Ford India AI problem

[Ralf Roggeveen]

Yea verily, Brethren:

Has anybody installed the very nice Ford India Project?

I've had no problem putting the Scenery (Parts 1 - 4) into GW3, but can't get the AI to work...

Did the obvious, removing all previous AI. Still no joy. Wonder if the AI clashes with anything (else) in Golden Wings?

(GW seems the sensible place to install the 1930s Ford stuff, so hope it can all be made compatible.)

Would be interested to hear from anyone who's got this going properly!

[aeromed202]

That is one massive scenery undertaking. You got me interested so now I'm fetching all the parts. As for AI, if they supply all the aircraft, flightplans and airports as well as all the needed Afcads, it sure ought to work. I can't go much further until I have all the files. Reasons for no AI are many but start with the simple like sliding your AI to 100% and show every type of AC. The daily flightplans appear to require 95% or higher to be seen so check you have that as your density setting. Also if one flightplan airport is not yet installed, that can halt AI that need it to proceed. AI don't necessarily disappear with conflicting sceneries/Afcads but for any hope of functional AI there needs to be only one Afcad per designated airport. You can check for duplicates with AFCAD 2.21 by Lee Swordy. Hope this helps.

[Ralf Roggeveen]

Yes! That has worked, thank you very much aeromed (is that as in Aero Medic? If so, you have certainly cured this problem).

I had AI Traffic set to 93%, but changing it to 100%, as suggested, brought the Ford India aircraft up.

It's a strange, colourful lot too! Some of the Indian aircraft are post-independence, so not really 1930s. (It's a bit like if Henry Ford, rather than Queen Victoria, had ruled over India - eew).

So far you only get DH80 Puss Moths, Vegas, Ford Trimotors (LOTS of them) and the odd HP42. The latter is also a bit of an anachronism and pops up in some funny places where they didn't really go, but nice to represent Imperial in some way. The 'RAF' Trimotor is highly suspect and they have used a modern Royal Mail logo which is a bit of a shame, but still, overall everything is very pretty.

The first 4 Scenery packages include Colombo, Bangkok, Rangoon, Kuala Lumpur, Penang and Singapore, so you can already get a little way beyond India. They are going to add a lot of other 1930s Asian airports, so we may soon be able to get KLM and KNILM to Batavia in some style, back in the Golden Age...

[edmoore235]

Wow, had me rolling on the floor laughing! Will check on the Royal mail logo - Calling Mr. Garry Smith, help on the logo, please.
About the post independence livery, just a total lack of good info on what was flying where or when in the India region. Point out
the specific wrong ones, we will make a genuine effort to replace to be CORRECT for the 1930's! Thanks again, great smile for me!
Take care and have a most happy holiday season.

Ed Moore

[GarryJSmith]

Hi All,

Will do a check on the Royal Mail logo for that era - I thought I had found the right one - but will do some research and correct them on the couple of aircraft that have the Royal Mail sticker. 2 DH80's and 1 Vega.

Yes, this Ford India Project is a big one - with the ultimate aim of enabling simmers to fly from England to Australia along the historical routes of the 30's. Lots more to come on that project.

A lot of the scenery and AI liveries are "creative" but applying as much 1930/40's historical correctness as we possible can - most research for the era turns up vague black and white pictures of unknown vintage and we try our best to interprete them to create a full and colourful simming historical environment. Feedback is essential to assist us in getting it to an acceptable rendition of the era. Thanks

And yes - lots of Ford's in the AI - it is after all a Ford Tri-Motor Project so naturally a "little" bit of bias

Anyway - off to do some research

[GarryJSmith]

OK - below is a picture of the alternative that might be suitable for the Royal Air Mail insignia for aircraft in the Ford India Project.


The Empire Air Mail Scheme seems to be the most suitable - founded in 1933 for the "international" routes - and one of the major runs listed was from England to Australia via India

I am leaning towards the EAMS as the most likely alternative

Any recommendations or alternative suggestions would be appreciated.

Regards

[lemonadedrinker]

Hi,

It will be fantastic to be able to fly from the UK to Australia on 1930's routes and with scenery from the era. It is a wonderful project you are involved in and creating for us virtual flyboys.

Thank You both !!

Andy.

[edmoore235]

OK, here is an extract from Wikipedia on Air Services of India Ltd.:

"Air Services of India Ltd.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:
Air Services of India was a private airline based at Juhu Aerodrome in Mumbai, in India.

The airline was merged into the Indian Airlines Corporation in 1953.

Contents
1 History
2 Destinations

History:

The airline was formed in 1936 and initially served routes on the Kathiawar Peninsula and to Poona. with aircraft like the de Havilland Dragonfly, Airspeed Courier, Percival Vega Gulls and de Havilland Fox Moths. In the beginning of 1939, it opened a new line between Kolhapur and Juhu Aerodrome in Mumbai. The thrice a week service was officially inaugurated by the Maharaja of Kolhapur, who showed considerable interest in the project, subsidised the service and built an airport at Kolhapur.
In 1941, Air Services of India was purchased by The Scindia Steam Navigation Company Ltd. and became known as the Scindia line. Services resumed on 3 May 1946 after World War 2 with a small fleet of De Havilland Dragon Rapides and 11 former United States Air Force Douglas C-47 Skytrains converted for civilian use. By 1953, when the Air Corporations Act was passed, it had an extensive network from Cochin to Lucknow and became Line 7 of the Indian Airlines Corporation.

Destinations:

Air Services of India served cities mostly in the Western regions of British India including Karachi which is now in Pakistan.

* India -

Gujarat

Bhavnagar - Bhavnagar Airport
Bhuj - Bhuj Airport
Jamnagar - Jamnagar Airport
Keshod - Keshod Airport
Porbandar - Porbandar Airport
Rajkot - Rajkot Airport

Karnataka

Bangalore - Bangalore Airport
Belgaum - Belgaum Airport

Kerala

Kochi - Willingdon Island Airport
Madhya Pradesh
Indore - Devi Ahilyabai Holkar Airport
Gwalior - Gwalior Airport

Maharashtra

Mumbai - Juhu Aerodrome Hub
Pune - Pune International Airport

Uttar Pradesh

Kanpur - Kanpur Airport
Lucknow - Amausi International Airport

* Pakistan -

Karachi - Karachi Airport"

Yes, is was founded in middle of the 1930's but is not POST-Independence livery. Included the destinations to help you to setup
flights and routes in line with what did occur (real world). Take care. Happy Holidays to all!!

Ed Moore

[edmoore235]

More info about EAMS from Wilikipedia (short extract):


"Empire Air Mail Scheme

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Empire Air Mail Scheme (EAMS) was an attempt by the British Air Ministry to regain leadership of world civil aviation in the late 1930s following the establishment of The Air Mail Route from Cairo to Bagdad in the early 1920s. Conceived in 1934 by Sir Eric Geddes, chairman of Imperial Airways, EAMS sought to greatly expand British civil aviation by shifting all ‘first class’ mail within the British Empire by air. Imperial Airways was a private company, but like most airlines of the era, relied on public subsidies (in this case, from the Air Ministry) to support its operations. A critical driving force behind EAMS was Sir Christopher Llewellyn Bullock K.C.B, C.B.E., Permanent Under-Secretary at the British Air Ministry from 1931 to 1936. Appointed at the age of 38, he remains one the youngest civil servants to have headed a British Government department.

EAMS was a hugely expensive plan, and to make it financially acceptable to the British Government, subsidies were required to support it from the ‘Dominions’ (especially South Africa, India and Australia), and the colonies of the Empire. In this way, EAMS served another of Geddes’ aims, namely to prevent local Indian, South African and Australian operators from opening up international air routes.

Political agreement from within the Empire was finally reached in early 1937, after the Australians held out for a better financial deal. Australian aviation experts were deeply sceptical about the Scheme from the start, and were especially concerned that Imperial Airways had decided on the use of flying boats to operate the new services, even before final agreement was reached. Geddes preferred flying boats because he thought the cost of expanding airfields throughout the Empire would be too great, and the cost of fuel would be lower along the coastline in comparison with inland airfields.

The use of flying boats quickly exposed the frailties of the Scheme once it became operational. The first service from Alexandria, Egypt began in December 1936, and that to Durban, South Africa commenced the following year. However, the service to Australia did not begin until July 1938, owing to difficulties in building alighting stations in the difficult geographic and climatic conditions in northern Australia. The Short C Class ‘Empire’ boats were over-weight, meaning their useful load and hence profitability were down on specification, and structurally weak, so that the aircraft were easily damaged.

In December 1938, the Scheme was wracked by crisis, as the fragile Shorts flying boats went out of service due to accidents and maintenance problems, while the cheap subsidised mail rates offered to the public attracted a flood of letters that the British Air Ministry never expected. To shift this huge quantity of mail while their own fleet steadily diminished, Imperial Airways scoured Europe for aircraft on short term leases, including American Douglas airliners from Swissair.[7] An official review of the Scheme in early 1939 then concluded that the amount of mail to be carried at peak times like the Christmas season could never be lifted without an uneconomic number of ‘reserve’ aircraft that would then be idle for the rest of the year.

The outbreak of the war in September 1939 brought the Scheme to an end; by then, British officials had concluded the original selection of flying boats was a mistake, and British aviation needed to shift back to landplanes. However, the demands of war prevented British industry from building new prototype landplanes for which orders had been placed, the Fairey FC1 and the Short S32."

Rather a bit long but there it is: Thanks and take care.

Ed Moore

[edmoore235]

More info about EAMS from Wilikipedia (short extract):


"Empire Air Mail Scheme

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Empire Air Mail Scheme (EAMS) was an attempt by the British Air Ministry to regain leadership of world civil aviation in the late 1930s following the establishment of The Air Mail Route from Cairo to Bagdad in the early 1920s. Conceived in 1934 by Sir Eric Geddes, chairman of Imperial Airways, EAMS sought to greatly expand British civil aviation by shifting all ‘first class’ mail within the British Empire by air. Imperial Airways was a private company, but like most airlines of the era, relied on public subsidies (in this case, from the Air Ministry) to support its operations. A critical driving force behind EAMS was Sir Christopher Llewellyn Bullock K.C.B, C.B.E., Permanent Under-Secretary at the British Air Ministry from 1931 to 1936. Appointed at the age of 38, he remains one the youngest civil servants to have headed a British Government department.

EAMS was a hugely expensive plan, and to make it financially acceptable to the British Government, subsidies were required to support it from the ‘Dominions’ (especially South Africa, India and Australia), and the colonies of the Empire. In this way, EAMS served another of Geddes’ aims, namely to prevent local Indian, South African and Australian operators from opening up international air routes.

Political agreement from within the Empire was finally reached in early 1937, after the Australians held out for a better financial deal. Australian aviation experts were deeply sceptical about the Scheme from the start, and were especially concerned that Imperial Airways had decided on the use of flying boats to operate the new services, even before final agreement was reached. Geddes preferred flying boats because he thought the cost of expanding airfields throughout the Empire would be too great, and the cost of fuel would be lower along the coastline in comparison with inland airfields.

The use of flying boats quickly exposed the frailties of the Scheme once it became operational. The first service from Alexandria, Egypt began in December 1936, and that to Durban, South Africa commenced the following year. However, the service to Australia did not begin until July 1938, owing to difficulties in building alighting stations in the difficult geographic and climatic conditions in northern Australia. The Short C Class ‘Empire’ boats were over-weight, meaning their useful load and hence profitability were down on specification, and structurally weak, so that the aircraft were easily damaged.

In December 1938, the Scheme was wracked by crisis, as the fragile Shorts flying boats went out of service due to accidents and maintenance problems, while the cheap subsidised mail rates offered to the public attracted a flood of letters that the British Air Ministry never expected. To shift this huge quantity of mail while their own fleet steadily diminished, Imperial Airways scoured Europe for aircraft on short term leases, including American Douglas airliners from Swissair.[7] An official review of the Scheme in early 1939 then concluded that the amount of mail to be carried at peak times like the Christmas season could never be lifted without an uneconomic number of ‘reserve’ aircraft that would then be idle for the rest of the year.

The outbreak of the war in September 1939 brought the Scheme to an end; by then, British officials had concluded the original selection of flying boats was a mistake, and British aviation needed to shift back to landplanes. However, the demands of war prevented British industry from building new prototype landplanes for which orders had been placed, the Fairey FC1 and the Short S32."

Rather a bit long but there it is: Thanks and take care.

Ed Moore

[edmoore235]

More info about EAMS from Wilikipedia (short extract):


"Empire Air Mail Scheme

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Empire Air Mail Scheme (EAMS) was an attempt by the British Air Ministry to regain leadership of world civil aviation in the late 1930s following the establishment of The Air Mail Route from Cairo to Bagdad in the early 1920s. Conceived in 1934 by Sir Eric Geddes, chairman of Imperial Airways, EAMS sought to greatly expand British civil aviation by shifting all ‘first class’ mail within the British Empire by air. Imperial Airways was a private company, but like most airlines of the era, relied on public subsidies (in this case, from the Air Ministry) to support its operations. A critical driving force behind EAMS was Sir Christopher Llewellyn Bullock K.C.B, C.B.E., Permanent Under-Secretary at the British Air Ministry from 1931 to 1936. Appointed at the age of 38, he remains one the youngest civil servants to have headed a British Government department.

EAMS was a hugely expensive plan, and to make it financially acceptable to the British Government, subsidies were required to support it from the ‘Dominions’ (especially South Africa, India and Australia), and the colonies of the Empire. In this way, EAMS served another of Geddes’ aims, namely to prevent local Indian, South African and Australian operators from opening up international air routes.

Political agreement from within the Empire was finally reached in early 1937, after the Australians held out for a better financial deal. Australian aviation experts were deeply sceptical about the Scheme from the start, and were especially concerned that Imperial Airways had decided on the use of flying boats to operate the new services, even before final agreement was reached. Geddes preferred flying boats because he thought the cost of expanding airfields throughout the Empire would be too great, and the cost of fuel would be lower along the coastline in comparison with inland airfields.

The use of flying boats quickly exposed the frailties of the Scheme once it became operational. The first service from Alexandria, Egypt began in December 1936, and that to Durban, South Africa commenced the following year. However, the service to Australia did not begin until July 1938, owing to difficulties in building alighting stations in the difficult geographic and climatic conditions in northern Australia. The Short C Class ‘Empire’ boats were over-weight, meaning their useful load and hence profitability were down on specification, and structurally weak, so that the aircraft were easily damaged.

In December 1938, the Scheme was wracked by crisis, as the fragile Shorts flying boats went out of service due to accidents and maintenance problems, while the cheap subsidised mail rates offered to the public attracted a flood of letters that the British Air Ministry never expected. To shift this huge quantity of mail while their own fleet steadily diminished, Imperial Airways scoured Europe for aircraft on short term leases, including American Douglas airliners from Swissair. An official review of the Scheme in early 1939 then concluded that the amount of mail to be carried at peak times like the Christmas season could never be lifted without an uneconomic number of ‘reserve’ aircraft that would then be idle for the rest of the year.

The outbreak of the war in September 1939 brought the Scheme to an end; by then, British officials had concluded the original selection of flying boats was a mistake, and British aviation needed to shift back to landplanes. However, the demands of war prevented British industry from building new prototype landplanes for which orders had been placed, the Fairey FC1 and the Short S32."

Rather a bit long but there it is: Thanks and take care.

Ed Moore

[edmoore235]

Here is some more info on airlines in India circa the 30's:
Extracted from Wilkipedia:

In 1932, Tata Sons, a large industrial conglomerate, started a mail service over the route Karachi to Bombay, and on south to Madras.
The airline became Tata Air Lines in 1938, by which time also Delhi and Colombo were serviced.
After war services (when Calcutta was added to the network) in support of the Allies, Tata became Air-India in July 1946, to coincide with the airline turning into a public corporation.
Together with the Indian Government, Air-India set up Air-India International in March 1948, to open intercontinental routes as the national flag carrier of India.
With Air-India responsible for managing Air-India International, the two airlines worked closely together until 1953, when all airlines of India were nationalized. Air-India, Indian National Airways and other domestic and regional operators were brought together as Indian Airlines Corporation, which replaced the old airlines as of June 1953.

Take care, Ed.

[edmoore235]

Last bit about Indian National Airways Ltd: Extracted from Wilkipedia:

"Indian National Airways Ltd

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(Redirected from Indian National Airways)

Indian National Airways c.1933

Indian National Airways Ltd was an airline based in Delhi, India. The founder of the airline was R. E. Grant Govan, a Delhi based British industrialist who also co-founded the Board of Control for Cricket in India and the Cricket Club of India. The airline was formed on the basis of a government airmail contract.

The company was started by Govan Bros Ltd. in May 1933 with a capital of Rs. 3 million (or Rs. 30 Lakh). It became the second airline to start operations in India in December 1933, with a weekly passenger and freight service between Calcutta and Rangoon as well as between Calcutta and Dhaka. It also started a weekly service between Karachi and Lahore, a feeder service for Imperial Airways. The company then had a fleet made up of light single engined aircraft. By 1937 the airline had clocked over a million miles and made a slender annual profit.

The airline was awarded another government contract in 1938 under the Empire Air Mail Scheme for carrying first class mail on the Karachi - Lahore and Karachi - Colombo routes for a period of ten years along with Tata Airlines. This was a major boost for aviation in India. As this contract promised a minimum income along with an operating subsidy, the company was able to expand and renovate its fleet. During World War II, all mail contracts were suspended and aircraft put under government disposal. Only spare capacity was allowed for commercial use, which affected the industry on the whole.

It was one of the four major airlines in India at the time of Indian Independence in 1947. As of 1947, the airline had a fleet of six Vickers Viking with another nine De Havilland Dove on order. The company also bought some war-surplus Douglas DC-3 aircraft from the United States of America at the end of the war.

In 1953 Indian National Airways was nationalised and merged into Indian Airlines."

So Indian National Airways predated India's independence.....Take care.

Ed Moore

[Ralf Roggeveen]

All great stuff, Gentlemen; thanks for your kind attention. The correct original Royal Mail logo can be found on many Cal Classic aircraft and over at Classic British Flightsim too. The red one dates from the low graphic value era of the 1980s. The current British government have just privatised Royal Mail (though it's still called that for some inexplicable reason - don't know what the Queen thinks, probably very angry indeed) after the state ran it since the 17th Century... But then they're 'Conservatives', so of course they tear everything down and change it at breakneck speed.

Basically the whole point of being British is that everything should be modest and understated. (Bragging & showing off are for lesser nations; but unfortunately effortless modesty is now unfashionable and Look At Me, Me, Me! has become the embarrassing norm even for Brits under 45.) Ford India is superb, I have now spent several happy hours flying around there, but with all those colourful aircraft it's Injah on Acid - British India if Henry Ford had run it. He certainly would have liked to have got his hands on the rubber plantations of Malaysia...

I've also installed Mr Moore's beautiful Fordlandia (i.e. the Amazon basin if Henry Ford had run it), pictures below when visited in a cute yellow Travelair. Any plans for some AI for '30s Brazil? More De Havilland, Handley Page and interwar British AI in general would be nice - also, any chance of some flyable Tata aircraft to do the mail routes?

[edmoore235]

Gosh, I am a bit confused - Mr. Smith has already done the following TATA repaints;

First, one for the Ford Tri-Motor, Tata Airlines, a Lockheed Vega - Tata Airlines (VT-AKD), two versions for the DH80A, TATA Air Services (VT-AND) and TATA Sons Ltd (VT-ACZ).
Also a Vega - Bengal Tiger Tours and a DH88 Bengal Tiger Tours (VT-BTT) for some in India flying.

Also at my count, Garry had at least 12 DH80a India repaints and about four for the Ford Tri-Motor.
In addition, two repaints for the DH88 were India usable as well.
Plenty of choices of different aircraft to fly in and around INDIA.....smile! Take care and happy flying!

Ed Moore

[Ralf Roggeveen]

Yes Sir, thank you once again. The flyables are now located on the Ford Trimotor site; just couldn't find them by going to FlightSim, Avsim, etc. and searching by 'Tata'.

The mail routes are fun because the big airlines - Imperial and KLM - only flew across the north of India, whereas Tata go up and down the subcontinent...

Looking forward to more great stuff from your brilliant site !