Gauges for Combat Flight Simulator
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  1. #1

    Gauges for Combat Flight Simulator

    One of the things that has bothered me for years is not having stock gauges either in CFS or FS98 to do the things I want.
    Some of the issues have been for Fuel Selectors for unusual Fuel Tank Arrangements and Multi-engine gauges that will work properly.

    A few days ago, I was trying to explain to my son why I was trying to program my own Tachometer (easy first project I hope) and wanted to show him that the FS98 Cessna Tachometer simply did not work.
    Strangely enough, the Cessna gauges worked perfectly as did the Extra's Digital Tachometer.

    I was surprised. I KNOW they didn't work earlier which is why I wanted to program my own.
    Last night, I was looking back on my test aircraft's panel and noticed that the Cessna Tachometer had stopped working again; Its needle was pegged at somewhere near 4000 RPM while the P-51D Tach and Extra's Tach both were reading near the correct 2600 RPM value.

    Have any of you seen this before? Do FS98 or perhaps FS2000 gauges work in CFS? I know that CFS2 gauges do not work in CFS..

    - Ivan.

  2. #2
    SOH-CM-2019 hubbabubba's Avatar
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    I have used FS98 gauges time and again without real problems. For example, the jeep uses them. They should be, for the most part, retro compatible. The only one that can cause problem are related to startup and magneto, maybe a few other.

    FS2K (true ones) wont work. I tried...
    Torture numbers and they'll say anything.


    Hubbabubba, Touche à tout.

  3. #3
    Hello Hubbabubba,

    Glad to see you again.
    So far, I have been getting very inconsistent results with FS98 stock gauges and not good results with the ones I have been trying to program. CFS stock gauges don't seem to have problems but they do not have anything for the second engine or some of the odd fuel selectors that I need....

    - Ivan.

  4. #4
    SOH-CM-2019 hubbabubba's Avatar
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    Just realized yesterday...

    ... that the jeep uses FS98 AIR file. I checked the Taifun, a CFS1 AIR file, and it is using the Bf-109 tachometer.

    The change in reciprocating engines sections between FS98 and CFS1 did caused a few gauges to act weirdly... or not at all.
    Torture numbers and they'll say anything.


    Hubbabubba, Touche à tout.

  5. #5

    Tachometer Version 2 Testing

    Hello All,

    I have actually had some success with programming a Tachometer for CFS.
    The test subject is a B-25 Mitchell, and unfortunately I have had to hard code the 2600 RPM Maximum.
    In theory, it should be self calculating but I have not figured out how to do that yet.

    Here is what it looks like.

    The hole in the center of the pointer is so that I can tweak the alignment of the indicatory on the gauge face.
    I am finding that the values which SHOULD center the gauges alignment is very close but is not precise.

    - Ivan.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails NewTachometer1.jpg   MitchellC1.jpg  

  6. #6

    utterings

    with respect to Ivan's gauges.....
    As you say Ivan the gauges dlls seem to just supply
    info for (I presume) the panel .dll to create a bespoke
    gauge.ie type ,bitmaps for gauges ect
    I looked at the temperature gauge in 98 SDKand it gives
    formulas for centigrade +farnheight outputs.
    maybe worth a look tosee how it is done.
    Ps Iam in hospital for last week or so-old skin trouble.
    before that I was experimenting with Microsoft scale
    AI .mdls and .dps (scale ref means 2X size thro' the
    gunsight)
    Has anyone ever seen the stock bf109e catch fire?
    I know that I have not!!!!

  7. #7
    Hello Papingo,

    Hope your skin issue gets fixed soon and you get to go back home.

    Your understanding of gauges and mine is a bit different.
    I believe the ".gau" fie is the DLL and the Panel.cfg file only specifies which DLLs to call.
    The panel.cfg file is a simple text file and can be edited by any reasonable text editor.

    My need for building custom gauges is mostly because I just want to know how to do it and I like including either stock files or stuff I built myself into released aircraft. I am sure there are better panels than I am likely to build.
    The need for building gauges at this point is because there are no stock CFS or FS98 multi-engine gauges that will work well enough for me.
    The FS98 Tachometer is available for multi-engine aeroplanes, but it does not read correctly; It always seems to read way too high. For some reason the Extra 300 digital gauge seems to read correctly....
    The Tachometer may not have been the best place to start, but it was the one I needed the most.
    The other gauge I need just as much is the Manifold Pressure gauge.

    This became a serious issue when I realised that the P-38J (subject of the Design Study thread) happens to have a very unusual gauge that I have never seen implemented before.
    The early model P38s had the standard looking gauges, but the late P-38 used gauges with a single dial for both engines but with one indicator needle for each engine.
    Instead of starting there, I thought I might start simpler with a plain Tachometer I could use for my B-25 Mitchell.

    At the moment, I have a working set of Tachometers for that aeroplane, but the problem is that I had to hard code the Maximum RPM to 2600. It should be able to sense the Maximum RPM specification from the token variables and that is the part I am currently working on. I am sure I will get it eventually.

    Speaking of Messerschmitt 109Es, have you tried out the Me 109E Trop that I released here a few months ago? It is a heavily modified AFX by Richard Osborne so it isn't really mine, but I believe it is the best 109E that is currently available for CFS.

    - Ivan.

  8. #8
    Hello Ivan,
    Hopefully future changes be more pleasant.
    Good luck with the Tachometer!
    You have my moral support.
    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp

  9. #9

    Success? We shall see soon.

    Hello All,

    The new Gauge is on the top row, second from the right.
    From appearances, it seems to match the
    Extra 300 Digital Gauge,
    P-51D Tachometer,
    and Jerry Beckwith's Test Panel
    quite closely.

    A lot more testing needs to be done to verify the results,
    If the testing is successful, there will need to be some major repackaging to be done.....

    ....But it is a good sign after all this time.
    It isn't the entire solution to my twin engine projects but it is a major part.

    - Ivan.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails RPM0585.jpg   RPM3000.jpg   RPM2000.jpg  

  10. #10
    Hello Ivan,
    Still so much snow... looks like it´s a long winter this year?

    That you can do gauges being quite ill is quite amazing too. At least you´re not bored.

    The next gauge to choose? Well, that´s an easy one... Four that come into mind, or
    two in the case of dual needle ones, could be Oil temperature, Oil pressure, EGT, and CHT.
    In the case it was a single-needle gauge, which of these four, would be the most important?
    ...but of course it´s entirely up to you!

    A FW200, the Condor! Of course. I built one of the passenger versions from scratch some years
    ago that could be made into a military version perhaps, and adapted for CFS1!

    Update: I´ve had a look. The FW-200 loads into CFS1 without the FS98 sounds.
    The panel works, only some gauges didn´t, so the panel and almost all gauges are. However, there is some confusion with 2 throttle levers affecting more than one RPM or ATA gauge, or none. This now, would not happen, of course!!
    Question: Shall I start a new thread with the model pics and info I have, for a possible new military adaptation for CFS1 of this project in the future?

    To handle a BV 222 Wiking with 6 engines, it could only be done by duplicating and renaming engine 1,2, and 3 gauges, having a 3-engined .air file with twice the Hp per engine, and running the engines in pairs adapting a 3-engined thrust quadrant bitmap.
    Throttle 1 controls engines 1 and 2 (left outboard and left central)
    Throttle 2 controls engines 3 and 4 (left and right inboard)
    Throttle 3 controls engines 5 and 6 (right central and right outboard)
    How´s that for a solution?

    You are certainly catching up, and also overtaking. Developers abandoned the issue 15 years ago.

    Well, let´s see what happens!
    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Condor.jpg  
    Last edited by aleatorylamp; March 15th, 2017 at 11:59.
    "Why make it simple if you can also make it complicated?"

  11. #11
    Hello Aleatorylamp,

    It isn't necessarily a long winter. It is more like completely unstable weather.
    I think that our effects on the environment are the general cause.
    In the last couple decades, many tens of thousands of trees have been removed.
    From the major roads, we can now see things that were once completely hidden.
    I can hear the train station that is about two to three miles away even in the summer.
    When I first moved in, the sound could barely be heard when the leaves were still on the trees.
    A couple weeks ago it was getting near 80 degrees F outside: a touch warm even with just a T-shirt.
    Today it is down in the mid 20's.
    The Cherry Tree in my front yard started blooming about a week ago as did many other trees.
    Some of the other trees just look brown now and the blossoms are falling without ever having a chance for a good show.
    I would imagine that the fruit harvest is going to be VERY poor this year.

    Regarding the FW 200, why not upload it in the commercial colours it is wearing now?
    It looks pretty good as it is.

    Good idea about engines on the BV 222.

    Regarding Gauge Development, I believe quite a few folks got much further with Gauges than I have at this point.
    I am currently in the lead because no one else is in the race any longer; They finished a couple decades ago....

    - Ivan.

  12. #12
    Hello Smilo!
    You certainly have been productive! It looks great, and it sounds very effective.
    You are right about pop-up panels - they let you see things in detail. A good idea to use them. I had always thought that simplifying everything onto the main panel was better because you had everything with one look, but of course, it´s too simplified because you get no details!
    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp
    "Why make it simple if you can also make it complicated?"

  13. #13
    Hmmm.....

    That panel offers up a LOT of possibilities.
    That must be the famous Sperry Mk.III autopilot.
    There is something pretty similar on some of the WW2 US Bombers.
    I recognize the similarities though I don't know how to use either one.

    I need to spend more time in the virtual skies and less time in the virtual machine shop and electronics lab.

    - Ivan.

  14. #14
    Hello Ivan,
    I´m glad to hear you are making progress on the gauges for your own models! Interesting work indeed.

    I don´t blame you for not wanting to further occupy yourself with Microsoft gauge dials - the difference between your neat looking dials, even if you say they are quite simple, and the default CFS1 ones is noticeable indeed! It must be because they come from the times when they were worried about computer resource usage, although with the accellerators card most simmers had, this shouldn´t have been a criteria to go by.

    Anyway, thanks to your work on the gauges it has been possible for me to complete mine.
    I´ll see if I rotate the gauges by 1 degree to straighten them out!

    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp
    "Why make it simple if you can also make it complicated?"

  15. #15
    Hello Ivan,
    Congrats on the preliminary results!
    Look very promising indeed.
    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp

  16. #16
    Hello All,

    After a couple days of messing around when I could get the time, I am finding that the Microsoft SDK Macros are amazingly in the amount of hidden side effects and code generation.
    At this point, I can get a Tachometer working but some very basic stuff still seems to elude me.
    I am still making progress but it is slow with lots of trial and error.....

    - Ivan.

  17. #17

    Just a Little Success

    Hello All,

    The screenshots show the most recent testing.
    After getting pretty well tangled in my edits, I decided to try the same modifications but only one at a time.
    The results are quite pleasing thus far.
    What isn't visible in the external screenshots that I can see in the simulator is that the two propeller animations are quite different from each other.

    (The two small analog gauges at the center of the screen are the new ones.)

    The RPM looked as it should during startup.
    The values also looked as expected at full throttle.

    The fist screenshot shows the results of cutting ignition on Engine 1.
    Noted on the lower left corner that both magnetos are off. (I have no controls for Engine 2.)
    Engine 1 RPM matches between the
    P51D stock Tachometer,
    Extra 300 Tachometer,
    my two Engine 1 gauges, and
    the Beckwith Test Tachometer.

    Note that the FS98 Cessna 182 Tachometer at upper right doesn't seem to correspond to anything else.
    On the next version of this test panel, I should remove it and the Gauge at upper left that I was using to check token values.

    Next step is to add the Engine 3 and Engine 4 Gauges to be useful and complete and to re package a few things that would make it easier for further development. The functioning is there now, but there is still quite a lot of editing needed to make things the way I want them to be.

    After that, comes a set of Manifold Pressure Gauges which hopefully will not cause problems.

    - Ivan.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails TwinTachPanel.jpg   TwinTachTestExternal.jpg   TwinTachTestClothed.jpg  

  18. #18
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    this is encouraging...well done.

    your comment about "no controls for Engine 2"
    got me to thinking about a panel setup
    sent to me years ago for the a20.
    if you have any interest,
    i would be happy to zip it up
    and send it to you...gauges included.
    sometimes the magic works.
    sometimes it doesn't.

  19. #19
    Hi Smilo,

    Please do email me the panel setup. It is worth looking at to learn even if I want to build my own stuff.
    Bottom line is that I still am pretty uneducated as to how to set up a panel.

    I finished up Tachometers for Engine 3 and Engine 4 and wanted to test them.
    The problem was that I needed a suitable victim for testing, but I wanted to use a CFS Flight Model rather than one from FS98.
    I came across the RAAF Avro Lancaster which has a mediocre 3D model and only a FS98 Flight Model, but also has a really excellent Panel arrangement.
    I will be looking there also for ideas when I have enough completed in the way of Gauges.

    Because I could not find a decent CFS Flight Model for a 4 Engine Aeroplane, I cheated a bit..... (Check Record 311 in the AIR File.)
    Did you know that there were 4 Engine B-25 Mitchells???? I didn't either, but here is a screenshot showing the performance to be expected.

    FWIW, there actually was a prototype B-25 Mitchell fitted with a pair of Pratt & Whitney R-2800 engine.
    It was an amazingly hot ship until it had a structural failure and crashed.

    For the 4 Engine Gauges, the startup changes in RPM worked as expected, so I believe this is a workable set of gauges.
    Now comes the re-arranging of the code, bitmaps (This bitmap is not really suited for the Mitchell), compile order, etc.
    But I think I will go for the Manifold Pressure Gauges to make sure the token variables work as expected.

    Note that for the Mitchell and the P-38J Lightning, I actually still need two pointer gauges and I have not figured those out yet.

    - Ivan.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 4EngineTachTest.jpg  

  20. #20
    Hello Ivan, Hello Hubbabubba,

    Thanks for the link, Hubbabubba.
    I remember a Brazilian flight-simmer called Claudio Mussner who made custom gauges for the Gotha and Zeppelin bombers with Easygauge. It was great! Dual-Needle RPM gauge replica of the original, and an original inclinometer - combination between artificial horizon and variometer. A really amazing thing. There was even a dangling pencil for when you rolled!!

    All very wonderful... BUT... here comes the kicker: EasyGauge is only good for FS2002 onwards. Also for CFS2 then.
    That was at least what I was told when I got the Gotha and Zeppelin Gauges.
    I´ve just downloaded Easygauge and installed it. It asks for the FS2002 Gauge folder... so...

    So ever since the beginnings in 2004 of my interest in building for FS98 and now for CFS1, gauges for these sims had to be done in "C", and I´m only good at QBasic 1.1, so you can imagine how I feel now with the new Engine 1 to 4 RPM and ATA gauges !!! Then, a set of oil pressure and oil temperature gauges would conclude the lot and make the entire dream come true.
    But that´s entirely up to you, Ivan!
    It´s already quite unbelievable with the RPM and ATA ones. That´s why I said it was like Christmas.

    Re: Condor.
    I can study the gauge behaviour on the FW200 with the current FS98 file, and then see what happens with a CFS1 file.
    For the moment, what I´ve seen is this:
    -Engine 1 throttle also affects RPM 4, apart from RPM 1 and ATA 1.
    -Engine 2 throttle is the only correct one, affecting only RPM 2 and ATA 2.
    -Engine 3 throttle also affects ATA 4, apart from RPM 3 and ATA 3.
    -Engine 4 throttle affects no gauge at all but does affect aircraft speed.
    -All Oil temperature gauges show maximum even with cold engines.

    This is what led me to think that your new gauges, Ivan, would be of help here, at least for CFS1.
    I could check whether this also happens in FS98.

    I´ll also check with the Beckwith test panel.
    Incidentally, I can´t find the fuel-flow numbers there... but maybe it´s just me.

    I can see your difficulty with gauge bitmaps. The correct angles for the circular dials angles are a bummer!

    OK, then, I hope you get better soon.
    Chrysanthemum tea sound interesting! I´d only heard of Jasmine and of course all sorts of fruit teas.
    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp
    "Why make it simple if you can also make it complicated?"

  21. #21
    May be some info you can use here ??
    Has the old demo version also....For what good or not it may be:

    http://web.archive.org/web/200702241...easygauge.net/
    http://www.TheFreeFlightSite.com
    "Laissez les bon temps rouler"

  22. #22
    Hello Ivan,
    Hmmm... Pity about the trees and the flowers. I can´t forget what Geronimo said about that before anyone even worried about it. Then there´s the number of bees...

    The FW 200A Condor. I hadn´t thought about uploading the civilian version because it isn´t for combat, but with a parts count of 143.4% I´d probably run into trouble adding guns and ventral gondolas anyway.

    The panel that comes with, is by Pegasus Design - quite good except for the light greenish colouring - which may however be authentic. With the corresponding acknowledgements, I suppose it could take your 4 new RPM and ATA gauges. That would cure the gauge bug it has now. Here´s a screenshot of its present panel and gauges.
    Update: It may deserve a CFS1 .air file, so I will try making one for the upload - preferably NOT using an AI .air file... ehemm!
    4 x 1030 Hp Bramo Fafnir will be enticing. I could base the engine and prop parameters on the Do-17Z...

    Incidentally, under the RPM and ATA in each column of gauges, there´s an oil temperature one with the wording "Temp. Aceite", probably for the FW200A "Aibatara" that went to Brazil. All four seem to be at maximum all the time. Maybe, as you were asking, perhaps this would be a candidate for the next gauge given its practical use, if you were so inclined!

    Talking about bugs, I hope you´re getting better!

    BTW, if the rest abandoned making these gauges decades ago, all the greater merit for still doing so, especially as there are no gauge-making programs for them like for newer simulator gauges.

    Cheers,

    Aleatorylamp
    Last edited by aleatorylamp; March 16th, 2017 at 04:18.
    "Why make it simple if you can also make it complicated?"

  23. #23
    Hello Aleatorylamp,

    If the bees all die, we all die.....
    Until we figure out a way to find another planet to use up, we had better take good care of this one.

    I am still quite sick with a temperature at around 100 degrees F. Hopefully I can get rid of this bug soon.
    Last night and this morning it was Chrysanthemum Tea and some Earl Grey.

    Before concluding that the other gauges don't work, you might want to see how they behave with a CFS AIR File.
    Also check the numbers with Mr. Beckwith's Test Panel. Perhaps they are reading correctly but just out of range for the gauge?

    The FW 200 panel looks pretty well done.
    Heck, you are re-releasing an old 4 engine machine and I still haven't even released my first twin yet! ;-)

    There actually was a program to create gauges called "Easy Gauge" though no one seems to have a copy any more.
    The company apparently went away years ago.
    Gauges never really interested me until I needed ones that did not exist as stock versions, so I am really doing this to complete a couple of my own projects.... Which is why the next couple sets of gauges will be ones I can use for my own projects.
    The problem here as usual is that while I am a pretty good C programmer and can figure out the Panel SDK to some extent, I am absolutely terrible at doing bitmaps and that is where I need to work next.

    - Ivan.

  24. #24

    Of Boost Gauges and Atmospheres

    Hello Folks,
    I´m having some interesting problems trying to fine-tune a CFS1 .air for the engines of the FW200A: 9-cyl radial BMW-132A, 720 Hp at 2050 RPM, not geared, with a 1.2 ATA supercharger. Ceiling is 15000 ft because this passenger plane was not pressurized. Military versions had twice the MTOW and 2/3 more power.

    Well, Googling the equivalent of 1.2 ATA, I got 35.9 inches of mercury to put into the .air file. Strangely enough, the standard German CFS ATA gauges marked 1.22 ATA, as did Ivan´s new boost gauges, but the FS98 Gauges that came with a panel for this plane marked 1.2 ATA. In FS98 they marked 1 ATA, because FS98 has no superchargers. (Power was compensated to 750 hp beause of this in the FS98 .air file). Moreover, it seems that 1 ATA is not 1 Atmosphere after all...

    Consulting with Ivan, he mentioned that the equivalent value for aircraft of 1.2 ATA was 34.87 inches of mercury in the standard of measurement used for aviation engineers, but that there other standards of measurement in use... Oh deary me!, like my landlady used to say when I went to college in 1972.

    Of course, entering 34.87 for Max. Manifold pressure in the .air file, this time the CFS1 gauges and Ivan´s new ones, gave correct readings.

    I looked this up, and it seemed like a conspiration to drive us crazy... but I´m not paranoid anymore... I think...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standa...e_and_pressure
    The mind boggles: There are more than a dozen standards!

    I´m sure many of you will know about that, but there are probably just as many or more less illustrated ones like me who will benefit from this. >Slap!< Ha! What one knows is not necessarily true all the time!

    Just to mention a couple I found:

    A) The one Google uses: Why on earth this one????
    IUPAC (International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry) since 1982:
    Standard atmosphere: 750.06 mm of Hg, 14.5038 PSI or 29.530 mm Hg at Zero Degrees Centigrade or 32-F
    The 35.9 inches of mercury = 1.2 ATA at Zero Degrees Centigrade seem to come from here.

    B) This seems more realistic because not everyone is flying when it is freezing outside:
    ICAO (International Civil Aviation Organization) and EEA (European Environment Association), and FAA:
    Standard atmosphere: 760 mm of Hg, 14.6959 PSI or 29.921 in.Hg at 15 Degrees Centigrade or 59-F
    So here´s the 34.87 inches of mercury = 1.2 ATA at 15 Degrees Centigrade or 59-F, and seems the most reasonable.
    A bit cold outside... but that´s where aeroplanes fly.

    C) Yet another, which we had in Physics at school, because laboratories are at room temperature - it´s more comfy.
    NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology.):
    Standard atmosphere is 760 mm of Hg, 14.6959 PSI or 29.921 in.Hg at 20 Degrees Centigrade or 68-F

    D) And just to top things off:
    ATA is absolute atmosphere where the norm is the pressure of a 10-meter column of water.
    1 at:= 10 mWater = 1 kp/cm² = 9,80665 N/cm² = 0,980665 bar = 98.066,5 Physical atmosphere
    ATÜ is Overpressure above 1 atmosphere.
    ATU is Underpressure for pressure below 1 atmosphere

    And... there are other wierd combinations of 750 mm Hg (???) and different Temperatures used by the Gas Board and the Military...

    No wonder Einstein said something about the intelligence of humans, but I´m sure different countries use different standards to outsmart each other - that is more plausible.

    What a lovely and varied world we live in!
    Cheers,
    Aleatorylamp
    "Why make it simple if you can also make it complicated?"

  25. #25
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    yes, Ivan, that is the famous
    and infamous Sperry MK.III autopilot.
    as i said, i love its "authentic" appearance.
    unfortunately, the beast is too cumbersome
    to operate in the cfs scenario.

    okay, admittedly, the original unit,
    probably, had a complex procedure to follow
    in order for it to operate properly.
    not to mention, it, most likely,
    had to be monitored constantly
    to make sure it stayed on task.

    yup, it's true...i'm lazy.
    why would i want to dance around,
    when i could just click a couple buttons
    and get the same, if not better, results?
    a pretty face only goes so far.

    that said, i might add the Sperry ap
    to a panel as eye candy, but, certainly,
    would not recommend using the thing.
    it's a pity, actually, to have it relegated
    to being nothing more than a pin up
    on the wall of the shop statis.


    Stephan, i have to say, i am thankful
    for guys like you, Ivan and Hubbabubba,
    who delve into the deep reaches
    of air files, gauge programing,
    and the other complexities of cfs.
    it may not be my cup of tea,
    but, i'm right there in line
    to reap the benefits of your curious minds.
    thank you one and all for making cfs what it is.
    sometimes the magic works.
    sometimes it doesn't.

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