Pitching Deck

[Wizard]

Not to belittle the above - but in *my* navy (mid 70s-80s) if a carrier rolled more than 5 degrees, tie downs started breaking and aircraft started rolling off the deck. In order to turn they stop or back one set of screws, thus they don't impart a heel. Of course, they're also 90,000 tons of diplomacy which is just a tad bigger than the WWII carriers. Still, I've seen some video that freaked me out watching the deck pitch like a wild banshee. And, of course, 5 degrees over 1000 feet (500 feet to the center of gravity give or take) = 43 feet (up and down) which is a huge differential.



I'm not a carrier guy - I was small boys all the way and we had pretty strict limits for landing helos. On my last ship ( an FF-1052 class) we lost a helo just before I reported for duty. Bad weather, heavy seas, night time, - all the right ingredients. Cause of the accident was a malfunction in the SH-2F landing gear whereby the pilot had down and lock indicated, but the left gear collapsed (it wasn't locked), he applied too much power in an attempt to get airborne before rotor blades would go flying every which way. Didn't matter, though, he actually ended up inverted, hit the ocean, blades ripped up the stern of the ship, the pilot was killed. Co-pilot and crewman escaped. My CO was paranoid the entire time I was OPSO every time we had helo ops after that.

In an odd sort of irony, the company my mother worked for made the landing gear assembly.

[Dman]

Anything Navy I'm in...
And a THANK YOU to all the talent that develops these programs!
Without trying to start a heated discussion, I'm wondering how does this differ from the TacPack feature (Besides being freeware)?
Looks good from what I see..

[PRB]

Bob, you can adjust the pitch and roll values as extreme as you want...

In this video, my settings are:

PitchAmplitude: 0.75
BankAmplitude: 3.00
PitchPeriod: 70
BankPeriod: 30

This would be a fairly unusual, but not necessarily uncommon, day at sea on a 100,000 ton carrier. If that makes any sense. I imagine a straight deck Essex class CV, at a third the displacement, would probably move a bit more in the same sea state. I sat in front of my computer watching this parked helicopter, transfixed, for about five minutes, LOLOL. That's pretty much what it looks like!

[orionll]

gradyhappyg: Glad you like it!


Paul: Looks good to me, thanks! Your gentler settings are nice as well.


Helldiver: I may not be a hotshot sim-pilot such as yourself or dvj, but it's not for the lack of programming ability -- my program is certainly up to the challenge. If you find the pitch and bank amplitudes in the below video too subtle, I can raise the maximum amplitudes for you or whoever else would like it. I'd like to apologize in advance for being above glideslope, and having my AoA and lineup all over the place.





The narrative at the beginning was just a bit of fun, but should be fairly realistic to my knowledge -- any current naval aviators are free to correct me.


Wizard: More than 5 degrees!? It looks to me that at even 3 degrees things might be rolling off the deck (see above video -- my plane is certainly edging backwards each time, or try it in my program for yourself).


Dman: You're welcome! My program allows fine grained control of period and amplitude for both pitch and bank. And, as you mentioned, it's free! You should be able to use it alongside TacPack if you'd like to use their other features. (I can't vouch for the compatibility myself, but I have a tester who ran both simultaneously without trouble.)

[Helldiver]

I got in the US Navy, tail end of WWII. My carrier experience was between 1946 to 1947. During which I made 76 landings and on an Essex Class Carrier, riding in the back seat of a Helldiver.
Now the standard practice then, was to get up to flank speed using the wind behind the Carrier. The Carrier, being a planing hull, would noticely rise as the hull came out of the water and generated quite a "Rooster tail". Then when she reached flank speed, she would quickly turn a 180, putting the ship into the wind.
Now I don't know what the practice now is. But I don't think they've changed much. No mattter how big the Carrier is.
I only know she'd heel so much it was hard to stand up and although the guy wires were straining, we never lost a plane.
Of course I'm talking over 65 years ago. But I don't think they've changed the Law of Physics that much. Planes still have to take off and land into the wind. No matter how much she is rocking and rolling .

[orionll]

Do you have any particular maximum amplitude setting you'd like me to set? 5 degrees? 10 degrees? I'd say the latter should be more than enough for anyone.

[expat]

Have been wary of trying this as I know it will only make my not so hot splat rate even worse!

Is there a way to bake-in this functionality so it works with ships in AICarriers2 and/or Carrier Tracks? I have a lot time invested in setting up particular formations/time periods etc (and like the ease of use) and it would be great if the carriers could pitch and roll as well as move.

[Victory103]

No reference to the PBS series "Carrier", pitching deck episode? I only really once remember heading out to sea off the Jax Op area when a hurricane was moving up the East coast with waves really moving the boat around. Every other time we secured flight ops and went to heavy wx tie-downs. I can see this cool freeware program working great for "smallboys" and the helo bubbas getting into then white knuckle landing challenge! Pitch/roll and wind limits are different for each ship.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ki8Ji4HQVU

[orionll]

expat: Unfortunately not. Boats in FSX don't support angular velocities, so the workaround is to put the boat in slew and set the slew rates instead. This requires my program to be in complete control of the boat. If I try setting slew on AI controlled boats created through other programs (or by the simulator), whatever created it will no longer have control over the boat (preventing the boats from following their previous waypoints).

Victory103: My program gives the user complete control over the amplitude and period of the pitch and roll movement of the boat. Do you have a particular maximum setting (over 3 degrees) you'd like to be able to set?

[orionll]

I've updated Pitching Deck to allow the pitch and bank amplitude sliders to go to 30 degrees. If you require pitch or bank amplitudes in excess of 30 degrees, you can manually edit the PitchAmplitude and BankAmplitude elements in the PitchingDeck.xml file. After doing so, make sure not to move the pitch or bank amplitude sliders, otherwise the custom values will be overwritten.

The download in the beginning of the thread should now point to the new version. Alternatively, you can get the update by launching Pitching Deck and letting it download the updated version.

[Helldiver]

When you asked me what would be a good angle of roll, it got me to thinking. The problem is your stuck with the sea that Microsoft gives us. So your trying to show a dynamic action on a static platform.. Within that boundary you did a good job. Very good indeed. But it apparent that nobody had been a Swabbie in the Microsft camp.
The ocean can be relatively smooth as the FSX designers gave us. But it suddenly can turn blue green with white caps and just as suddenly turn black with thirty to forty foot waves with a 60 foot one, a rouge wave, just to keep things exciting.
Possibly the new owners of FSX will pay attention to this fact and give us some realitic wave action. Plus decent bow waves and wakes on ships. Until then were stuck with the limitations the Flight Simulator. has. Pehaps they should make a Ships Simulator. I've tried some of the sailboat simulators and they were lame as can be.

[Wizard]

I agree - and would add that it would be nice if motion through the water were correct. "Driving" a ship through the water at a constant speed is impossible - I only manage with a gauge that averages your ordered speed. What a pain!

[PRB]

Going to disagree a wee bit on the above two posts. While it would be very cool to see the actual waves causing the ship's movement, it's inconsequential. If you watch the YouTube video posted above (and by gray eagle below), of the PBS show, the ship is pitching and rolling a lot, but the sea looks pretty flat, like it always does, from a perch 70 feet above it. To a pilot landing on a ship that's pitching and rolling, the individual waves are irrelevant. What's important here, for a flight sim game, is that the actual motion of the ship is realistically duplicated, and Orion has achieved this beautifully. The swells that cause such motion are long period swells which are difficult to pick out even if you're standing on the deck looking for them. This is assuming "normal" operations, of course, and not CAT 5 Typhoons, during which nobody will be flying, no matter if it's 1945 or 2005. The decks of aircraft carriers can move quite a bit in conditions that look otherwise "normal", i.e., blue skies and blue water.

[gray eagle]

From the PBS documentary series "Carrier" - Rites of Passage.

Navy pilots landing aboard the USS Nimitz during rough seas in the Pacific.

Part 1 of 2

[gray eagle]

[TARPSBird]

In the second video, last guy to come aboard did a pro job. The other folks kept coming in high, no wonder they boltered. They were like 2/3 of the way down the angle before you even saw sparks from the hook.

[PRB]

What is the proper technique in this situation? I'm guessing the "Fresno Lens" is "Earth Stabilized", and if so, it looks like the pilots are adjusting power, up and down, in order to maintain proper orientation with the deck, and not the approach light lens system. If I'm a nugget carrier pilot, what am I told is the proper way to do this at night when the deck is pitching? Fly the Lens, or fly the deck?

[orionll]

Pitch for airspeed, power for altitude. Follow the glideslope based on the ball's indication (IFLOLS) or LSO (if you're running vLSO). Don't try to chase the deck up and down. The FSX Blue Angels have a nice carrier landing tutorial entitled "OK, 3" on Vimeo.

[SH427]

FLY THE BALL.
for the love of GOD fly the ball!
That's what was drilled into me over various conversations with RL Navy pilots.

[PRB]

Flying the ball makes sense, but doing so all the way down to the wires seems to imply that the difference between a bolter and an OK-3 pass, in pitching deck conditions, is 100% luck, driven entirely by where the deck is when you happen to cross the wires. It looked to me like every one of the pilots in the PBS show was chasing the deck, to some degree. Of course most of them boltered too... I guess that's why they get paid the big bucks.

[gray eagle]

I guess rotor heads don't have it as bad with carrier landings as the fixed wing community.

[strykerpsg]

Gray Eagle, thanks for sharing. I see both Helldiver's point about a more extreme roll, but PRB's as well about an apparently somewhat calm looking surface but much bigger roll translated on the deck. That must be a pucker factor moment to one moment see the intended landing space appear as usual, only to be quickly marginalized or put into a much higher angle. My hat's off to all Navy and Marine aviators that fly that regularly. My question is does a rolling deck such as that require quite a bit more brake usage, stopping a rolling, wheeled, multi-ton machine from going off the deck? I mean land based field isn't moving so braking is predictable. I suspect mush tougher in that environment and throw in darkness, NVG's and again, fantastic job of not loosing few, if any, off the deck.

[Victory103]

I guess rotor heads don't have it as bad with carrier landings as the fixed wing community.

Deck landing on a pitching/rolling smallboy is about as close as they get, it's not easy even if it's a RAST recovery. Similar challenge level unaided at night.

No NVG's for landing on the carrier, many mistake that given the PBS series had to film at night. As soon as he is in his parking spot, he's chalked/chained before shutdown.

[gray eagle]

Deck landing on a pitching/rolling smallboy is about as close as they get, it's not easy even if it's a RAST recovery. Similar challenge level unaided at night.

No NVG's for landing on the carrier, many mistake that given the PBS series had to film at night. As soon as he is in his parking spot, he's chalked/chained before shutdown.

Thanks for bringing this to light. Maybe someone would like to develop a pitching deck for a small-boy. But, my original comment was for an aircraft carrier = much larger landing surface for a helo
then what a small boy has to offer.

To go off onto a slight tangent; I give you great moments in helo parking:

[HvyEng]

Thanks for the hard work on the pitching deck utility, I think it is awesome, and adds another element of immersion to the sim!

Rotary wing aircraft have another trick up their sleeve...



If you made the cable long enough, I'm sure you could do the same with a hornet. Right?

--Dan