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Thread: Just Flight's Constellation repaints ?

  1. #26
    My repainting days are over but......

    I am in agreement that good third party repaints do increase interest in the product, and may at times increase sales. I for one always needed a good layered paint kit (due to my lack of talent and time) as a starting point for my repaints and really appreciate the companies and individuals that provided them to the community.

    Tommy
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  2. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Jafo View Post
    ....I'd rework a 1024 kit into 4096 and get absolutely anal with alignments....1 pixel at 4096 is 'anal'...
    That brings back some fond memories of Tim's A-12A Avenger II.....we both went nuts repainting that one!

    Tommy
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  3. #28

    Icon12

    talking about going nuts, I'm working on a paint/skin for the Milviz PC-6..
    Every single nut seems to be modeled, it's driving me.....you get the idea
    You can find most of my repaints in the library here on the outhouse

  4. #29
    When you ask for a " proper" paintkit you are asking for source code. If you arent into software development you might not quite understand why there's push back on this so here's a n analogy.

    Imagine going into a car dealership buying a car and then demanding to have access to the prototype and the service manuals. But not pay for it.
    Now in the auto world we have people like Haynes who will take a car photograph it , disassemble it and then publish a book to allow you the end user to modify/repair the car. Or you buy the horrendously expensive and more complex written factory service manual. In the first case you are relying on a 3rd party to make the guide. In the second case you are relying on the car maker to publicly release the manual. In both cases you are going to need to pay. It isnt part of the first purchase.

    The answer is paidkits ( yep I went there ! ) so say you want a westland lysander for Fsx. you have 2 choices buy the standard edition for 24.95 USD without paintkit or the deluxe edition for 29.95 with the paintkit. Then if at the end of say 6 months the purchases of the deluxe edition far outweigh the purchases of the standard ... well then you could point me to this very thread and I will tattoo mea culpa to my forehead. My thinking is that more people will by the standard edition. And if you want to make your own paintkit and offer it free even though the developer makes one as well... That's progress and the market and I hope that people will do this.

    The inclusion or exclusion of paintkits does not increase sales/downloads/life of an addon. Most developers will do something but they arent duty bound to provide a "proper" paintkit

    Also alluded to in this thread. Some of the fun of repainting is in fact ... repainting. If you dont have the time to spend on repainting then perhaps it's time for another hobby. I dont have time for plastic modelling so I stopped.

    Full disclaimer :
    1. we arent building a westland lysander. Cool plane but NO-ONE would buy it.
    2. I cant tattoo meaculpa on my forehead I have " undies first then trousers " tattooed there and there wouldnt be any more room.

  5. #30
    Senior Administrator huub vink's Avatar
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    Wow and this all started with the reasonable simple question:"Does anyone know of a good stack of military repaints for the Just Flight Constellation series? C-69, C-121, EC-121 or any other?"

    Well obviously the answer is no!

    I think the reason why became pretty clear from the discussion which followed.

    Although I'm around for quite a few moons and done quite a few repaints and created many dozens of layered paintkits in this period, including several from the bare wire model textures, I had never been aware that there is something like a "skinner kit" which is obviously something different than a "paintkit". And I always though I made some "decent paintkits", but now I have also learned there there is something like a "proper paintkit" which somehow contains the source code (????).

    But perhaps don't fully understand everything said here, I think it can be summarised by: "The sellers sells what he likes to sell, and doesn't give things he doesn't like to give for free" and "the buyer, buys what he likes to buy and although perhaps he likes gifts, he can not demand them".

    And simplify things even more, people can get my work for free and Barry's and Mike's work costs money. (Which is valid for many other contributors to our hobby).

    Cheers,
    Huub

  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by tommieboy View Post
    That brings back some fond memories of Tim's A-12A Avenger II.....we both went nuts repainting that one!

    Tommy
    That we did....[I blame you]...
    What I've always liked about Tim's bitmaps was how he managed to get almost everything on one bitmap [or two] so you weren't chasing alignments over multiple images....and that also meant the paints really benefited from being bigger res.
    The stuff I mess with has to be user-friendly first for me to consider spending time and effort...though that Yak130 by Hadi Tahir was 'entertaining'...as what seemed simple really wasn't....

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by huub vink View Post
    Wow and this all started with the reasonable simple question:"Does anyone know of a good stack of military repaints for the Just Flight Constellation series? C-69, C-121, EC-121 or any other?"

    Well obviously the answer is no!

    I think the reason why became pretty clear from the discussion which followed.

    Although I'm around for quite a few moons and done quite a few repaints and created many dozens of layered paintkits in this period, including several from the bare wire model textures, I had never been aware that there is something like a "skinner kit" which is obviously something different than a "paintkit". And I always though I made some "decent paintkits", but now I have also learned there there is something like a "proper paintkit" which somehow contains the source code (????).

    But perhaps don't fully understand everything said here, I think it can be summarised by: "The sellers sells what he likes to sell, and doesn't give things he doesn't like to give for free" and "the buyer, buys what he likes to buy and although perhaps he likes gifts, he can not demand them".

    And simplify things even more, people can get my work for free and Barry's and Mike's work costs money. (Which is valid for many other contributors to our hobby).

    Cheers,
    Huub
    Huub :
    Yes it is source code. Your paintkits are source code. You are giving away ( as are we btw you dont pay for our paintkits ) your time/effort and techniques. You therefore have made the choice to give away your source code. We have been giving away ours.

    Everyone :

    I think a skinner kit is "Slide your colour and serials underneath this layer and push save and export ". Where-as a repaint kit is wires and a colour id pass. The first is source code. Every dirt/scratch layer, every rivet and every technique that the original dev used must be there and lately even a readme on why we did something the way we did. Where as the repaint guide is entirely up to the repainter.

    Further to this PBR opens up even more of an issue.
    Take a P40 warhawk as an example with the sharkmouth.
    So you have the matte green of the paint but then the gloss of the mouth. Then you have another one where the position is different or a different design. Each metal map would need to be different due to the fact that the glossiness of a material is handled by one of the channels in the metal map. Not to mention the normal map as the height of the gloss paint is on top of the matte paint which introduces what is called micro-normals. How does a developer do that type of skinner kit ( " proper kit " ) ? I mean say you want to put a different type of shark mouth on it. We have to show you where in each alpha channel you need to put your edits. Editing alpha channels is hard as it is. To then make a skinnerkit for it ... well the mind boggles.

    Full disclaimer
    1. No we arent doing a warhawk.
    2. DAAAAAMNNN however I wish we were, love those things!
    3. Not an attack on Huub this is purely that he brought up a point that was salient to the general discussion.

  8. #33
    Above is way to BLACK and WHITE:

    1. You have repaintkits in a lot off different forms, from full layered which was used developer, to a bit more basic for the "skinners" as you describe.
    2. The better the repaintkit, usually means more repaints = more exposure for the original design = hopefully more sales
    3. The line between skinners and repainters as put in this topic is again not that black and white (as repainter i feel even insulted by some comments made in this topic)
    4. A good repaintkit which i made in the mind of repainters, will make the "skinners" into "repainters" because they are challenged to modify all the layers (incl. specs en bumps) to fit there repaint.
    This may need some more effort by the developer, yet see point 2.

    Kind regards,

    Marcel
    FS Repainters since 1996.

  9. #34
    I'm inclined to suggest supplying a wireframe template only, since apparently so few are satisfied with paintkits. That way they can decide how much or little to do. I have A2A's multi-layered Spitfire paintkit which is everything some are demanding and more, but (1) requires Photoshop and (2) is about the size of the model download IIRC. The A2A paintkit is also much more recent than the JF Connie: to slam a developer's old product by the current standards seems unjust.

    Only my tuppence ha'penny
    Tom
    __________________________________________________ ___________________________________________
    Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. Proverbs 4:7

  10. #35
    Why dont you just lock this thread as everyone has different methods of painting and now its become a pissing competition on how i learnt or how i do. We all have learnt by differnet means and so what. These posts now are trivial.

    All this thread is going to is discourage people who are contemplating on starting on learning to how paint or discourage people in gerenal to paint

    The thread has run its course
    Matt
    FS Painter @ The Hangar

    AUSTRALIA

  11. #36
    Bill got me started with his video.






  12. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by jeansy View Post
    Why dont you just lock this thread as everyone has different methods of painting and now its become a pissing competition on how i learnt or how i do. We all have learnt by differnet means and so what. These posts now are trivial. All this thread is going to is discourage people who are contemplating on starting on learning to how paint or discourage people in gerenal to paint The thread has run its course
    Looking over many of the inputs from some of the great painters, for now the thread will say open. There is good input and as long as there are constructive comments people can learn it stays open. Painters, if you are so inclined let us know your techniques. There just could be someone out there that will become a great painter someday.
    Regards, Tom Stovall KRDD


  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by TuFun View Post
    Bill got me started with his video.
    Tufun, Bill's video that you posted is one of my very favorites. I learned a bunch from watching it. I still watch it from time to time to refresh. Thanks for sharing.
    Regards, Tom Stovall KRDD


  14. #39
    Edit: Doubled-up post. Can't figure how that happens.

    Onward anyway.....

  15. #40
    Well.....this is a most interesting thread. Certainly a clear demonstration that's there more than one way to paint with zeros and ones in a given technical medium.

    In fact, the variation of technique appears to vary widely.

    The nature of personal contradiction I'm reading above makes me think a little of described arguments that may have taken place between a collected meeting of Impressionist artists in an 1890's Parisian cafe while swilling Absinthe. Although the dialogue of many a discussion became heated and most direct, in hindsight, none of them was wrong.

    Nor have I read any here who could be labeled, "wrong."

    Certainly, the dialogue describes a divergence in expectation and technique among individuals, that is most apparent.

    And rather than succumbing to negative emotion, it seems to me that there's a lot to celebrate about this lack of uniformity between desire, effect and deed.

    Primarily, this could be seen as a discussion that celebrates pure creative innovation and application of artistic solution and expression with little restraint, in a truly global format.

    It's a real privilege for me to have access to other's beautiful creative works, and read on the forums, the trials, tribulations, and ultimate solutions, as per "each one's own tune, in one's own style."

    And......like the Impressionist painters, (or any other artistic style, genre, medium, generation).......the wide variety of technique and methods in rendering is what creates a personal style, that which readily connects with the artist.

    That is an element that I especially cherish.

    If I could, I'd offer up a couple of bottles of Absinthe to this table right now, along with a platter of small glasses and a big jug of water. But lacking that 3D in person capability, I'll offer a thanks to all the painters who give it up freely and enhance this great specialized exploration that we all share and enjoy.

    Even notably now.....Tufun's posting of a video by Bill Womack. Holy smokes....the man has a channel of his own....I didn't know!! A sip of Absinthe and mouse click to subscribe....you know where I'll be most of this rainy afternoon. (Thanks Tufun!!)

    Be amazed, try to learn, try to apply, and vive la différence!


  16. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by TuFun View Post
    Bill got me started with his video.

    Thank you Ted! I just learned a lot from Mr. Womack. By the way, love your car on another site!

    Bob.
    Greenhouse357

  17. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by mgr View Post
    Above is way to BLACK and WHITE:

    1. You have repaintkits in a lot off different forms, from full layered which was used developer, to a bit more basic for the "skinners" as you describe.
    2. The better the repaintkit, usually means more repaints = more exposure for the original design = hopefully more sales
    3. The line between skinners and repainters as put in this topic is again not that black and white (as repainter i feel even insulted by some comments made in this topic)
    4. A good repaintkit which i made in the mind of repainters, will make the "skinners" into "repainters" because they are challenged to modify all the layers (incl. specs en bumps) to fit there repaint.
    This may need some more effort by the developer, yet see point 2.

    Kind regards,

    Marcel
    FS Repainters since 1996.
    With respect.
    1. Agree however , with new pbr techniques ( both in the generation of the textures and the way materials are set up ) this becomes tougher/less cost effective/ and less ROI See point 2.

    2. Absolutely disagree here. Sorry but no extra sales. More exposure for the repainter yes agree with you. Not so much for the original development.

    3. Again have to disagree with a caveat. If I were a repainter only I would see the greyness In that I agree whole heartedly.
    However I'm on the dev side.

    Take a model that is UV'd but no textures in grey. Everything has to be done from scratch. If I were to ask a person to paint it from that point they would only have wires and colour ID. I would classify that person as a painter/repainter.
    If however I had already done a texture, scribed the lines, rivets , made the decision where the dirt is going to go where the ground crew may have scratched something when replacing a bolt that was sheared off during a bumpy landing, done the normal maps, decals, noseart etc and tested it in sim then handed you every layer in a nicely named layer stack with comments and a readme then I am sorry but I classify you as a skinner.

    I dont understand why you might feel insulted by that. Being a skinner is not a derogatory term. It's a different term for a different type of user. unless I am missing something.

    4. I understand your thinking. and it is a good idea from a person who is an "fs repainter since 1996" However, we are developers. We arent trying to turn skinners into repainters. We're trying to make affordable addons that are interesting , different , cost effective ( to you and us ) and have a very good SPH ( smiles per hour ) that's our mission. If a skinner wants to become a repainter the onus is on that person surely ?

    I'm not attacking Marcel here. Really I'm not, it is good to hear opposing points of view. I agree with some of what he says and definitely appreciate his point of views on others. But I am a developer. As such my point of view is going to be different. To use the car analogy a car manufacturer is going to have very different ideas on what they will produce and include from a features point of view, than an enthusiast. A happy medium has to be found. I feel we've found that.

    I'd also like to thanK stovall for keeping the thread open. I didnt see the call for it to be closed in the posts since my last one but again let me say my posts might differ from your ideas ( as yours may differ from mine ) but we're all adults and we should be able to read differing opinions without the need to resort to thread closure. I'd like to think a developer has a right of reply and an opinion in 2019.



  18. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by TuFun View Post
    Bill got me started with his video.

    Wow, wish I saw that earlier, lots of info! Thanks!
    Born to Fly

  19. #44
    Skinner definition: a person who prepares or deals in animal skins
    Think repainter is still the best word. Repainters do you have in a lot different forms and use different methods.

    For the record i have also developed/designed for FS and made repaintkits. Have done repaints, with and without repaintkits or modified repaintkits.

    Kind regards,

    Marcel

  20. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by mgr View Post
    Think repainter is still the best word. Repainters do you have in a lot different forms and use different methods.

    For the record i have also developed/designed for FS and made repaintkits. Have done repaints, with and without repaintkits or modified repaintkits.

    Kind regards,

    Marcel
    The term skinner comes/came from my background in software. You skin an application. Heck theyre called winamp skins. UI developers will skin an application in UX widgets. It's not a literal use of the word.

    Either way the takeout is that in future a paintkit will be wires and ID. A repainter is going to be fine with that. A skinner might not but there are great sources on the internet ( Marcel here might be able to help plus the youtube video in this very thread ) that will help you paint from this point. And guess what you might enjoy it more as the outcome is purely yours and not some amalgam. You may even find that you'll find it more liberating.

  21. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by pilto von pilto View Post
    The term skinner comes/came from my background in software. You skin an application. Heck theyre called winamp skins. UI developers will skin an application in UX widgets. It's not a literal use of the word.
    Pretty much the first 'skinning' eventuated when Nullsoft made a butt-ugly media player called Winamp [whips the Llama's ass...]...and a guy called FLy7e 'hacked' the proggy to alter the bitmaps used, and opened up to the world the whole potential [and entertainment] for GUI modification. Dedicated GUI and Shell mods/proggies came soon after as the idea caught on [and MS proved to be useless at aesthetics....WinXP and its Fisher-Price look was the final straw]. The most enduring of these mods is Stardock's Windowblinds - a Shell enhancement, and possibly the most fun was had with LoneRunnr's 'LiteSTEP' - a shell replacement which you used instead of 'Explorer.exe' [the Win Shell]. At the height of GUI skinning there were quite a few sites dedicated to the process ...the first was Customize.org, and [almost] the last still standing is Wincustomize.com. Even Deviantart.com started by Jark [would have been late 2000] was originally for skinning initially...expanding to cater for all digital art.

    Before all that there were madmen [like me] that mucked with ASCHII codes to alter your cursor in Dos...ran various Dos shell replacements...or things like Calmira that turned Windows 3.11 into XP, etc. ... just so the appearance would be different/better.

    Skinning was/is a generic term originating in the 90's for [computer proggy] graphic manipulation - which is what is done when you change graphics for a plane...and/or make your own 2D cockpit by coding and painting [as you do].

    Proof of just how made we skinners got....there was even a proggy to alter the dreaded BSOD ....cos back in the day that was part of the OS you saw more often than not ...

  22. #47
    I have only re-painted/re-skinned (whatever you may call it) a few airplanes. Some came with and some without, a paint kit. Some of the paint kits had layers and some did not. Each presented it's own challenge.
    I use Photoshop and all I really need to be happy are a wire-frame layer (so I can find things) and a panel line layer (so I don't have to waste a lot of time fighting to get them to line up between halves). Anything else is just a nice bonus.

    That said, when I choose to paint something, it's based on the model (and reference material I have for it), not whether it has a paint kit.
    Current System Specs :
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    CPU: Intel Core i5-3470 @ 3.20GHz | RAM: 12 GB DDR3 1600
    GPU: ZOTAC GeForce GTX 980 Ti AMP! Extreme (6GB GDDR5

  23. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Jafo View Post
    Pretty much the first 'skinning' eventuated when Nullsoft made a butt-ugly media player called Winamp [whips the Llama's ass...]...and a guy called FLy7e 'hacked' the proggy to alter the bitmaps used, and opened up to the world the whole potential [and entertainment] for GUI modification. Dedicated GUI and Shell mods/proggies came soon after as the idea caught on [and MS proved to be useless at aesthetics....WinXP and its Fisher-Price look was the final straw]. The most enduring of these mods is Stardock's Windowblinds - a Shell enhancement, and possibly the most fun was had with LoneRunnr's 'LiteSTEP' - a shell replacement which you used instead of 'Explorer.exe' [the Win Shell]. At the height of GUI skinning there were quite a few sites dedicated to the process ...the first was Customize.org, and [almost] the last still standing is Wincustomize.com. Even Deviantart.com started by Jark [would have been late 2000] was originally for skinning initially...expanding to cater for all digital art.

    Before all that there were madmen [like me] that mucked with ASCHII codes to alter your cursor in Dos...ran various Dos shell replacements...or things like Calmira that turned Windows 3.11 into XP, etc. ... just so the appearance would be different/better.

    Skinning was/is a generic term originating in the 90's for [computer proggy] graphic manipulation - which is what is done when you change graphics for a plane...and/or make your own 2D cockpit by coding and painting [as you do].

    Proof of just how made we skinners got....there was even a proggy to alter the dreaded BSOD ....cos back in the day that was part of the OS you saw more often than not ...
    Ah Winamp. "whip the llama’s ass". I worked at Musicmatch down here in San Diego and we had a kid there who did nothing but create skins. I'll get back on topic next post. Thanks for the reminder of the good old days.

  24. #49
    ahh skinning. I did a few for wa2 and wa3 ( as it was back then .) and a few litestep/blackbox themes ( in fact I think they're still on dA somewhere ). I still remember going to work trying to find where I could put #ff00ff somewhere else rather than interacting with customers... Oddly enough maki scripting ( the scripting back end to winamp 3+5 skins ) is super close to xml/lua scripting which we all end up using in this hobby ! So it is all cyclical.

    I actually miss the early 2000's app skinning scene.

    Ok enough reminiscing.

  25. #50
    Nice repaint video, When I watch that video by Bill Womack, Bert's (Bert and Ernie Sesame street) voice comes to mind.


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