I wonder!

[mvg3d]

Manuelle , u probably are right, but seems there are contradictions. I`ve read the files but... read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CANT_Z.1007 But there is not problem, torpedoes will be removed.
Cheers
Mario

Hi Mario,

From Your link :

"The Z.1007 could also carry two 454 mm (17.7 in), 800 kg (1,760 lb) torpedoes slung externally under the belly in an anti-shipping role, an option never used in service."

This is COMPLETELY WRONG !!!! The writer probably did a "brutal" "cut & paste" from the SM.79 or similar (both the "Gobbo" and SM.84 had the possibility to carry two torpedoes, but this configuration was NEVER used by R.A.), the '1007 NEVER had external pylons under the belly and it was impossible for the plane to Carry TWO torpedoes (NO space in the bomb bay).... R.A. tested the torpedo launch from '1007 and '506 and the results were completely negative.

[Blood_Hawk23]

It's all looking good Mario.

I have a question. Can you get dimensions from Gmax to aid in making damage boxes for your damage profile?
I'm thinking possibly x.y, and z numbers. Engine locations, cockpit, etc.

For me this is always the most time consuming. Try, try, and try again can make one nuts.

Have any tricks?

I have done this with my DPs. And it has worked fine. as long as the scale is correct in GMax you should be fine. I've done this with stuart's ships and it works great.

[Blood_Hawk23]

I'm nearing the end. But I do not think even the weekend ready.
BloodHawk ... Can i use your weapons?
Cheers
Mario

Sorry I didn't see this sooner Misson. Yes they are Manuele's originaly. So by all means feel free to use them. With any of his models.

I need to upload the pack.

[Blood_Hawk23]

Hi Mario,
Congratulations for Your hard job, but, please, remember that '1007 (and '506) NEVER launched torpedoes.....
Please take a look to the history files enclosed in both the original FS9 packages for the standard loads.

CANT Z.506
The books I have only say that it could carry a torpedo. Not if it was ever used. 1200kg (2,645 lbs) bombs or a Torpedo. This is for the Z.506B Airone.

CANT Z.1007
Max bomb loads 1200kg (2,645 lbs) internal or 1000kg (2,205 lbs) external. This is for the Z.1007bis Alcione.

I can't find any more then that in the books I have. Though they are just for reference and not a "be all, end all" source of information.

I know a lot of times, things were tested just to say "See it can do that" and never get used once in service. Think of it as a selling point. They wanted their plane in production so they throw in a lot of bells and whistles. Most of which are not useable out side of the RnD stage.

[gaucho_59]

This one is for Mario...
Comments welcome...as always, artwork available per PM request... (provided you do not object as it is part of a project of yours)


BTW... the original by Manuele Villa... it seems he has found the time machine!!! the aircraft is a WW1 type (I think) and it sports the pic of a
gal some 2O years into the future... lol
Ah, almost forgot... about that bomb aimer's position on the Cant... I can do the artwork for that...

G.

[mvg3d]

This one is for Mario...
BTW... the original by Manuele Villa... it seems he has found the time machine!!! the aircraft is a WW1 type (I think) and it sports the pic of a
gal some 2O years into the future... lol
Ah, almost forgot... about that bomb aimer's position on the Cant... I can do the artwork for that...

Hi Gaucho,

I HAVE NO TIME MACHINE !!! You simply shown the panel base bmp WITHOUT gauges, when I made the panel I left intentionally my '30 pinup as signature, hiding her in the simulation with the gauge.

Has "Someone" removed the original gauge from panel.cfg ?

In ALL the original panel cfg You can find the following strings :
gauge07=SVA_MVG!mvg_Nonna, 621,598,103,134 (in 2D panel)
and this
gauge09=SVA_MVG!mvg_Nonna, 300,300,185,246 (in VC)

The original gauge contains the following bmp, the woman in the Picture was my Grandmother and the photo is dated 1918 :

[gaucho_59]

No need for anger... lol I just worked on the bmp I got from Mario... and I was just joking... didn't think it was in bad taste man!!!

If you allow me... I will use your gramma's pic...

btw...

in reviewing the textures Mario sent me... I noticed that the ribbing is WAY TOO thick... the wings look like a corrugated zinc roof...
if a wing were like that... the plane just would not get off the ground... the amount of parasitic eddy currents generated by such a surface
would really impede lift to a great extent... also... the leading the top wing leading edge on the cockpit is scalloped... not very aerodynamic either... the leading edge has to be as straight and smooth as possible so the initial airlift flow is smooth... (the texture wings are smooth edged.. and OK)
However.... on doped fabric surfaces the highest point is the rib... so THERE is where light shines most.. and then the surface smoothly darkens
as it goes down to the sort of minimal trough created between the ribs... this high point point has to be very SUBTLY represented...
in all... albeit the wing surface not being perfectly flat it is not too terribly scalloped at all...

notice the difference on the reworked pic I am enclosing... that is what you would want it to look like...




The sides of the plane seem to be wooden... so what are the little dots in it... nails? obviously cannot be rivets... and if they are screws
there are nightmarishly hundreds of them... lol

G. (not t'incazzare Manuele.... io sto solo scherzando)

[mvg3d]

[misson]

I sent a link of the conversion to Manuelle , Bertrand and John for download and check of the package.
Perhaps this weekend we have a upload.
Cheers
Mario

[Blood_Hawk23]

I sent a link of the conversion to Manuelle , Bertrand and John for download and check of the package.
Perhaps this weekend we have a upload.
Cheers
Mario

Looks good so far. I have to run it in game before I can see more. I'll get back to you.



SVA5...

I'm hoping to get a book on Italian WWI history. It has weapon spec for bombs and such. See my other post on that. I'm still waiting for an email back from them.

[Blood_Hawk23]

No need for anger... lol I just worked on the bmp I got from Mario... and I was just joking... didn't think it was in bad taste man!!!

If you allow me... I will use your gramma's pic...

btw...

in reviewing the textures Mario sent me... I noticed that the ribbing is WAY TOO thick... the wings look like a corrugated zinc roof...
if a wing were like that... the plane just would not get off the ground... the amount of parasitic eddy currents generated by such a surface
would really impede lift to a great extent... also... the leading the top wing leading edge on the cockpit is scalloped... not very aerodynamic either... the leading edge has to be as straight and smooth as possible so the initial airlift flow is smooth... (the texture wings are smooth edged.. and OK)
However.... on doped fabric surfaces the highest point is the rib... so THERE is where light shines most.. and then the surface smoothly darkens
as it goes down to the sort of minimal trough created between the ribs... this high point point has to be very SUBTLY represented...
in all... albeit the wing surface not being perfectly flat it is not too terribly scalloped at all...

notice the difference on the reworked pic I am enclosing... that is what you would want it to look like...




The sides of the plane seem to be wooden... so what are the little dots in it... nails? obviously cannot be rivets... and if they are screws
there are nightmarishly hundreds of them... lol

G. (not t'incazzare Manuele.... io sto solo scherzando)

The pic in Manuele's post look like it could be screws. did they have screws in WWI? I don't know really. At any rate, they seem to be everywhere.

Is that the top of the wing or the underside? I think its just real thin canvas mixed with bad lighting thats giving the look of not being smooth. The first pic shows a smooth wing surface. The rest just look like the Spars show through a thin clear dope canvas. This might not be the original canvas if this was a restored aircraft. Might have to look for some vintage photos.

After looking at the tail it would suggest its been restored. The canvas don't look the same. one is clearly whiter then the other. maybe just different lots. who knows.

[Captain Kurt]

Guys,

What you see on the SVA wing are rib tapes, not the ribs. On fabric covered wings, the fabric is stitched to the wing ribs (you didn't think it was just pasted over the ribs, did you?). The rib tape is then placed over the stitching and doped down to cover the stitches to both protect the stitch cord from abrasion but also to smooth the wing surface and reduce parasite drag (no such thing as parasitic eddy in aircraft parlance, that's an electrical term). This is standard fabric aircraft covering procedure. I know first hand as I have built two fabric covered airplanes - a Starduster II and an AcroSport II.

The reason it is so visually prominent on the SVA wing is that the wing is clear doped allowing all detail of the fabric application to be easily seen. When colored dope is painted on the wing it blends the tape and the background fabric into one color and makes it harder to discern the tape. But I guarantee it is there.

Yes those are nails in the fuselage. The SVA fuselage formers were made of wood braced with internal guy wires. The skin of the SVA was a thin plywood which was glued over the fuselage framework and held firmly to the wooden frame by nailing the skin to the framework while the glue dried. The nails were left in place for added strength. The plywood added structural strength to the fuselage which allowed a lighter and thinner shape than would have been possible with a fabric covered fuselage.

No offense Gaucho, your artwork is absolutely beautiful, but IMHO if someone is not familiar with aircraft construction methods they should not make flat assertions based on false assumptions or interpretations of something's appearance. I know you don't mean it that way, but it is just irritating to someone who has already gone to a great deal of effort to accurately portray something. If I may suggest, when you feel you would like to improve the painting of any object, the best way is to simply make a whole new skin, completely your own creation, for it. Then post it so it can be used on the model and everyone can benefit and appreciate it in its own right. You certainly have the skills and I for one would love to see some of your original work flying on some of our CFS2 models.

[Blood_Hawk23]

Guys,

What you see on the SVA wing are rib tapes, not the ribs. On fabric covered wings, the fabric is stitched to the wing ribs (you didn't think it was just pasted over the ribs, did you?). The rib tape is then placed over the stitching and doped down to cover the stitches to both protect the stitch cord from abrasion but also to smooth the wing surface and reduce parasite drag (no such thing as parasitic eddy in aircraft parlance, that's an electrical term). This is standard fabric aircraft covering procedure. I know first hand as I have built two fabric covered airplanes - a Starduster II and an AcroSport II.

The reason it is so visually prominent on the SVA wing is that the wing is clear doped allowing all detail of the fabric application to be easily seen. When colored dope is painted on the wing it blends the tape and the background fabric into one color and makes it harder to discern the tape. But I guarantee it is there.

Yes those are nails in the fuselage. The SVA fuselage formers were made of wood braced with internal guy wires. The skin of the SVA was a thin plywood which was glued over the fuselage framework and held firmly to the wooden frame by nailing the skin to the framework while the glue dried. The nails were left in place for added strength. The plywood added structural strength to the fuselage which allowed a lighter and thinner shape than would have been possible with a fabric covered fuselage.

No offense Gaucho, your artwork is absolutely beautiful, but IMHO if someone is not familiar with aircraft construction methods they should not make flat assertions based on false assumptions or interpretations of something's appearance. I know you don't mean it that way, but it is just irritating to someone who has already gone to a great deal of effort to accurately portray something. If I may suggest, when you feel you would like to improve the painting of any object, the best way is to simply make a whole new skin, completely your own creation, for it. Then post it so it can be used on the model and everyone can benefit and appreciate it in its own right. You certainly have the skills and I for one would love to see some of your original work flying on some of our CFS2 models.

Thank You CK.

I saw how they resorted a Camel, I think it was a camel. Maybe it was a SPAD. I can't remember now. I knew the skin was stretched on but not how it was secured.

[Captain Kurt]

Hi Bloodhawk

Actually the skin isn't just stretched on, it is tightened after it has been put on.

More boring technical information:

In the old days, cotton or linen fabric was used. it was pulled as tight as possible and then it was stitched. That's still pretty loose though. After it was stitched on, it was painted with a cellulose Butyrate dope that penetrated the fabric. As the dope dried it shrank pulling the fabric tight.

These days they use a synthetic polyester fabric, usually Ceconite. It is also put on and pulled as tight as possible and then stitched down. But now either a blow drier type tool or a heating iron is run over the fabric at low heat which causes the fabric to shrink and tighten. The latter is the method that I used to cover my planes. Then a non-tautening Nitrate dope is painted on. Butyrate dope will not stick to a polyester fabric, and in any case the additional tautening would possibly overstress the fabric.

[gaucho_59]

I was just trying to impart a bit of "constructive" instructional guidance... or criticism if you will...
Personally... I have pretty thick skin and am quite sure about what I know and don't know.... almost 30 years
of experience in the field of anesthesia - including working under warfare conditions in Viet Nam - taught me
that... especially... not to get "uptight" about criticism... just strive to do the my very best...

Some folk are very free with the latter.. but are hard-put to take it... the original representation did look like a
a corrugated zinc roof... no way out of that... doped fabric might leave a very shallow trough... but is essentially
smooth... even with the tape over the ribs - otherwise the frigging flying machine just does not fly...
And since I know of a way to correct it... I thought it might me appreciated to let other folks learn it...

I can always learn from someone else's comments (no matter how negatively they impact my actions)


Carlos

[Captain Kurt]

I was just trying to impart a bit of "constructive" instructional guidance... or criticism if you will...
Personally... I have pretty thick skin and am quite sure about what I know and don't know.... almost 30 years
of experience in the field of anesthesia - including working under warfare conditions in Viet Nam - taught me
that... especially... not to get "uptight" about criticism... just strive to do the my very best...

Some folk are very free with the latter.. but are hard-put to take it... the original representation did look like a
a corrugated zinc roof... no way out of that... doped fabric might leave a very shallow trough... but is essentially
smooth... even with the tape over the ribs - otherwise the frigging flying machine just does not fly...
And since I know of a way to correct it... I thought it might me appreciated to let other folks learn it...

I can always learn from someone else's comments (no matter how negatively they impact my actions)


Carlos

Please don't tell that to Professor Hugo Junkers

[gaucho_59]

[QUOTE=Captain Kurt;947407]Please don't tell that to Professor Hugo Junkers

The good professor's striated aluminum skins are very, very adept to flying... the representation of the fabric wing that was the
subject under discussion is quite something else... those troughs look quite deep and wide... (thereby the reference to a
corrugated zinc roof... that would create eddy currents in airflow) whereas the striated aluminum skin like the Tante (auntie) are much closer together....
I am afraid there is a bit of mixing apples and oranges here.... no offense taken.... or given for that matter
G.

[Blood_Hawk23]

[QUOTE=gaucho_59;947428]

Please don't tell that to Professor Hugo Junkers

The good professor's striated aluminum skins are very, very adept to flying... the representation of the fabric wing that was the
subject under discussion is quite something else... those troughs look quite deep and wide... (thereby the reference to a
corrugated zinc roof... that would create eddy currents in airflow) whereas the striated aluminum skin like the Tante (auntie) are much closer together....
I am afraid there is a bit of mixing apples and oranges here.... no offense taken.... or given for that matter
G.

I think it was bad lighting. Too much shadowing of the wrong areas. The roundle is the worst as it really gives the look of being wavy.

Though do be careful adding the glare. On the AC it can give the wrong look as well. There shouldn't be any shine on the Models Material so it could come off as a white spot. I don't know as I haven't seen it on it yet.

Hey CK,

Did it use it on all of the surfaces as the screenshot shows.

[misson]

I uploaded the Package: http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforum...9564&catid=150
I have endeavored to keep as faithful as possible, aspects of this original work, during the conversion to CFS2.
I have tried adding levels of detail "LOD" without success due to the complexity of these models.
I want to publicly thank to Manuelle Villa, for your confidence in who subscribes to the task of conversion.
Thanks to Bertrand Pillot (beepee) for the conversion of the panels and gauges. He did a great job and this perhaps the most watched during the simulation.
Thanks to John Fortin (Bloodhawk) for convert the weapons for the Z506 and Z1007 series and his try add lods with me.
Thanks to M.Shupe , “Hairyspin” and “Allen” for supported me in the design forum. SIM-OUTHOUSE.COM
I worked on the conversion of visual models, converting textures, air, aircraft, dp and and other details in sound.
Installation: It is important that you copy and paste the textures files into the "comon files..." folder in all “texture.xx folders.
Copy and paste the files from the "gauges" folder in the same folder of CFS2 Gauges.
Files in weapons folder bring their own installation instructions.
Use the spoiler key to open the bombs bays.
Use the tailhook key to move the gunners.

About my work , no perfect, I did my best with the time and resources that I had.
Please enjoy the work and give the credit to M.Shupe and M.Villa
If there is something to be corrected (Mauelle and partners of this conversion) , i´ll edit and modify the package, for that is thread, but I dont want to delay the upload any more.

Thanks again.
Mario M. Misson

[Captain Kurt]

For Bloodhawk

Most of the plane skin was corrugated. Only the leading edges of the flying surfaces and a few other areas like around the windscreen used regular smooth aluminum sheeting. The corrugations were for added strength as it gave additional resistance to flexing (front to rear).