19 July, 1943 question about the attack on Rome...

[Rami]

Hey guys,

I had a couple of questions surrounding the bombing raid by the USAAF on 19 July, 1943 which struck the rail yards in Rome. I know that Jimmy Doolittle himself flew as the co-pilot in the Tail-End Charlie B-17, but some of the other information is sketchy, at best. Where did the bombers take off from? You can surmise Tunisia, but knowing where the bombers were stationed would help.

Also, was this the 12th Air Force or the NAAF at the time?

Any info along these lines would help.

Thanks in advance,

[Fibber]

..go here http://www.milhist.net/usaaf/mto43b.html and scroll down to 19 July.

Also take a look here starting around page 60 in addition there are references to charts and maps in the "A" section; http://www.8thafhsoregon.com/8th/analysis/Bombing-Italy-To-Surrender-smith_pa.pdf

[dvslats]

Hey Rami,

It's dated July 14, but may give you some other trails to explore.

North Africa: The 99th was attached to the 5th Bombardment Wing of 12th Air Force, stationed in North Africa.

Also in the 5th Wing were the 97th and 301st Bomb Groups. The 2nd Bomb Group would arrive from the United States in April of 1943, to be assigned to the 5th Wing.

The 99th was stationed at Navarin, located near Constantine. The 99th flew its first combat mission on March 31, 1943.

The 99th came to be referred to as the Diamondbacks, due to a diamond insignia painted on the vertical stabilizer of their B-17s. As Allied ground forces forced the German Afrikakorps to retreat into Tunisia, the 12th Air Force flew missions to cut off German supplies coming from Italy and Sicily.

For the rest of 1943, the 99th flew missions primarily across the Mediterranean Sea to bomb targets in Sicily and Italy.

In June, news of a possible Arab uprising had the men of the 99th nervous and wearing side arms at all times. Although a major uprising never occurred, there were acts of sabotage; including a small night time German paratrooper drop over Oudna Field, Tunisia that resulted in the capture of three Germans.

Summer dust storms made life miserable. On July 5th the group bombed an airfield at Gerbini, Sicily. An estimated one hundred enemy fighters made repetitive and fierce attacks, trying to turn the 99th back. The group however penetrated enemy defenses, and destroyed the airfield. For this mission, the 99th received its first Distinguished Unit Citation.

On July 9th, the group flew missions in support of the Allied invasion of Sicily.

The first Allied air attack on Rome took place on July 14th. Great care was taken by the 99th to avoid dropping any bombs on the Vatican City.

http://www.99bombgroup.org/history.php

[Rami]

David,

Every other source I've found states that it was 19 July, 1943. (Even the USAAF Operations website) Also, I double-checked all of those bomber groups within the last hour myself. I was using that info to get a picture in my mind and in mission builder of things like where the bombers would have assembled, climb to altitude, flight path, and my hunch that the B-25 and B-26 groups would have been stationed in Tunisia rather than eastern Algeria because of the range considerations.

I had originally mapped out a flight path that would have had them rendezvous northeast of Tunis, but instead I will shift that northwest to Bizerte, and likewise shift the escort departure point from Cape Bon back to the northwest.

Fortunately, the P-38H model can handle the flight with about a 40% fuel reserve, and this will increase with the shift of the track.

Update: It did, to about a 50% fuel reserve.

[Fibber]

...in the first reference that I gave you look at starting at page 124, charts and maps of the railyards and Rome on that day. Also the raid is listed as 19 July 1943. Follow-up raids were later, naturally.

[dvslats]

Hi guys,

Yep, I'm going to guess that 19 July is likely the correct date.

The info from 99bombgroup.org had several typos, and I'll bet that July 14 is another.

[Rami]

Hey guys,

Fibber, yeah, I saw that. I gotta talk to Captain Kurt and Kdriver about a couple of things regarding this, but it's one of the few historical missions from the 82nd Fighter Group that Captain Kurt didn't do.

[Rami]

Good morning,

Could someone please point out to me which one of these four circled areas represents the San Lorenzo marshaling yard? (freight yard, rail yard)

Thanks in advance,

[Blood_Hawk23]

Good morning,

Could someone please point out to me which one of these four circled areas represents the San Lorenzo marshaling yard? (freight yard, rail yard)

Thanks in advance,

If I had to guess, I'd say #2. Although I could be wrong. Which way does the main line go?

marshalling yard. noun. 1. (railways) a place or depot where railway wagons are shunted and made up into trains and where engines, carriages, etc, are kept when not in use.

So going by that definition, I say anything that would be connected to the main line but not in it, If that makes any sence. Unless someone knows for certain.

[Rami]

If I had to guess, I'd say #2. Although I could be wrong. Which way does the main line go?

John,

It heads north out of the city, basically in an "S" shape from its starting point. The Littorio rail yard is a bit further north.

[Blood_Hawk23]

John,

It heads north out of the city, basically in an "S" shape from its starting point. The Littorio rail yard is a bit further north.

so then #1?!? Maybe.

What are the Coords? I want to look it over.

[Rami]

John,

I think it's likely to be #2 as well, because #1 is actually the central train station of Rome. The problem is all four are pretty close to the San Lorenzo Quarter, and I'll be damned if I can figure out which one was actually targeted.

[Blood_Hawk23]

John,

I think it's likely to be #2 as well, because #1 is actually the central train station of Rome. The problem is all four are pretty close to the San Lorenzo Quarter, and I'll be damned if I can figure out which one was actually targeted.

I'll have to go with my original answer. After looking over google earth it would make the most sence. Plus that would be the best target with the least chance of damaging the historic buildings in Rome.

I'd draw a line from there to Littorio. That might give you a better idea.

[Fibber]

the link that I had previously sent you ; http://www.8thafhsoregon.com/8th/ana...r-smith_pa.pdf has a diagram of the strike bombfall. Also will give the Lats and Longs up in top right hand corner. Compare the diagram to the compass rose and it appears that #4 is what you seek.

There is also a overlay with key of then sensitive targets on a following page.

[Blood_Hawk23]

the link that I had previously sent you ; http://www.8thafhsoregon.com/8th/ana...r-smith_pa.pdf has a diagram of the strike bombfall. Also will give the Lats and Longs up in top right hand corner. Compare the diagram to the compass rose and it appears that #4 is what you seek.

There is also a overlay with key of then sensitive targets on a following page.

That map is for Littorio. Does it have San Lorenzo? I don't see it if it does.

Update:
San Lorenzo is 8 on Appendix B. which would be #2 still. Although I can't see 1 and 2 on Appendix B.

[Fibber]

..after staring at that appendix B for awhile, the light went on and I realized that the key uses M/Y for the RR yards.(As Homer Simpson would say DOOOOOOH!) it looks like due to the orientation on the map that map reference # 8 (San Lorenzo) is actually #3 on Ramis' outline. The one to the north (ref #5) appears to be Tiburtina (SP?) and number 15 is waaay to far out. I also can't find 1 and 2 and assume, by following # progression series and plot, they are to the top, and off, of the chart.

Just a thought here. Rami that photo, is it a new photo ? Possibility is that the M/Yards were upgraded after,or during, the war and THAT is causing the confusion. Maybe some of those yards weren't there at the time of the bombing and when rebuilt were added or expanded.
I will now resume radio silence.

[Blood_Hawk23]

Fibber,

Don't go silent. Thats good work. Atleast we can say where its not. Without knowing rail terms or common practices, we're just giving our best guess with what info is at hand.

Rami,

So by process of elimination, we can say its either 2 or 3. After looking through Google Earth, I see more names for San Lorenzo near 2. As Fibber stated, that area was rebuilt and possibly expanded. So I think either would work. I've come accross this very same thing doing my WWI research. A lot of times you have to get close enough and just call it good.

What else do you have. That was fun.

[Wayland]

Rami,will these help?

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/i...roma_south.jpg

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/i...roma_north.jpg

Dated 1944.

[Rami]

Hey guys,

MVG3d is working with me on mapping out Rome. Littorio railyard is complete, and Kdriver make Rome (Urbe) airfield for me already. There are also FS2004/2002 objects for Rome that are being worked with to try and add greater authenticity. Right now, they need to made into individual, destroyable objects (similar to the airfield buildings by Cees Donker) and another airfield has to be built south of Rome.

Fibber...thanks for the help!

Then, I get to go to work building the mission. A lot more work than was anticipated, but such is life.

I ran into the same issue with flipping around the Salerno missions. I thought it would be a fun "what if" scenario for German bombers to gain intelligence on the whereabouts of Force V at the start of the landings and send He-111s and Ju-88s to attack the British fleet of four "Woolworth" carriers, plus the HMS Unicorn, three Dido-class cruisers, and ten Hunt-class destroyers.

I knew that Stuart277 wanted to update some of his older models, so I sent him the info. His HMS Attacker covers four of the carriers, but I'd still need the HMS Unicorn.

The other mission would be a fighter/Zerstorer sweep over the landing force, trying to break up British and American fighter cover.

Ah, the things I go through for yous guyz.

[Rami]

Rami,will these help?

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/i...roma_south.jpg

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/i...roma_north.jpg

Dated 1944.

Wayland,

Yes, those are very helpful, thank you!

[blohmundvoss]

Hi Rami

Take a look at these - they might help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULd74cBzZ4I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMuEzaE9Q-s

Cheers
BuV

[Blood_Hawk23]

Rami,

So were we close?

If you need help on some of the objects let me know.

[Rami]

Rami,

So were we close?

If you need help on some of the objects let me know.

John,

Send an email to drew3424 at comcast dot net and I will get you collaborating with Robert John and Allen.

[Fibber]

...don't know if you saw this site but some photos halfway down may be of some interest to you. http://www.reddog1944.com/Missions_T...bat_Action.htm

BTW some target photos seem to indicate #2 AND 3 on you map were bombed. Apparently considered as one target yard. Some strike videos I saw show some photos hitting both yards and the spaces in-between them. Lost the site on this little contraption.