New P3 Orion

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Ivan,

As yet things are peaceful in the workshop, but one never knows for how long! Today they are busy voting anyway...

For the moment, I´ve achieved a wonderfully bleed-less result for the lower scoop, but not so wonderful shape-wise.

It is a hybrid-built nacelle, mainly made of one component but with a bottom-only keystone cross-sectioned lower-scoop structure glued underneath. The lower-rear nacelle sides are as yet unfinished, and inner nacelles, non-existent.

Plausible enough? I wonder... For me it´s a typically unacceptable result which works well only technically and structurally, but not aesthetically.
So it´s either this or no moving control surfaces...

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[Ivan]

Hello Aleatorylamp,

Actually I don't know about the issue with Keystone Structures. I don't believe I have ever used one on a project and probably never even used one in testing. As I see it, there really isn't that much of a point since the shape is so limited.
Regarding building on the Centerline, that is actually what I have been doing for my Nacelles since I am only building one sides Parts so as not to have to change too much when I am just reworking pieces for less resource use. It isn't my standard way of building, but this also isn't one of my standard projects either. It is really just a study of shapes and assembly techniques.

Why are you getting so complicated with a Structure Glued to the bottom of your Nacelle???
To me, this is a pretty straightforward construction since you already have your Wings in three sections:
One Component ahead of the Wing Leading Edge and one in line with the rest of the Wing pieces should work out pretty well.

My issue with my version of the Orion is that I am seriously running out of resources and also that I haven't really been doing much on it lately. Fitting and tuning the Merlin Engine has been occupying my staff lately.
Sooner or later there should be a few technicians back on the Orion project.

- Ivan.

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Ivan,

The keystone structure IS very limited... quite useless, as most structures are anyway.

For the moment I was experimenting with a whole nacelle made of a single component, and as you know with components, more or less vertical parts of portuberances similar to scoops half way down a body create bleeds through the body.

Of course, it would be quite straight forward to divide the nacelle at the lower scoop (not at the leading edge because of scoop bleed-through), and having the forward half in nose left/right will eliminate the necessity of strange solutions like glue-adding keystone structures - BTW, making the scoop structure a little smaller and adjusting the textures helped quite a lot...

Anyway, I still have to free two extra components to divide the 4 nacelles in two parts, Let´s see... I´ll have to start getting rid of all the hinges...

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[Ivan]

Hello Aleatorylamp,

"As you know...." Actually I don't believe in what you are attributing to me.

You can use the sequence of Parts in the Component to eliminate bleeds.
I demonstrated this a few years ago with some simple Components.
The Cowl with Carburetor Scoop (Lower Front Scoop) on my A6M2 is just a single Component and there were no bleeds that I could find.
The reason it was such a pain to re do the CowlMain Component on my P-40F was because I had to do it in such a way that the concave sections would not bleed.

The Opening to the Lower Scoop can be done with a simple texture.
I can demonstrate when I have actually rebuilt my Nacelles into a Forward Component and an Aft Component.

- Ivan.

[aleatorylamp]

Hello all!

Merry Christmas to all! I hope you have all had some nice dinners with your loved ones.
I also wish you all a Happy New Year´s Eve celebration, as well as all kinds of good things like health, love, luck and happiness for 2016.
Let´s see what we can get away with next year!!

Hello Ivan,
I thought I´d answered your last post and got a reply to it... but I don´t remember very well.
Not important anyway.
I´m still working on the nacelles. As soon as they´re finished, I´ll post the result.

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[aleatorylamp]

Hello to all of us in the sub-sub basement!

Smilo, Ivan, NoDice, Hubbabubba, Papingo... I just wanted to say thank you again for the birthday greetings in the thread that Ivan opened over a month ago, which I had completely missed until over a month later, on Boxing Day, when I saw it and replied, quite shocked to have missed it.
Again, I´m ever so sorry!

As the server won´t notify replies to the thread after a month has passed, I just thought I´d let you know that I have answered, and commented on one or two things that were mentioned in the greetings.

I hope you all have a nice New Year´s Eve!
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Ivan,
Early Grey would be an Earl Grey early in the morning, I suppose...

Well, after the huge success with the nice, smoothly curved concave wing structures (I´d never thought they could be made like that!) on the Hansa Brandenburg, the Orion panel beaters have all their hammers back, merrily hammering away at the engine nacelle panels.

The P3 Orion is a complicated build, but we already know that... This time it´s the tall nacelle. I was wondering whether you´d have any ideas on the following:
The inner wing bleeds through the top part of the inner nacelle. At the moment, the inner-wing is in Innerwing mid left/right, glued to the wingroot, and the inboard nacelle is in wing mid left/right with everything else in the wing. I have tried a few different strategies, which don´t work:
1) Separating the forward part of the nacelle into another component,
...a) keeping it in wing mid left/right or
...b) putting it into nose left/right.
2) Putting the inner wing in wing mid left/right, glued to the inboard nacelle,
...a) dividing the nacelle, or
...b) keeping the whole inboard nacelle as 1 component.

The outer nacelle works fine as a single component, by the way.
Probably there is something that can be done which I don´t know about,
unless of course there isn´t...

Funnily enough this did not happen with the nacelles as structures.

No hurry with the answer... at your leisure!
Nice panel on the Warhawk, by the way...
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[Ivan]

Hello Aleatorylamp,

As far as bleeds go, there should be no differences between Structures and Components.
There must be something else going on here.

I haven't looked at my version of the Orion in a while; Time has been spent on the Merlin Warhawk recently.
I believe it can all be done in the manner I proposed with each Nacelle split into a fore and an aft Component and the Wing split into three Components.
I just need to spend the time to break the Wing into three Components on each side, but before that, I need to finish up the Nacelles.....

At the moment, I have no advice because I can't see what is happening on your project and because I don't have an equivalent to look at on my side.

I have made some changes to the Warhawk's Panel over the last couple days. That has been the thing taking up most of my time. The Background has been the most difficult thing but I believe I have finally figured things out.

- Ivan.

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Ivan,
Thanks for your prompt statement!
OK. No hurry - there´s also other planes I have waiting to work on.
For the moment on the Orion I´ve reverted back to structure nacelles, turning all the wheels and the tail sting into components again to save as many parts as possible, and this time it has allowed me to apply the new nacelle profiles to the old nacelle structures.
Aesthetically, the result is very pleasing despite the elliptical cross-section, which is not completely correct, but for the moment it´s good enough to allow work to start on the textures.
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[aleatorylamp]

Hello again,

The interim structure-nacelles at the end hardly looked more or less good from the side - the exhaust outlet shape is incorrect, being slanted, and adding a wedge-shaped structure didn´t compile. But, at least it served to get the textures right.
There are also other structure-matching problems, but as I won´t use structures there on the definite model, it doesn´t matter anyway.

Now I´m back to the panel beaters for the component-nacelles, also eliminating the keystone structures for the lower scoops - fewer parts anyway! The next step will be splitting up the nacelle component, as probably a single component nacelle won´t work. So it´s 3 for the inboard nacelles and 2 for the outboard ones. To free all these components, I will eliminate a few moving control surfaces, so there´s quite a lot of work to do as yet!

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[Ivan]

Hello Aleatorylamp,

Isn't it funny how we have so many different kinds of specialists in our workshops but can't get more than one task done at a time??? I wonder why that might be. Perhaps it is because we only have one group of technicians and they just keep changing hats?

My technicians just finished working on the Warhawk Instrument Panel and now they are working in the paint shop for another colour scheme for the Merlin Warhawk. Some of them are preparing procedures for the flight testing and writing the checklist to be issued with the aeroplane. Unfortunately only one task seems to get accomplished at a time.

Regarding Three Components for the inboard Nacelles, is it because of the extra "Step" on the lower side to house the landing gear? I can't comment on whether that can be done in only Two Components because I have not actually built one yet to test ideas.

- Ivan.

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Ivan,

Yes, and I think the only one who could help for simultaneous multitasking in the different workshops is Saint Francis of Assisi who could be in two places at the same time, ...only two, but it would suffice: I have the research section for experimental building techniques on the Orion, and then there´s the vintage biplane refurbishing workshop. Maybe St. Francis could teach my staff the Gift of Ubiquity. Another thing would be to have them all cloned!

The reason I was musing about 3 components for the inner nacelle was because of the bigger lower bulge housing the wheels, but the size will most probably not be the crucial factor. It will be necessary to have the outer nacelle in 3 components too: Upper wing-bulge, and lower wing-bulge and the forward nacelle.

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Ivan, hello all!

I finally pulled myself together some time ago, and eliminated the moving control surfaces to free enough components and parts to get the engine nacelles to display correctly, but despite the obviously cleaner display on the tail and outer wings, there is a strange sensation now, when I look at the model in flight.

For years I´ve seen my ailerons, rudders and elevators all merrily moving around, usually at 22% motion range in Aircraft Animator so as not to exaggerate, and now suddenly all that´s all gone, immobilized, and it feels like something´s missing.

In the workshop, most of the workers are skiving, running out for cups of tea all the time and at best looking for pretexts to do other things like refurbishing old biplanes. Only a couple are still working on the Orion, but only to try out yet another possibly futile experiment with structure-parts, to keep the moving surfaces on. There´s quite a nerve-wracking search going on to see where there are possibilities to scrounge enough parts without affecting the shape of the model.

Anyway, I´ll soon find a way this project can continue.

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Ivan, hello all,
I could finally scrounge enough components to have 3 for each nacelle AND retain all moving control surfaces, which is nice. I could save a few components by successfully turning fin and rudder into structures, so it´s once again green light for the necessary correctly shaped nacelles!
As soon as I get some cracks filled in for a couple of decent screenshots, I´ll post some to illustrate the progress.
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[Ivan]

Sounds Great!

I am curious to see if you are heading in the same direction I was...
The P-40E Warhawk is now done and even finished with the SCASM process.
Next comes the Long Tails and work should begin on that in the next hour or so.

From the Great War to the P-3 Orion.... Aren't you skipping an awful lot of stuff?

- Ivan.

[aleatorylamp]

Hi Ivan,

Nice to hear of your progress with the Warhawk versions.
As we commented before, the P40´s fly very nicely indeed. Once the Orion is done, perhaps we could talk about tweaking the .air file a bit for the MOI´s and control surface moments.

Thanks for your motivating enthusiasm! Now that I have finally sorted out my resources for the P3 Orion nacelles, my initial plan for each nacelle is as follows:

1) A front component in Nose left/right, with the top main scoop, the bottom part reaching upto but not including the smaller lower scoop. There´s a nose/wing template separating this front component from the rest of the nacelle, as I had on the structures. For the moment, it´s working quite well, but I can undertake alterations in the grouping if needed.

2) A top component fitting over corresponding gaps in the three wing sections, placed in Wing Mid left/right.

3) A bottom component starting at the lower scoop and going backwards until it gets flat where the flaps start. This would also be in Wing Mid left/right. The inner one would be fatter for the wheels, but would still be one component.

How all this will be glued is another matter... I´ll see when I get there!

At the moment, all the front and top components are done, fitting the vertices of the wing, and I´m just doing the lower scoop on the outer lower section - the easy one!
Next will be the inner lower component... I´m saving my energies for it!!

I had also started upgrading yet another large twin biplane, the Rumpler G.II, a 1916 medium-size, medium-range tactical bomber which flew before all the other Grossflugzeuge did, and was in effect the fastest of all, but for the moment it´s probably too much of the same kind of plane, so I´ll wait a bit with that and give the Orion priority now.

The jumps in the times my models correspond to, probably follow the motto "a change is as good as a rest"!
What will follow after the Orion is still a mystery...

Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[aleatorylamp]

Hello all, and hello Ivan!

Fortunately, after Ivan´s lenghty and inestimable help on this model, and after experimenting with a lot of different building methods, it has come to a point where the model is quite presentable and definitely viable. I have been able to retain all the moving parts, without which I´m afraid I was not very happy. Although they cause some added bleedthrough problems, they do however add a certain liveliness and action to the model.

There came a point of excessive building complication that thwarted AF99 compilation at 146.7% despite already cleaned-up vertices on nacelles and other components, so I had to look for a simplification, which I found in the spinners. These were built in forward and rear sections to allow for propblurs glued in-between, which is now unfortunately no longer possible as they are single structures.

Other problems which are still not completely solved are the exhaust flanges on the traing edge, and elevator and rudder root fillets, which are really not too bad, and I doubt can be improved.

AF99 Parts count is at 142 %, with 1136 parts, and although the model is not completely bleedthrough-free, this is only transitory and not too bad.

I´m still fixing small details like wheel doors, etc., and I´m starting on the textures now, and perhaps my texture-specialist friend Udo Entenmann will help me with them, so that there will soon be a definitive version to upload.

For the moment, here are 6 screenshots as eye-candy, and also a zip file containing the model with provisional textures and also source AFX/PCX files, should anyone wish to have a look if they feel so inclined!

Cheers,

[aleatorylamp]

Hello all, Hello Ivan,
Now that the P3-Orion is almost finished, pending possible suggestions for improvements and/or protest (!!), I´m waiting for Udo´s expretise for some nice new textures, and my fingers are starting to itch for the next project.
The list of possibles comprises:
- Grumman Tigercat 7F7.
- Martin A-30 Baltimore.
- Lockheed PV-1 Ventura and/or PV-2 Harpoon.
I was wondering if anyone had any preferences as to which should be the next model. The attached screenshots may help in the decision... Personally I have no preference, as they are all WW2 twins, each with their own individual attractiveness. Suggestions will be very welcome!
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp

[smilo]

needless to say, i'm partial to WWII twins.

as always, the decision is yours.
BUT, if i had my druthers,
it would be the Baltimore.
the unsung workhorse hero
of the Mediterranean theater.
truly, conspicuous by it's absence.
(it was on my build list,
when i was still building)

next would be the Ventura and/or Harpoon,
followed by the Tigercat.

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Smilo!
Thanks for your suggestion - I needed something to incline the balance toward one or the other.
So the Baltimore it will be!
It looks like a good CFS1 model candidate: It seems to have been quite heavily armed, with a very manoueverable and sturdy air frame and considerable bombing accuracy as well as relatively high performance.
Its production of over 1500 units and the versatily of the model make it well worthy of a decent CFS1 model! I have already got the plans printed out and my workers will commence shortly!
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp.

[smilo]

i look forward to watching
this project take shape.
with so many variants,
one could keep busy
for quite some time.
i'm curious which one
you will start with.

i can't help but think
of Ivan's P-40 project.

if you need any documents
or extra drawings,
please, let me know.
i have a bunch.

[aleatorylamp]

Hi Smilo,
I got a couple of 1200x1200 pixel 3-views, one of them from the blueprints page,
and I was thinking of making the GR.V version with the upgraded 1700 hp engines,
which was the most-built version, with 600 units of the total 1575. (See attached pics).
I´ll also be sticking in a few extra machine guns in the belly and nose.-
The heavily glazed nose will be one of the challenges on this model, I suppose.
I´ll open another thread for this as soon as I get started.
Cheers
Aleatorylamp

[smilo]

even though not the GR.V,
you may find these helpful;


please let me know if you would like more.

[smilo]

if i might recommend,
this would be a good time
to start a new baltimore thread.

[aleatorylamp]

Hello Smilo,
Yes, I´ve just started the thread for the new A-30 Baltimore project.
I remember Ivan also mentioning that this aircraft would be of interest.
Cheers,
Aleatorylamp