Kitty Hawk Class Aircraft Carriers

**DaveB** · July 26th, 2015, 09:36

Are you ok with Clemenceau, Foch and CDG Hooky? I can't think of any particular reason why things should slow down by the cat.. especially on these two as the blast shield is always up so no animation to get in the way. The French carriers are particularly 'busy' but they're pretty well optimised too. I get a bigger hit off Victorious 66 though little to none off Victorious 60.

ATB
DaveB

**Hooky722** · July 26th, 2015, 11:36

nope Foch Clemanceu fine as are FS Victorious and the CDG by RFN. I can't make sense of it The only thing I can think is its got something to do with them being complied in sketch up as they all seem to have that in common, But there again so was majestic and that's fine, I can't understand it and its really grinding my gears

Hooky

**DaveB** · July 26th, 2015, 12:48

Hooky..

You might be right. Sketchup is a fine modelling tool but models made in it are generally meant for static display and not for something like flightsim. Their poly count is higher than it could be as are drawcalls.. even when optimised. I made a rather extensive Porstmouth (and Southampton) using Sketchup models (I downloaded the models then converted them to FS mdl's using MCX) and it got to the point where I couldn't fly down the Solent without going OOM in short order!! I can handle 'one' ok with deck aircraft on my old i5 but I know it's there. Still.. they're not as heavy as Javiers Nimitzv2 or SDB's Big 'E'

ATB
DaveB

**Bjoern** · July 27th, 2015, 06:14

The empty Kitty model is nearly 20 MB in filesize with about 270k triangles and 580k texture vertices, producing 25 drawcalls. The static aircraft add another 360k triangles, 573k texture vertices and 16 drawcalls.
The Clemenceau model all in all has 190k triangles, 230k texture vertices and 251 drawcalls at 8.5 MB filesize.

The sheer amount of texture vertices is probably choking FSX.

- Edit:
Tried a vertex weld operation in MCX on one of the Kitty models. The program crashed when it reached its allocated memory limit. Great, eh?

**expat** · July 27th, 2015, 07:57

with all these american carriers I seem to be having Major Framerate issues started with the Oriskney a while back and carried on with Midway Forestall and Kitty hawk models the no issue with Lazurus majestic class or any Flying stations carriers it just seems to be the US ones i think the problem is located somewhere near the catapult

As a heavy user of these boats, I have observed the same behavior. It is after trapping and moving up to the cat that an FPS dorp is most noticeable, otherwise not too bad.

Separately, I also have problems with the AS A-3D Skywarrior (not with other a/c) hitting some kind of crash box on the Oriskany, Midway and Forrestal. I trap with crash detection on (more exciting/satisfying/bloody frustrating that way) and got a good one yesterday with the Whale (rare for me on anything smaller than the Nimitz and Big E) on the Kitty Hawk, but that has a bit more acreage on the deck, and my touchdown profile was - unusually in the whale - just right and and light as possible. Suspect it is the much wider wingspan of the A-3 hitting something invisible?

**DaveB** · July 27th, 2015, 08:50

Yup.. just did a quick test to confirm this. Landing on is no problem at all but as soon as I got level with the FLOLS.. my FR dropped to a little over 17fps and stayed there all the way to the bow. The model I used was in 'Launch' config so there was nothing visible on deck to drag the FR's down. Odd.. very odd.

ATB
DaveB

**navy81** · July 27th, 2015, 10:05

Dave, Wombraider, et al,
my problem was fixed by just copying the confd file directly from the unzipped download and pasting into the ai carriers conf'd folder, rather than creating separate entries - if that makes sense. All seems to be well now.
Attached are screenshots with repainted deck statics (lightened the overall color to more consistent with a light gull gray, and for the Connie, i selected VF-92 for the F-4, VA-165 for the A-6 and VA-146 for the A-7 liveries). Still working on liveries for the Kitty Hawk and some minor tweaks to these, and testing it since i will need two separate texture files for the different carriers.

More to follow in the next few days.
Very nice work and thanks for supplying the Kitty Hawk and Connie. Now, if we could just get an America and JFK... one can hope.

Deke

**DaveB** · July 27th, 2015, 10:32

Ohhhh.. I'm likin' that Deke!!

Got a soft spot for Connie.. we met up with her group in the Indian Ocean.. '74 or '75.. can't quite remember now. She put on a fabulous air display for us including a live firing..

Don't laugh.. camera's were not like they are now. This old lady only had a 50mm lens and you can see that can't you!!

ATB
DaveB

**DaveB** · July 27th, 2015, 10:35

Here's another shot to confirm your screenshot..

The BL deck code denotes HMS Blake

ATB
DaveB

**sparouty** · July 27th, 2015, 14:04

Originally Posted by Bjoern

The empty Kitty model is nearly 20 MB in filesize with about 270k triangles and 580k texture vertices, producing 25 drawcalls. The static aircraft add another 360k triangles, 573k texture vertices and 16 drawcalls.
The Clemenceau model all in all has 190k triangles, 230k texture vertices and 251 drawcalls at 8.5 MB filesize.

The sheer amount of texture vertices is probably choking FSX.

- Edit:
Tried a vertex weld operation in MCX on one of the Kitty models. The program crashed when it reached its allocated memory limit. Great, eh?

Hi,
You're probably right, the amount of textured vertices seems quite high regarding triangles. I'm carefully look at the ratio "textured vertices/triangles" which is, to my point of view a good indicator of mesh and mapping optimization.
The Drawcalls number is also interesting as it may shows how graphical resources are impacted, but... (there is always a "but") drawcalls number can be hard to be read as it can be highly increased by animations or visibility conditions.
That's why Clemenceau/Foch models have such high drawcalls without specific impacts on FPS : any animated parts (blastshield, shooters, FLOLS single light parts, etc...) generate drawcall but these extra drawcalls don't impact FPS as much as "basic" drawcalls. You have the same case with 3D cockpit model and all the switch animations that increase the number of drawcalls seen by MCX without any specific FPS hit.

When I modeled my carriers I didn't have a simple "recipe" for FPS, but I tried to follow some simple rules like:
- 1 texture per static aircraft model squadron =>meaning about 6 or 7 extra drawcalls max
- low poly modeling : 500 vertices max per crewman, 5000 vertices per airplane with exception for chopper or E-2C (which are not so many on the flight deck)
- vertices welding for each of my model object to decrease as much as possible the number of vertices
- try to optimize the mapping by reducing the number of textures used and by having simple/grouped mapping structure : having a mapping spread all over the texture map highly increases the number of textured vertices, the size of the mdl and at least, it may impact the FPS
Regarding this last point, I eared that mapping and material management aren't easy to handle with Skechtup....

Regards,
Sylvain

**Hooky722** · July 27th, 2015, 16:02

Originally Posted by navy81

Very nice work and thanks for supplying the Kitty Hawk and Connie. Now, if we could just get an America and JFK... one can hope.

Deke

Personally Deke I'm still hoping for A Hermes of some variation or Even Eagle or one of the Centaur class carriers.
Might be waiting a while

Hooky

**Hooky722** · July 27th, 2015, 16:05

Originally Posted by DaveB

Yup.. just did a quick test to confirm this. Landing on is no problem at all but as soon as I got level with the FLOLS.. my FR dropped to a little over 17fps and stayed there all the way to the bow. The model I used was in 'Launch' config so there was nothing visible on deck to drag the FR's down. Odd.. very odd.

ATB
DaveB

Thanks Dave, Yep that's exactly what I've been getting glad I'm not going crazy or that 'Old faithful' here (meaing my rig) isn't about to give up the chase.

Hooky

**WombRaider78** · July 27th, 2015, 16:10

I have also noticed this large drop in FPS. I am trying to chase it down. I thought at first it was a reflection problem. But I have ruled that out.

When I chase it down, I will make an update.

**Bjoern** · July 27th, 2015, 16:21

Originally Posted by sparouty

Regarding this last point, I eared that mapping and material management aren't easy to handle with Skechtup....

Yep. SKU uses a different philosophy for handling materials than a "real" 3D modeling tool.

I've exported the CV63 in OBJ format from MCX (91 MB!

) and loaded it into 3ds Max. I could bring the vertex count of the entire boat below 70k by joining all the parts together and welding all vertices within 1mm radius of each other. This, however, destroyed the materials (bad!) and produced a whole lot of double polygons (very bad!).
Reworking the Kitties to be a bit more performance friendly would probably take more time than simply doing an efficient model from scratch...

**expat** · July 28th, 2015, 03:57

Ohhhh.. I'm likin' that Deke!!

Me too! Those paints look great and VF-92 is a long time favorite for the phlyable (AS) phantom.

**sketchy** · July 28th, 2015, 05:15

Originally Posted by DaveB

Here's another shot to confirm your screenshot..

The BL deck code denotes HMS Blake

ATB
DaveB

Nice shot Dave, is this one of your personal ones that survived your Ex?

**DaveB** · July 28th, 2015, 08:41

Originally Posted by sketchy

Nice shot Dave, is this one of your personal ones that survived your Ex?

Hiya Fraser

Yes mate.. and the only reason it survived is because it's one of a handful I sent home to my mom and dad

This one might be more to your liking..

Sorry for dragging this a bit OT but the Seaking was taken at the same time!!
ATB
DaveB

**Essex** · July 28th, 2015, 10:54

Originally Posted by Hooky722

I'm still hoping for A Hermes of some variation

There is quite a nice Hermes available at the sketchup warehouse (with the same issues). Good luck.

**navy81** · July 28th, 2015, 13:00

Originally Posted by DaveB

Ohhhh.. I'm likin' that Deke!!

Got a soft spot for Connie.. we met up with her group in the Indian Ocean.. '74 or '75.. can't quite remember now. She put on a fabulous air display for us including a live firing..

Don't laugh.. camera's were not like they are now. This old lady only had a 50mm lens and you can see that can't you!!

ATB
DaveB

Dave - Nice!
Love the "wall of water". While the Phantom was great to watch, the A-6 was fantastic at showing how many fish you can kill in one pass (with 24 Mk 82's)..

Getting more work done on Wombraider's "fleet". Working on FID (Forrestal) now - will post a screenie in a few minutes. More tweaking to do on the Be-devilers of VF-74. Have VA-85 (A-6) and VA-83 (A-7) in pretty good shape. AFter that, then on to Sara (VF-31, VA-75, VA-37).

**DaveB** · July 28th, 2015, 13:17

That works for me mate

I can't remember the exact aircraft now but whatever it was.. it flew in the direction you see the Phantom flying in and dropped flares.. a whole string of the darned things.. then cleared off sharpish. Before we knew what was happening.. the Phantom appeared and opened fire on them!! Most impressive was the Vigilante. We were still in the same station to Connie (off her stbd quarter) and were told to look aft. It came in low, between the 2 ships, and was gone. God knows how fast it was going but it literally passed us and was a fair distance off before we heard it. Couldn't say if it went supersonic but it was damn fast.. damn loud too. Still gives me goosebumps thinking about it

ATB
DaveB

**navy81** · July 28th, 2015, 14:53

CAG-17 aboard Forrestal - works in progress.

VA-85 A-6E
VF-74 F-4J
VA-83 A-7E

Need to adjust some of the markings on the Phantom.

What are the chances of getting static aircraft sets (like Wombraider has provided) using 2 different mix sets?:
F-14
F-18
S-3
and
F-4
A-4
F-8

I know Guy Diotte has several Static AI models available on simviation. Anyhow, all of these will be made available once i am satisfied with all of them, and if anyone has a desire to create additional static sets (crowded, launch, recovery) for Forrestal class, Kitty Hawk class, and possibly Oriskany (minus the F-4's) - that would be something!
Deke

**WombRaider78** · July 28th, 2015, 17:54

Originally Posted by Bjoern

The empty Kitty model is nearly 20 MB in filesize with about 270k triangles and 580k texture vertices, producing 25 drawcalls. The static aircraft add another 360k triangles, 573k texture vertices and 16 drawcalls.
The Clemenceau model all in all has 190k triangles, 230k texture vertices and 251 drawcalls at 8.5 MB filesize.

The sheer amount of texture vertices is probably choking FSX.

- Edit:
Tried a vertex weld operation in MCX on one of the Kitty models. The program crashed when it reached its allocated memory limit. Great, eh?

While I do agree that Sketchup is a pretty bad program to make large detailed objects, there has got to be something causing this FPS drop. The whole carrier is not in view when the FPS drop happens, just the bow. I get a solid 30 FPS with almost maxed out settings on approach and every time the carrier is in full view. I am thinking maybe it is the blast shields. That would require a bit of editing, but it will also kill the blast shield.

**DaveB** · July 29th, 2015, 01:28

I wondered if the blast shield was causing it. TBH.. I don't think the models would suffer if it was left down mate

ATB
DaveB

**expat** · July 29th, 2015, 01:34

Let me just take a moment to express my gratitude to you for such fine work on the Kitty Hawk and Forrestal class carriers - really has helped fill the long standing gap between Nimitz and WWII boats. These are great freeware additions.

Re the FPS, my experience is very similar in that I don't notice much or any drop in frames on approach or when the boat is in full view and notice the drop very much around the blast shields.