Cost of developing - Page 2
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 75

Thread: Cost of developing

  1. #26
    SOH-CM-2020 gman5250's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    KMMH
    Age
    72
    Posts
    2,284
    Blog Entries
    4
    As a preface to offering my comment, I did read all of the above posts. All of the points expressed above illustrate the broad spectrum of perceptions regarding what this industry represents. All are valid.

    My comment will address the initial post.

    Up front I’ll admit to having entered, then quickly left the big developer arena. My reasons shall remain my own, other than to admit that I have committed to launching my own product line.

    The first consideration any business, large or small, must consider is cost benefit. If you are a mega corporation with massive resources to put behind a development initiative…you’ve already crunched the numbers. That tells me a lot.

    The number I’ve seen in the most recent “IPO” indicate that there is a sufficient customer base to justify an exploratory venture into the market. A cursory analysis of the market indicates that this is a consumer driven marketplace. As stated above, if it’s not freeware…there is an expectation of quality. This is where things get interesting.

    If you are an independent contractor, as I was in my first endeavor, the cost benefit is the key driver. The drawback is that you have no control over the business aspects of your product. You simply contract to deliver a thing and expect compensation for that thing. End of story. If the relationship is not to your liking, the highway runs both directions and you are free to contract differently.

    The small developer or new entry had better bring something to the table, because the whales are already out there, but you knew that when you entered the arena. The new developer needs to come to the arena well armed and well prepared. The beautiful thing here is that the opportunity to develop interesting niche products, and the demand is clearly being voiced by the community at large. All the small developer needs to do is fill the niche well. It’s not easy if you don’t have deep pockets, but it is do-able.

    The large developers and mega giants….well, they have the resources to dominate, but that is the nature of free market economics. That’s not going to change…..ever. The whales can afford the investment into market research and can also afford to take the hit when they miss the mark. They simply correct course and move forward.

    The wild card variable, as I see it is talent. The resume required to develop aircraft, scenery or any of the other necessary add-on software packages is staggering.

    Wanted

    Software developer, artist with journeyman level knowledge of Photoshop. Prefer IT background as well with coding experience. CAD experience required, must own your own professional level software. Prefer commercial level aviation certificate or equivalent. Understanding of all aspects of aviation including current multi engine jet, instrument certified. Must own and be able to operate sophisticated flight simulator with journeyman level understanding of underlying systems integration.

    Errr...yeah.

    In the case of the mega developer, the need to trim cost has become a driving factor in development cost because the competition has become finely attuned to its’ market and the race to the top is in full swing. So…now enters the “kid” who is enrolled in college. He gets a free copy of Autodesk 3DS…I had to pay full pop for mine, just to compete. The kid may or may not have a bootleg copy of PS as well because he’s jacked in to the matrix. I paid full pop for mine, and also sank nearly 5k into the box that runs all of this stuff. For a guy whose retirement is $368.00 per month…it’s a serious commitment.

    The whale is most likely going to favor the “kid” with the free software, because the kid can underbid me every time. I’m going to hold out for the money. Maybe or maybe not, the “kid” can produce a product that can compete with 50 years of airbrush, illustration and life experience. If the product is good enough, the kid makes a few bucks, the consumer is led to believe that this is state-of-the-art, the whale takes a cut and the market is determined by overall sales. Now, I’m at a disadvantage, because I legitimately cannot compete with someone who doesn’t have to pay for his tools. You can’t blame the people who hire the cheap labor, but this trend always results in a race to the bottom.

    All of that said, I’m firmly convinced that this market has room for anyone “bat guano crazy” enough to jump in. The fundamental numbers indicate that there is room to squeeze out a profit if you are a qualified entrepreneur.

    One factoid that is a drier for me. Historically, there are two areas that flourish in struggling economic climates. Alcohol and entertainment. I’m quietly confident that our little community qualifies here.

    The one thing that is clear is flight simulation is breaking up towards the exponential. Technology is expanding on that curve and the need to feed the tech is going to require…talent. The smart companies, large and small, will procure and respect their talent to ensure their long term survival. Companies who squander talent will eventually fall upon their own sword. It’s a self-leveling playing field.

    From what I can see, there are household name companies who are doing a spectacular job creating multiple level offerings that should surely please everyone, no matter what their preference. Others are not following a business trajectory that I would deem wise, but that’s my own opinion and not worth the price of a cup of coffee. There are small guys out there that continually offer wonderful products that satisfy my requirements for a reasonable price.

    In my case, I recognized a need in the market that is crying to be filled, so that’s the emphasis of my development work at the moment. At the same time, I’ll offer up the regular freebies to thank the community for being a great group of people.
    IMHO
    He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.
    Thomas Jefferson

    Intel Core i9-9900K Coffee Lake | Cooler MasterAir Maker 8 CPU Thermal Cooler | ASUS ROG Strix Z390-E LGA 1151 | CORSAIR Vengeance RGB Pro 32GB 288-Pin DDR4/3200 | EVGA GeForce GTX 1080 Ti 11GB | SAMSUNG 860 EVO Series M.2 1TB SSD | Mushkin Chronos 240GB 2.5 SSD | WD Black 2TB 7200 RPM |WD Black 5TB 7200 RPM | CORSAIR HX Series HX1200 PSU | Windows 10 HP 64-bit

  2. #27
    Will all of this comparison, between marketing, bigger-business, small business, freeware...
    Lots of what said just reminds me of my previous post , which closely highlighted similar topics.

    - Joseph
    VFR Simulations
    www.vfrsim.com



  3. #28
    Simmers are a diverse group of people and the range of addon choices reflect that. If eye candy planes like Alaebeo/Capt Sim were the only kind, this hobby wouldn't be what is, likewise if superduper study sims like A2A/PMDG were the only choices, this hobby wouldn't be what it is. The fact that both Alabeo and A2A are obviously doing fine and selling well, shows that the hobby market can sustain a wide range of developer types. If you don't like choice A, thats fine, there are lots of other choices.

    Call me naive but I don't really see many problems, at least none worth loosing a shirt about. This is a hobby after all, not serious life and death matters. Hobbies are supposed to be fun. If the hobby is not fun, then it's are not worth participating in. Its not like we are forced to only fly developer A's planes or use developer B's scenery.

    Its actually quite amazing when you think about it that something as complex as a PMDG airliner can run 'reasonably' smooth for a sim platform designed years ago, not to mention be compatible with the practically infinite number of different system builds out there.

    LOL you should see 'flight simulation' in Second Life, its laughable...very simplistic and arcade-like compared to what is achieved in FS, however lots of people in SL participate within it's aviation side of things and they seem to enjoy it. Enough enjoy it that there is a sizeable 'aircraft industry' in SL. It's not the fault of the people who make planes in SL that SL is such a restrictive environment to create complex things, matter of fact it is amazing what they can create with such limited resources and environment.

    I think the whole point of Cody's thread is just to stop and appreciate what we have in this hobby, not to compare who's is bigger or better. A lot of electronic/software based hobbies like this one die off at some point. This hobby has been fairly strong for a long time.

    Cheers
    TJ
    "The knack of flying is learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." - Douglas Adams
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  4. #29
    I think the whole point of Cody's thread is just to stop and appreciate what we have in this hobby, not to compare who's is bigger or better. A lot of electronic/software based hobbies like this one die off at some point. This hobby has been fairly strong for a long time.
    Bingo. I think everyone is entitled to their opinion of software they purchase, but I think we also need to ground ourselves. Like Ian, I tend to use different aircraft and scenery for different purposes. It keeps the hobby alive for me. If all I flew was my PMDG 737, I would rarely use my simulator. I still keep Mike's Mini-Max around for just this very reason. It's like picking which clothes you want to wear for the day. Sometimes you want to look dapper in a suit, and other times you just want to rock out in your pajamas.

    Call me naive but I don't really see many problems, at least none worth loosing a shirt about. This is a hobby after all, not serious life and death matters. Hobbies are supposed to be fun. If the hobby is not fun, then it's are not worth participating in. Its not like we are forced to only fly developer A's planes or use developer B's scenery.
    This is one reason I've mostly left the industry, although occasionally I'll do a favor.

    ********G, some advice if I may after having done marketing in this industry for so long. I've worked for new companies, and the ones that didn't become successful had a few things in common, even if they offered a good product. Primarily, it was not understanding how to market the product. What marketing they did get they didn't apply it properly. When you release a product, the first thing you should do is offer it to every review company at no charge to help get your name established. Second, any videos, ads or whatnot should be distributed as many places as possible. Most of the large companies start off by selling their product in house for a bit before making it available everywhere else, but they almost always sell it everywhere else.

    An old trick I used to do as a magician was to make the spectator feel like they were given a choice, even if those choices were controlled. If your website offers options for understanding the product, such as screenshots, video, good UI, etc., the customer feels empowered. Without fail, almost every company that didn't succeed failed somewhere in these lessons. You're going to spend a large portion of your time just getting people to know about the product, including perusing forums, making posts, etc. In my job alone, I must have spent 80% of my time doing things other than making videos, but it payed off. In short, no matter how good a product is, nobody will buy it if they don't know about it.

    Learn the lesson of other developers. I won't share full numbers, but I'll use the Flight1 Cessna Mustang as an example of an excellent product that performed poorly in sales. The marketing was there, as well as the devloping, etc., but it simply failed to find a large audience in the first year. There's an old saying in Hollywood for directors... "Make one for the studio, and one for you." I'm paraphrasing slightly, but it basically means to make money, so you can keep making what you want. Developers spend a lot of time trying to determine what they should make... Or at least, the most successful ones do.

    Take some time to determine what makes a particular business successful, then compare that to some of the companies that you don't hear much about. Don't just compare the products, but compare their advertising, websites, etc. This will pay off in the end. Mike (Lotus of Lotus Simulations) is a great example of someone who understood these things well, and his timing was impeccable along with the fact he offered new ideas to the market. He was a one hit wonder, but it wasn't because he wasn't professionally trained. I knew the guy for years, and he came out of the gaming business and had an eye for design and marketing. Unfortunately he seems to have moved on, but I'm happy for him because last I understood he was travelling around the world doing the things that he enjoyed most.

    Good luck.

  5. #30
    the most important acronym these days especially is ROI - return on investment.

    this is likely why Alabeo has switched from recreating the lesser known, rare but beautiful aircraft they initially offered and gone 'Cessna' -

    it is also the reason why some products fall short even of what the developer making them could have done, once they tried to guess what the ROI would eventually be..after promotions and theft.

    since these are all valid reasons, and entirely out of my control, I try to be satisfied with what I get for my 20 bucks - its also why I never spend more than that on any one aircraft or scenery - and why I stay with the 3-4 developers I trust (or who trust me)
    enter..the Sandman

    visit Heywood Planes - YouTube

  6. #31
    SOH-CM-2020 gman5250's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    KMMH
    Age
    72
    Posts
    2,284
    Blog Entries
    4
    Quote Originally Posted by CodyValkyrie View Post

    ********, some advice..............Good luck.

    Thank you sir for your generous advice. I have take the liberty to archive the contents of your statement for further reference. When I was in business in my former life I did all of my own R&D, development, marketing, promoting, print & web design...everything.

    That experience was useful, but the counsel of those who have actually been in the trenches is, by far, more valuable.

    This entire post is probably the most intelligent and enlightening I have seen to date at this site.
    He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.
    Thomas Jefferson

    Intel Core i9-9900K Coffee Lake | Cooler MasterAir Maker 8 CPU Thermal Cooler | ASUS ROG Strix Z390-E LGA 1151 | CORSAIR Vengeance RGB Pro 32GB 288-Pin DDR4/3200 | EVGA GeForce GTX 1080 Ti 11GB | SAMSUNG 860 EVO Series M.2 1TB SSD | Mushkin Chronos 240GB 2.5 SSD | WD Black 2TB 7200 RPM |WD Black 5TB 7200 RPM | CORSAIR HX Series HX1200 PSU | Windows 10 HP 64-bit

  7. #32
    I have spent most of my working life, some 40+ years, in advertising and marketing. Working for ad agencies at the coal face and at boardroom level in domestic and international markets. I guess there are a couple of pointers I can pass on to anyone starting out on this journey.

    They apply to any business whatever the category that has a need to sell product or service.

    1) Brand awareness. How can anybody buy what you have to sell if they don't know who the hell you are?
    2) Point of difference. Even if you do get them to recognise you, why should they buy your product as opposed to the next guy's?

    It's pretty simple stuff but has been law for as long as I can remember, Way before computers, that's for sure. And it has nothing whatsoever to do with the cost of production.

    Anyone with a small business that uses social media and in particular web-based Facebook pages, will know how hard it is to recruit people to their sites. The internet is not the golden goose people think. It is still very easy to hide your brand there with very little awareness.

    And then, even if you do attract say, 1,000 people to your site, how many of those can you persuade to buy? Precious few believe me.

    If anybody is game enough to try this business just remember those two simple laws. Without them, you're dead in the water.


  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by bazzar View Post
    Anyone with a small business that uses social media and in particular web-based Facebook pages, will know how hard it is to recruit people to their sites. The internet is not the golden goose people think. It is still very easy to hide your brand there with very little awareness.
    So true. I always treated my YouTube channel as being a product itself, even if the name I use is less than adequate. Funny enough, I've only made about $100 from YouTube, but that was never the point. The point was to draw attention to the videos I crafted, which drew viewers to the products I was advertising. My money came from the clients, and everything I did was aimed at making my clients money, and that meant keeping up with social sites. I'll be honest, it was a complete pain in the ass sometimes and sucked up a ton of my time. I ended up with a few thousand subscribers and a few million video views, so the efforts paid off.

  9. #34
    Didn't quite escape.
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Somewhere in the Middle, UK
    Age
    50
    Posts
    2,342
    I posted myself about the costs involved in getting into this hobby - at a freeware level, forget anything else - slightly before Blender2FSX was released. You cannot be an expert at all levels of FS development. Heck, flight dynamics design takes at least three dark rituals and an entire flock of chickens per aircraft model (I managed to make a badly flying model into a not flying model and gave up), then you have to take into account that much of the gauge and systems coding now has to be inside the model itself, which many people do expect far too much from, IMO. You need thousands of hours of experience in numerous fields and using professional level tools for each of them, which is impossible. Therefore you team up with others who do have that experience, which spreads the profit very thinly indeed, for most products.

    One problem in this hobby is that minorities do tend to be very vocal about the fact that "everyone" wants what they want. Apparently, "everyone" in the FS world uses VATSIM. A very tiny fraction do in reality. "Everyone" wants air racing. "Everyone" wants multiplayer combat. "Everyone" is in a VA, flies GA, flies classics, flies glass cockpits, flies steam cockpits, wants ultimate complexity, wants 'ctrl-e' aircraft, wants helicopters, flying boats, airliners. "Everyone" wants <insert type of product here> and it's never true. The only thing "everyone" wants is an open platform that allows people to build what we all, as individuals, want! We have a vast array of desires, a vast array of experience, knowledge and capability. That's a good thing. There's plenty of room and scope for everyone. Freeware, however, isn't doing so well. The costs and expectations of freeware are ever escalating and people really do want every freeware release to be payware quality. I've found myself not flying freeware aircraft because the gauges are blurred, or because I can't click switches to do important flight tasks in the cockpit, so I'm as guilty as pretty much all of us are... But it's freeware that the payware developers start in.

    Because products have reached such a high quality, the hobby has made a rod for its own back. Everything now has to be of that level. Except that it doesn't. I've said before, I regularly fly default aircraft. Unfortunately there are almost no freeware aircraft of the types that I most often like to fly - because 'the market' demanded payware quality, which made the developers either stop developing or go commercial. I do pretty low-end freeware. I've spent tens of thousands of pounds and lost count of the number of hours, building up the resources and knowledge to be able to create what I do. I have the utmost respect for those who create far better than I do, whether they're payware or freeware.

  10. #35
    Members +
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Cape Town, South Africa
    Age
    71
    Posts
    1,311
    A most interesting read. many thanks for that.
    Our hobby is very diverse, with many searching for the holy grail in aircraft & scenery. I bit tip of the hat for all the developers out there that have large shoulders to bear the brunt of our needs.

    Something to consider. Is our hobby on 3 levels? Those 'A2A, PMDG'rs that want, expect & demand the very best? the intermediate'rs that are not so critical & maybe sail & drive as well as fly? (the fun simmers, for want of a better name). Then the so called newbies. The new simmers that are dipping their toes into the hobby & need a bit of simplicity to avaid scaring them off.

    I think it is very difficult for developers nowdays to decide where their product will fit, nevermind deciding for which sim to develop for.

    It's actually a 2 fold problem. We need/would like more people to join our hobby, maybe at a 'nursery' level & we need more developers to feed our constantly growing needs.

    Somewhere out there amongst guys coming into our hobby are our future developers. We need to encourage more to join us & also to encourage all thos efreeware developers out there. We tend not to bother with them, as we possibly think that, because it's free, it cannot be any good.

    Anyhow, just a few random thoughts...

  11. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by IanP View Post
    You need thousands of hours of experience in numerous fields and using professional level tools for each of them, which is impossible. Therefore you team up with others who do have that experience, which spreads the profit very thinly indeed, for most products.<insert type="" here="" product="" of="">
    Ian, you've articulated the difficulties most eloquently. After several years of "freeware" work, followed by over ten years of "professional" work, I believe that I've achieved at least journeyman level in 3D modeling and gauge/systems programming. I remain at an advanced apprentice level in artwork/texture development, and am woefully ignorant of FDE and sound work, which explains why I work for one company on several projects rather than trying to be a Lone Wolf independent developer.

    I've lost count of the number of incredibly naïve folks who come to places such as FS Developer and ask "Can someone help me develop a PMDG level XXX? Please provide step by step instructions."

    When advised to start out by using Milton's marvelous C162 tutorial as a starting point on their journey, either they never come back to post again, or they insist that they want to build an A380 or some such really complex heavy... with fully modeled VC and systems of course.

    Rare are those who are actually willing to put in the intense amount of effort to learn though. Those few are joyfully received and assisted as much as possible. A couple of them now work for Milviz.
    </insert>
    Bill Leaming
    3d Modeler Max/GMax
    C & XML Gauge Programmer

    Military Visualizations
    http://milviz.com

    Intel® Core™ i7-3770k 4.2GHz - Crucial 16GB DDR3 - Dual Radeon HD770 1GB DDR5 (Crossfire) - Eco II Watercooling - Win7 64bit
    Intel® Core™ i7-2600k 3.4GHz - Crucial 8GB DDR3 - NVIDIA EVGA GTX-770 SC 4GB - Win7 64bit

  12. #37
    I'll break this down mathematically, for those logic minded people:

    Let's use a realistic scenario of a detailed aircraft that not many people are interested in for whatever reason, but it took a year to develop. The product only manages to get 1,000 sales. The product itself sales for $49.99.

    $49.99 x 1,000 = $49,990. This is your gross income.
    Let's throw in taxes now (I'm using 30% to make this easy). $49,990 x .7 = $34,993.
    You need to pay your modeler and coder since you didn't pay them hourly, and you agreed to 25% of sales each, which comes to an additional 50% each. $34,993 x .5 = $17,496.50
    Let's drop out the cost of marketing, so let's just say $1,250 for video, banner ads, the whole shabang (so cheap, and probably unrealistic). You're now at $16,246.50.

    That's $16,246.50 for a whole year of developing. Now you have a pissed off coder and modeler because of poor sales, you still haven't paid your host and possibly business associates or investors, etc. Could you sustain this business? Not without making multiple products at once, and possibly much simpler ones. For a new company, sales are generally much smaller than that, so you have to consider that as well if you haven't established yourself out of the gate. Now you understand why most people do this on the side. If you have a secure income, adding a few thousand dollars to your income becomes very realistic, but it's not necessarily sustainable full time. This was the issue I ended up running into, as right after I started going full time, Microsoft threw their chips into Flight and subsequently bailed out of the industry. It was a bad gamble, and a lot of developers slowed production or outright left. What money there was to make dropped, and the further I went down the road, the less financially secure I was.

    I don't know if anyone noticed, but since the Flight debacle, most companies (based in English speaking countries or Europe where that money doesn't get you far) slowed production down or outright stopped. Remember how quickly addons were coming out about 4 years ago? If you live in other countries however, that money can go a lot further.

    For anyone using this as their only source of income, I envy you for making it work. Outside of the much larger publishers, or the rare independent company, that is a very hard thing to do. I have just as much respect for freeware developers, since you're not making a dime on this but still putting forward all of the problems associated with development.

  13. #38
    Senior Administrator Willy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    West Tennessee, near KTGC
    Age
    67
    Posts
    11,622
    Quote Originally Posted by huub vink View Post

    Something tells me I'm not the only one who sometimes loves simplicity.

    As a painter and I sometimes offer my services to freeware developers. Some projects lasted nearly two years, during which the texture layout changed several times. Countless hours I must have spend on these projects. Nevertheless I have enjoyed every single one of them. I've learned a lot during these project and I regard painting as my hobby. And what is better than being able to spend time on your hobbies.

    Personally I don't have a problem to spend money on a thing I consider a hobby. The software I use to make my repaints with is paid for. And when I look at the hours I have used it, it was most probably a better buy than MS Office. The complete MS Office package contains quite some programs I hardly use.

    ............

    Cheers,
    Huub
    I'm all for simple myself.

    Most of my repaint tools are old and purchased long ago. For what I do, they still serve me well although I'll use one program for one thing and another for something else. Just my personal preferences when painting. And now that I finally figured I had a handle on doing bare metal for FS9, I get to start all over again with FSX.

    Yep, just a hobby that I enjoy doing and when I quit enjoying it, it will be time to find something else to do. I work at it at my own pace and often get sidetracked with other aspects of FS. But that's okay, if I ever get FS like I want it, it'll be time to quit. lol
    Let Being Helpful Be More Important Than Being Right.

  14. #39
    Here's the thinking as I ( one person out of a possible 7 billion human beings so my opinion counts for nowt... If i were a kardashian then p'raps ) see it.

    1. Developers need to be passionate about either the game , gaming in general , the subject or in my case the actual art of making something look as close to the real thing. You shouldnt be in this "business" if your basis is ROI, fiscal management and time management and seeing your family.

    2. The sim world is very similar to the automotive business/worlds. There are cars like the caterham 160 which are low power, low systems but an absolute hoot to drive apparently and if you live in a country other than australia are relatively cheap and road registerable. Then you have the other end of the spectrum. The cars that feature on top gear and have a 700 page manual just so you know how to top up the windscreen washer reservoir. With the cost to match. So. Both cars ( sim products ) are legitimate. Both have their detractors. Both have their fans. Both can live side by side in the market. What I think the issue is that the vocal minority are wanting lamborghini performance/detail/system/pose value on a hyundai budget. And when this doesnt happen they get vocal on their blog/forum of choice. Which leads me into part 3.

    3. Devs have tougher skin than you think. I run the help desk at AH. I know for a fact that people are different on forums/blogs than they are even in one on one emails.

    Lastly. too much hand wringing not enough developing. Get back to work .

  15. #40
    SOH-CM-2024 WarHorse47's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Great Pacific Northwest
    Age
    77
    Posts
    3,645
    Quote Originally Posted by CodyValkyrie View Post
    I'll break this down mathematically, for those logic minded people:
    Thanks for the compliment..

    Quote Originally Posted by CodyValkyrie View Post
    Let's use a realistic scenario of a detailed aircraft that not many people are interested in for whatever reason, but it took a year to develop. The product only manages to get 1,000 sales. The product itself sales for $49.99.
    Here is where my logic breaks down. I'm not so sure your scenario is realistic.

    You are using an example (scenario) of a "detailed aircraft that not many people are interested in for whatever reason." I'd be curious to know how developers pick the product to develop. I've got tons of Mustangs from several developers, but nobody has yet produced a P-61 Black Widow.

    It seems that there is no science behind the choice of what aircraft to develop, or at least I'm unaware of any survey's that have been conducted. I'd also be curious to see the sales numbers on known payware aircraft to get some feel for how these really sell. I know what my favorites are, but I don't think I represent the average consumer.

    And is one year a reasonable timeframe to develop a detailed aircraft? That would depend on the resources I would think. How many hours do the coder and modeler actually spend on the product? If they were paid by the hour, would it make any difference?

    Got me curious now.
    -- WH

    If at first you don't succeed, try, try,try again. ... or go read the manual.

  16. #41
    I'll use some vague information to help, if I may. I have to be careful what I say, however, because it is in the best interest to not divulge client information about such things.

    I can, however, tell you from experience that a P-51 Mustang will outsell pretty much every other warbird of that era, and might be superseded by a GA aircraft (depending on which model). There's also the issue of timing. The L-39 is a perfect example of that. At the time it was introduced, there wasn't many fighter/trainer jets available for FS, and the model brought new ideas to the industry that changed it in some ways (people's expectations that is).

    When a developer develops an aircraft, they take risks and weigh that against known variables such as previous sales. The 377 from A2A Simulations is an example that I can publicly speak about. It was admittedly a risky move, and the company knew it. It turned out okay because of technology and timing, but if you want perhaps an idea of how successful it is against say, the P-51, compare the posts counts on A2A's forum and factor that in with how old the products are. Naturally, I can't reveal any real information from any company I've worked for unless we've stated it publicly, but yes these decisions are very carefully weighed, and it's exactly why we haven't seen any P-61s (despite my desire to also have one).

    As for hourly wages, I almost never accepted them. I hated being bound to a contract with a company, and I'm sure they equally agreed. In this case, my product was the video, and I was generally paid in full at the completion of it (or half and half, depending on the contract). By being bound to sales or hours, it placed new constraints on me that I didn't desire, and also bound me to the company further than I was willing to go. I don't want to hand over time sheets and send in expenditures to my clients. In the few cases I did, where I was tied to the success of sales or an hourly rate, I was either too expensive for clients, or it turned out VERY bad for both parties (a subject I'm reluctant to get into). Being per job based allowed me the freedom to work with many different companies and not tie myself to one. Plus, once the check was in the mail, my expectations were met until the next project came up. This was FAR simpler for my clients and I, and made transactions and business very straight forward with no frills. As for my services, that depended a lot on the client and their budget. Needless to say, I never advertised price for this reason. Far too complicated and personal to just put a price on and advertise it, and my services were far more broad than a mere "video" production in most cases.

  17. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by WarHorse47 View Post
    Thanks for the compliment..



    Here is where my logic breaks down. I'm not so sure your scenario is realistic.

    You are using an example (scenario) of a "detailed aircraft that not many people are interested in for whatever reason." I'd be curious to know how developers pick the product to develop. I've got tons of Mustangs from several developers, but nobody has yet produced a P-61 Black Widow.

    It seems that there is no science behind the choice of what aircraft to develop, or at least I'm unaware of any survey's that have been conducted. I'd also be curious to see the sales numbers on known payware aircraft to get some feel for how these really sell. I know what my favorites are, but I don't think I represent the average consumer.

    And is one year a reasonable timeframe to develop a detailed aircraft? That would depend on the resources I would think. How many hours do the coder and modeler actually spend on the product? If they were paid by the hour, would it make any difference?

    Got me curious now.
    We've been over this many times but here are the plain facts:

    A professional 3D modeller will charge anywhere between $30 and $60 per hour, many charge more, depending on the circumstances. If an average quality model takes let's say 1000 person hours to make, it is a simple task to see how much the base cost would be. Way outside the park for most developers and publishers.

    If a title sells 250 copies, as a small operator, you're doing OK. At $20 ticket price per that would be a gross income of $5,000 before taxes and expenses such as programming, texture artists, sound engineers and then the costs of promoting and selling the product. You can see where this is going.

    Most modelers commissioned to work on flight sim projects, therefore, will work for a percentage of the product's net income after taxes, paid as royalty. This is beer money for most and cannot provide a full-time living without a "day-job" of some description. This impacts on the time available for these people to work on flight sim projects which is why production times become what they are. Also, unfortunately, many countries now charge a royalty tax which can be deducted at source before the modeller receives their royalty commission.

    So in answer to your query, hourly rates cannot work in this business, ever, unless we are talking about maybe $5 per hour? Yeah right.

    Professional modelling software can cost thousands of dollars for one seat.

    A mutually agreed price for the job is usually negotiated or, as I have outlined, a royalty agreement is entered into, based on sales percentages.

    Just as a side comment, whenever you see "best-sellers" lists in third-party sellers' websites, you would be astonished at the actual figures involved - this is a VERY small market.

    Choice of subject is not usually random, it is based on research to indicate what sells and what does not. The community on the whole is quite conservative and the biggest buyers are those who "fly" airliners or belong to virtual airline groups or the remaining numbers who like to use GA aircraft to get about their virtual worlds. Military is actually quite restricted, usually to fast jets.

    It is a brave soul who ventures into the realms of rare, unusual subjects with an aim to make any income. Best left to freeware developers who have the time and good graces to do the work for nothing.

    I would refer you back to the latter half of point number 1) in my learned colleague's earlier post. That really is the point.

  18. #43
    Well made points Baz. I don't think any developer would hate the business, so to speak, unless they are making plans to leave it. I think most of us love what we do, even if we barely scrape by. This can be a bridge too far for some people, but occasionally someone will be successful enough to go full time. Most of the only full time members in this work are very successful owners or publishers, but I'd imagine 90% of the people in this industry have another primary income. My most successful years were when I had another job. The extra dosh was great for vacations, but the biggest mistake I made was going full time. It nearly ruined my love for the hobby.

  19. #44
    This is an interesting topic.

    The PMDG MD-11 is an example of this. That MD-11 was a fantastic addon, it was unique, not your run of the mill Boeing or Airbus, it ran on moderate systems well with decent frames. The PMDG 777 for all its awesomeness does require a pretty high end rig to run at it's potential. However the MD-11 was a poor seller, much like it's real world counterpart. Those who own the PMDG MD-11 love it and have been begging PMDG to give it some updating, however PMDG has been quite clear they will not touch this project again. It's too bad that such a unique well built addon has to be let go in favor of more generic 'common in real life' aircraft.

    To their credit, PMDG is pursuing the DC-6, which I hope sells well. I also hope vintage aircraft fans here consider getting the PMDG DC-6 too. The more support we can show PMDG for this project, the more likely they will do some vintage planes in the future, because the majority of their customer base wants modern day common airliners. Hopefully PMDG can find a balance with this like A2A, build the common Liners and GAs ie 747 and Comanche, use the profits from those popular projects for the 'exotic' stuff...ie DC-6, AT-6...etc.

    Cheers
    TJ
    "The knack of flying is learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." - Douglas Adams
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  20. #45
    Didn't quite escape.
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Somewhere in the Middle, UK
    Age
    50
    Posts
    2,342
    Equally interestingly, though, Robert Randazzo has stated that the DC-6 will be a "comparatively light" package, compared to their other airliners - it will not be to the same level of complexity as their Boeings, or the A2A Accu-Sim B377. It's also actually only been definitively confirmed as being their first package for X-Plane 10. Everyone is expecting it to be FSX/P3D, as well, but it was noted by many people that this was not explicitly stated when the product was announced for XP.

    Regardless of what platform it is on, the fact that it has been repeatedly stated it will not be a "full complexity" model says a lot about the profit that PMDG expect to make from it.

    Ian P.

  21. #46
    A very interesting discussion. It seems I'm not yer average simmer, since GA and "big iron" hold little interest for me. Warbirds and the more idiosyncratic civils are more appealing, the An-2 as an example since I couldn't help but laugh out loud first time I saw a real one fly. This ancient-looking single-engined crate rolled out on to the runway farting and banging, rolled what looked like 50 feet, lifted steeply off the ground and kept climbing. The landing approach was even steeper.

    I also build FS models as a hobby and after reading Cody's contributions I'm going to keep it that way. If others enjoy the (freeware) results that's fine, but I'm not going to fool myself that my taste in aircraft will sell shedloads in the FS market. As Tim Conrad put it: the freedom of freeware. I'm also sad to read elsewhere that beautiful models like Lionheart's Lear don't sell very well: he puts heart and soul into work like that and the sales returns don't justify it. Sigh.
    Tom
    __________________________________________________ ___________________________________________
    Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. Proverbs 4:7



  22. #47
    Thanks Tom! "The freedom of freeware" hmmm...
    dutcheeseblend.blogspot.nl

    Living by the grace of our Lord

  23. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by IanP View Post
    ...It's also actually only been definitively confirmed as being their first package for X-Plane 10. Everyone is expecting it to be FSX/P3D, as well, but it was noted by many people that this was not explicitly stated when the product was announced for XP.

    Regardless of what platform it is on, the fact that it has been repeatedly stated it will not be a "full complexity" model says a lot about the profit that PMDG expect to make from it.

    Ian P.
    Actually, he did say it's going to be for FSX/P3d as well.

    Quote from RRs post on the DC6 for X-Plane thread...
    The PMDG Classics DC-6B is the lead off product in a new breed of products for PMDG that will bring some "old school" aviation to our product lines for Xplane, FSX and Prepar3D. This product will drop for XPlane first- but shortly after will release for FSX and Prepar3D as well- making it the first PMDG product to appear on three different simulation platforms. (We count FSX and FSX-SE as a single platform...)

  24. #49
    Senior Administrator huub vink's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Noordwijk, The Netherlands (EHVB)
    Age
    65
    Posts
    10,330
    Int this thread I have seen several financial overviews a discussion about software. But what I miss in this thread is the word "fun". I create repaints because I think it is fun to create something. Am I the only one who is having fun?

    A puzzled,
    Huub


  25. #50
    That is a question that doesn't need to be asked Huub.

    If you aren't having fun doing what you do, don't do it. After 40 years doing unthankful things and changing to 3D, I don't stop smiling.

Members who have read this thread: 1

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •