am wondering about two things:
- What difference does the new generation of VR gear make? I flew ultralight aircraft a long time ago and have flown in a variety of aircraft, and my Oculus Rift really makes me feel like I am in an aircraft. I flew in a dual-control P-51D Mustang warbird a month ago and the take-off and flight in the DCS World Mustang were eerily realistic. Yes, I miss the motion cues, but it struck me in the real plane how little these cues were of use to me when having to maintain altitude. Even if I did not consciously feel any movement, I had difficulty keeping the VSI at zero.
- If somebody can learn to fly a simulated aircraft well, would this mean that he/she can learn to fly the real aircraft well also? Or, conversely, if someone cannot get to make good landings (for example) in the sim, does this mean that real flying will also be a challenge for this person? So I am not asking whether a real aircraft is similar to a sim aircraft, but whether the character and/or difficulty level of the tasks required to perform is similar

**Mach3DS** · August 22nd, 2016, 11:36

Originally Posted by Stickshaker

Excellent points have been made, but I am wondering about two things:
- What difference does the new generation of VR gear make? I flew ultralight aircraft a long time ago and have flown in a variety of aircraft, and my Oculus Rift really makes me feel like I am in an aircraft. I flew in a dual-control P-51D Mustang warbird a month ago and the take-off and flight in the DCS World Mustang were eerily realistic. Yes, I miss the motion cues, but it struck me in the real plane how little these cues were of use to me when having to maintain altitude. Even if I did not consciously feel any movement, I had difficulty keeping the VSI at zero.
- If somebody can learn to fly a simulated aircraft well, would this mean that he/she can learn to fly the real aircraft well also? Or, conversely, if someone cannot get to make good landings (for example) in the sim, does this mean that real flying will also be a challenge for this person? So I am not asking whether a real aircraft is similar to a sim aircraft, but whether the character and/or difficulty level of the tasks required to perform is similar

I think you can learn to perform any type of flight or maneuver in the sim. But it's application will only get you so far in real life. Because of the reasons mentioned previously. Certain compensations must be made in order to perform the maneuvers in sim. One being altitude gain/loss isn't felt so you're relying on visual cues from the altimeter. Another thing ive noticed that isn't modelled strictly well enough is the center of pressure movement with flap deployment/retraction and the associated rotation...something else felt is the turbulent air. Nothing like flying an instrument approach by hand and flight that constant nagging summer heat or small amounts of shear...not represented well at all in the sim. So while you may be able to fly the plane based on simulated experience, you wouldn't be very good at it...(unless you have real flying experience already with the associated knowledge base)...you would however, likely have a much shallower learning curve once in the real thjng. Which i think is the point of using a sim.

Just as a side note, you'd be surprised how perfectly competent engineers, lawyers doctors etc. Can't tell left from right when flying in real life for the first time. "Right rudder, add right rudder....RIGHT rudder....I have the controls!"

***jmig*** · August 22nd, 2016, 12:50

Originally Posted by 000rick000

Just as a side note, you'd be surprised how perfectly competent engineers, lawyers doctors etc. Can't tell left from right when flying in real life for the first time. "Right rudder, add right rudder....RIGHT rudder....I have the controls!"

I can't tell you how many times in pilot training I heard, "The other right." I have know instructors who claimed to have made a student hold something in their free hand to help remember Right from Left.

**coolguy3** · August 23rd, 2016, 08:41

Redbird's FTDs use P3D as their simulator base....my flight school/FBO has one of their LD trainers - http://simulators.redbirdflight.com/products/ld. These are FAA certified for simulator training, so P3D can/is indeed used in flight schools. (I think the version is still 1.4 at my FBO....they may have updated it to the current 3.3.5 version by now.)

**Mach3DS** · August 23rd, 2016, 10:42

Originally Posted by coolguy3

Redbird's FTDs use P3D as their simulator base....my flight school/FBO has one of their LD trainers - http://simulators.redbirdflight.com/products/ld. These are FAA certified for simulator training, so P3D can/is indeed used in flight schools. (I think the version is still 1.4 at my FBO....they may have updated it to the current 3.3.5 version by now.)

For those who are interested and may not know, an FTD is a Flight Training Device, and not classified an actual "Simulator". In an exact simulator you can practice 100% to training standards and then get into the real aircraft as if you had previously flown it. This is how all full scale simulators are rated. They are precise copies of their real world counterpart, and if you can do it in the real thing, it can be done in the Sim or visa versa. So for example after training for the airlines, generally an FO's first flight in the aircraft is their first revenue flight as well.

**coolguy3** · August 23rd, 2016, 11:34

Originally Posted by 000rick000

For those who are interested and may not know, an FTD is a Flight Training Device, and not classified an actual "Simulator". In an exact simulator you can practice 100% to training standards and then get into the real aircraft as if you had previously flown it. This is how all full scale simulators are rated. They are precise copies of their real world counterpart, and if you can do it in the real thing, it can be done in the Sim or visa versa. So for example after training for the airlines, generally an FO's first flight in the aircraft is their first revenue flight as well.

Yes, you're right, and Redbird also builds full motion/full feature simulators, utilizing P3D as their base - http://simulators.redbirdflight.com/...pic/simulators.

In a related topic - Several years ago I had the opportunity to experience "flying" Level D Boeing 717-200 and 737-700/800 simulators at Alteon Training down in Long Beach, (right next to KLGB)...then Boeing came and took those sims up to Washington State. They were regularly used for airline crew training/recurrent training...now those pilots based here in SoCal have to fly to some other location away from home.

**Mach3DS** · August 23rd, 2016, 11:50

Cool. So really this isn't a discussion so much about whether or not the sim is robust enough (it is), it's whether you have the hardware to give yourself the total flying experience. If you do, then you'll be able to pull off the training. The sim is definitely up for the task...but you definitely need the appropriate hardware to interface with. (Full motion sim). So as long as the coded simulation is good enough you could actually train. For your generic home sim guy/gal, it's really close...I wouldn't use it at home to train for actual real world application, outside of instrument flying. But it's very close. As I think we're all in agreement with.

***Victory103*** · August 23rd, 2016, 18:39

I wanted to see if a thread developed over here as well as the FSX forums. Got to check out a Redbird AMS today at work, well the initial sim set up, and found out it used P3D. I am not sure why we have one as we generally always go to CAE or FSI for recurrent in the "real" full motion sims. Agree with all as well as the other thread, IFR procedures and cockpit flows.

**roger-wilco-66** · August 23rd, 2016, 21:52

Lockheed Martin themselves showed a jet trainer simulator for their TF-50A at Oshkosh a few weeks ago. It is based on P3D, and I talked with the LM staff about it.

The screen configuration was different from the image below though, it had three large panels.

**codeseven** · August 24th, 2016, 12:20

Originally Posted by Victory103

I wanted to see if a thread developed over here as well as the FSX forums. Got to check out a Redbird AMS today at work, well the initial sim set up, and found out it used P3D. I am not sure why we have one as we generally always go to CAE or FSI for recurrent in the "real" full motion sims. Agree with all as well as the other thread, IFR procedures and cockpit flows.

Thanks guys.

As Victory103 pointed out, I purposely posted the same question in several forums, FSX, Prepar3D and X-Plane, in hopes that particular sims enthusiasts would comment.

It would appear then that all three are great flight sims however, as 000rick000 pointed out, the difference in your average at home gear setup vs a profession full motion setup greatly affects the sims ability to recreate a real enough experience for a student pilot to learn 'all' aspects of flying, perhaps enough so that a student pilot should limit using a flight sim to learn cockpit flows and later, IFR procedures.

**TheAviator** · December 16th, 2016, 08:51

I am currently taking private pilot training in the UK, flying out of Cambridge airport (EGSC), in PA28 Warriors. What I have found is that flying a flight simulator (I have P3D) is not helpful to do in advance of learning the maneuver, but it is helpful to practice the maneuver after you have already been taught it properly by your instructor in the real aircraft. However, I think for this to be the case you need to have a simulator aircraft that has similar control panel and similar flight characteristics to the actual aircraft. I have the A2A Cherokee - not exactly the same as the warrior, but have discovered by comparison that the flight characteristics are nearly the same (approach speed, rpm settings, flap performance...). You also need to have a yoke, throttle, pedals, and trim wheel in my opinion for it to be helpful. A lot of proper flying is flying straight and at altitude, and you need all of these to simulate the difficulty of doing this in the real aircraft. In particular, trimming the airplane is fundamental, and you really can't do it without a trim wheel. I fly P3D over ORBX FTX England and UK2000 VFR airports, that has a reasonably accurate version of EGSC. These are close enough to help in practicing taxiing, circuits and landings.

A lot of what I practice is staying at circuit altitude (1000 feet QFE at Cambridge), how far to fly the downwind leg before turning base - reducing power, setting flaps and trimming for descent - judging when to turn final. The A2A Cherokee flies accuratly enough also to help in practicing the landing itself- judging the right altitude to flare.

**codeseven** · December 16th, 2016, 13:09

Originally Posted by TheAviator

I am currently taking private pilot training in the UK, flying out of Cambridge airport (EGSC), in PA28 Warriors. What I have found is that flying a flight simulator (I have P3D) is not helpful to do in advance of learning the maneuver, but it is helpful to practice the maneuver after you have already been taught it properly by your instructor in the real aircraft. However, I think for this to be the case you need to have a simulator aircraft that has similar control panel and similar flight characteristics to the actual aircraft. I have the A2A Cherokee - not exactly the same as the warrior, but have discovered by comparison that the flight characteristics are nearly the same (approach speed, rpm settings, flap performance...). You also need to have a yoke, throttle, pedals, and trim wheel in my opinion for it to be helpful. A lot of proper flying is flying straight and at altitude, and you need all of these to simulate the difficulty of doing this in the real aircraft. In particular, trimming the airplane is fundamental, and you really can't do it without a trim wheel. I fly P3D over ORBX FTX England and UK2000 VFR airports, that has a reasonably accurate version of EGSC. These are close enough to help in practicing taxiing, circuits and landings.

A lot of what I practice is staying at circuit altitude (1000 feet QFE at Cambridge), how far to fly the downwind leg before turning base - reducing power, setting flaps and trimming for descent - judging when to turn final. The A2A Cherokee flies accuratly enough also to help in practicing the landing itself- judging the right altitude to flare.

Great reply, thanks.

I think that's a really good suggestion to practice with a simulator only 'after' you have been taught in the real thing, and using a similar sim model with accurate flight modeling along with the hardware necessary to simulate the actual cockpit.

Its allot to bring together but necessary.

My concern is that the flight school I would like to get my training at uses Cessna 162's, for which good sim models are few and far between. I'll have to do as you've had and find a model that closely resembles a 162 and assemble the appropriate hardware to match the 162 cockpit.

***jmig*** · December 17th, 2016, 09:18

Originally Posted by codeseven

Great reply, thanks.

My concern is that the flight school I would like to get my training at uses Cessna 162's, for which good sim models are few and far between. I'll have to do as you've had and find a model that closely resembles a 162 and assemble the appropriate hardware to match the 162 cockpit.

I have never heard or seen a Cessna 162? 152 and 172 yes, but not a 162. Do you have a picture?