TJ's P51 gold course test - NON PARTCIPANT

**pilottj** · May 3rd, 2013, 10:40

Hey guys,
I am testing out the A2A Accusimmed Civil P-51 on the Western Roundup gold course. I am curious how well Duenna will play with Accusim. I also wanted to measure the wear and tear of the race on the P-51. Getting ideas for a race over at A2A. On this first leg to CYPS, it seems Duenna has some issues. I think it comes from A2A's loadout page for loading fuel/fluids...etc. Perhaps because Accusim also simulates overflow fuel being returned from the engine to the left tank goofs up Duenna's calculations.

Duenna also says I overspeed. I didn't, I was around 360kts TAS (under Vno) for most of the cruise, and a little over Vno during decent.

Has anyone flown an accusimmed aircraft for the RTW race with Duenna, and were there any issues?

Anyway here is the info for the flight. I did a complete overhaul before the flight to start with a fresh engine.

Fuel weight: 792.0 lbs (-305.0 lbs)

305*.06=0:18:18 min fuel cost

Summary:
Direct distance: 167.5 nm
Flight time: 00:45:15
Baton time: 00:57:45
Average GS: 223.3 kts
Valid: not valid! (errors: 1)

45:15 + 18:18 = 1:03:33

MM · May 3rd, 2013, 10:59

We are eager to learn about how the Duenna works with AccuSim.

As you note, the Duenna does appear to register an increase in fuel weight at the end of your descent (at 18:08:19z). You increase the fuel weight by about a pound. Monitoring the fuel weight is the way that the Duenna guards against the pilot's mid-air refueling. One can see what has happened when one examines the record -- but having to study each flight's details may be annoying when you have many legs to authenticate.

It will be good to have a workaround here.

**pilottj** · May 3rd, 2013, 12:22

Well here is the second leg to CYCG. Duenna played nice with Accusim this time. I'll go ahead and fly all the legs of the course, and we will see if there is some sort of consistency to the errors or not. It will be interesting to see if this will work, I would imagine the civil P-51 would make a great RTW plane.

Fuel weight: 739.0 lbs (-362.0 lbs)

362*.06=0:21:45 Fuel cost

Summary:
Direct distance: 206.7 nm
Flight time: 00:51:35
Baton time: 00:53:59
Average GS: 238.5 kts
Valid: VALIDATED

CYPS 0:45.15 | 0:18:18 | 1:03:33
CYCG 0:51:35 | 0:21:45 | 1:13:20
__________________________

**Great Ozzie** · May 3rd, 2013, 15:15

Originally Posted by pilottj

Has anyone flown an accusimmed aircraft for the RTW race with Duenna, and were there any issues?

Hi TJ,

Yes... I have (well, SOH event). The A2A B377 during the Evita event here in June of '09 (yeah... aught-nine... I remember the year... Evita... MacRobertson... where SOH stacked events deep and pilots weep'd...).

Actually... both Harvey (Rosier - nick: arrvoo) flew the B377 using Accusim and I do not recall either of us having any problems. Sign-up record:
Evita Race Event Pilot Registration

I have experienced fuel errors twice that I can recall...

Once was with the FSX DG Flugzeugbau DG-808S. I dumped the water ballast prior to landing (which should be done) and got a Red Duenna for that.
(http://johannesmueller.com/fsforum/v...fa5c3399f0fd27)

The other happened during testing of the WOP3 P-47. Iirc... running out the drop tanks (zero lbs remaining) would cause a Red Duenna. I don't think it had anything to do with Accusim (again iirc). For that reason, I always switched tanks with a few lbs remaining in the A2A P-47. Does not happen with any other aircraft that I can recall testing. All others you can run tanks bone dry then switch (btw something I never, never, ever did / do RW... with any airplane or my truck

: ).

Also... there might be an issue dropping tanks in flight... I can't recall... at any rate, something again I never, ever do (change any a/c config while in flight and Duenna running).

hth's
Rob

**pilottj** · May 3rd, 2013, 15:51

That's interesting Rob. If memory serves, the accusim modules on the 377 and P-47 didn't yet simulate returned fuel from the engine to the tank. On this leg to KSFF, I got the same issue as the first, appears to be on approach as being 'refueled'. I think on the first and third legs, I flew steeper approaches ie over -3000FPM dives. I'll have to continue to research this over the course.

Here is KSFF leg info

Fuel weight: 936.0 lbs (-156.0 lbs)
156*.06=0:09:22

Summary:
Direct distance: 97.8 nm
Flight time: 00:25:23
Baton time: 00:34:29
Average GS: 225.6 kts
Valid: not valid! (errors: 1)

CYPS 0:45.15 | 0:18:18 | 1:03:33
CYCG 0:51:35 | 0:21:45 | 1:13:20
KSFF 0:25:23 | 0:09:22 | 0:34:45

**pilottj** · May 3rd, 2013, 16:54

Ok, here is the trip to OR12. I paid a little more attention to my approach this time, kept it a little shallower. Duenna played nice this leg. Another thing to note, both failed Duenna trips were started from a cold start, and the successful ones were started from a warm engine, tho I don't know if that has anything to do with it.

Fuel weight: 838.0 lbs (-264.0 lbs)
264*.06=0:15:50

Summary:
Direct distance: 162.0 nm
Flight time: 00:40:44
Baton time: 00:45:31
Average GS: 242.9 kts
Valid: VALIDATED

CYPS 0:45.15 | 0:18:18 | 1:03:33
CYCG 0:51:35 | 0:21:45 | 1:13:20
KSFF 0:25:23 | 0:09:22 | 0:34:45
OR12 0:40:44 | 0:15:50 | 0:56:30

**pilottj** · May 4th, 2013, 10:49

Here is the trip to KSUN. Duenna played nice again this time, and again I was mindful of my rate of descent. I think Accusim's modeling of the fuel system really simulates fuel as a liquid, subject to G-forces. I know in the P-40, if I throw a hard negative-G maneuver, I can starve the engine of fuel. Being inverted too long will starve the engine as well. Perhaps a dive causes fuel to be returned to the tank, I don't know. I'll have to ask one of the techs over at A2A. On the next leg, I'll throw the P-51 around in some aerobatics and see what Duenna does.

Anyway, here is the KSUN data.

Fuel weight: 506.0 lbs (-239.0 lbs)
239*.06=0:14:20

Summary:
Direct distance: 141.9 nm
Flight time: 00:34:39
Baton time: 00:37:30
Average GS: 250.5 kts
Valid: VALIDATED

CYPS 0:45.15 | 0:18:18 | 1:03:33
CYCG 0:51:35 | 0:21:45 | 1:13:20
KSFF 0:25:23 | 0:09:22 | 0:34:45
OR12 0:40:44 | 0:15:50 | 0:56:30
KSUN 0:34:39 | 0:14:20 | 0:57:59

**pilottj** · May 4th, 2013, 12:37

Here is the trip to 36U. This time I threw the old girl around a bit in the sky. Some steep dives, rolls, outside loop, tight turns. Definitely pulled some Gs as you can see from the VC's G-meter. Initially Dunenna didn't seem to care, but apparently later, it had some fueling issues. Interestingly in the error log, the refueling occurred during level flight, and during a shallow descent.

Fuel weight: 713.0 lbs (-383.0 lbs)
383*.06=0:22:59

Summary:
Direct distance: 221.6 nm
Flight time: 00:56:16
Baton time: 01:08:50
Average GS: 237.4 kts
Valid: not valid! (errors: 1)

CYPS 0:45.15 | 0:18:18 | 1:03:33
CYCG 0:51:35 | 0:21:45 | 1:13:20
KSFF 0:25:23 | 0:09:22 | 0:34:45
OR12 0:40:44 | 0:15:50 | 0:56:30
KSUN 0:34:39 | 0:14:20 | 0:57:59
36U 0:56:16 | 0:22:59 | 1:19:15

**flyon** · May 4th, 2013, 12:46

Nice pics. Watching this thread so far makes me miss flying in FSX (being the scenery in FS9 is blah...), and flying the A2A Mustang (mine's isn't Accusim though).
My hats off to you for landing that bird at some of these places (at least some of the places I've been at so far) on the Gold course.

**pilottj** · May 7th, 2013, 11:16

Back at it after a few days off. Here is the trip to KSBS. Everything green this time, started from a cold airplane, no 'extreme' maneuvers and Duenna played nice this time.

Fuel weight: 760.0 lbs (-335.0 lbs)
335*.06=0:20:06

Summary:
Direct distance: 208.1 nm
Flight time: 00:48:18
Baton time: 01:04:48
Average GS: 260.1 kts
Valid: VALIDATED

CYPS 0:45.15 | 0:18:18 | 1:03:33
CYCG 0:51:35 | 0:21:45 | 1:13:20
KSFF 0:25:23 | 0:09:22 | 0:34:45
OR12 0:40:44 | 0:15:50 | 0:56:30
KSUN 0:34:39 | 0:14:20 | 0:57:59
36U 0:56:16 | 0:22:59 | 1:19:15
KSBS 0:48:18 | 0:20:06 | 1:08:24

**pilottj** · May 8th, 2013, 12:13

Here is the trip to KBDU. I flew a pretty smooth trip, tho I did fly mostly from the right tank. The P-51's unused fuel is returned to the left tank. I am beginning to really think it is this returned fuel that is causing Duenna errors.

Anyway here is the data.

Fuel weight: 602.0 lbs (-150.0 lbs)
150*.06=0:09:00

Summary:
Direct distance: 80.1 nm
Flight time: 00:24:57
Baton time: 00:40:44
Average GS: 192.2 kts
Valid: not valid! (errors: 1)

CYPS 0:45.15 | 0:18:18 | 1:03:33
CYCG 0:51:35 | 0:21:45 | 1:13:20
KSFF 0:25:23 | 0:09:22 | 0:34:45
OR12 0:40:44 | 0:15:50 | 0:56:30
KSUN 0:34:39 | 0:14:20 | 0:57:59
36U 0:56:16 | 0:22:59 | 1:19:15
KSBS 0:48:18 | 0:20:06 | 1:08:24
KBDU 0:24:57 | 0:09:00 | 0:33:57

**pilottj** · May 12th, 2013, 09:43

Back in the saddle to KLXV. Short trip, only used left tank, duenna played nice this time.

Here is the data for KLXV.
Fuel weight: 961.0 lbs (-135.0 lbs)
135*.06=0:08:06

Summary:
Direct distance: 70.0 nm
Flight time: 00:24:41
Baton time: 00:35:33
Average GS: 168.0 kts
Valid: VALIDATED

CYPS 0:45.15 | 0:18:18 | 1:03:33
CYCG 0:51:35 | 0:21:45 | 1:13:20
KSFF 0:25:23 | 0:09:22 | 0:34:45
OR12 0:40:44 | 0:15:50 | 0:56:30
KSUN 0:34:39 | 0:14:20 | 0:57:59
36U 0:56:16 | 0:22:59 | 1:19:15
KSBS 0:48:18 | 0:20:06 | 1:08:24
KBDU 0:24:57 | 0:09:00 | 0:33:57
KLXV 0:24:41 | 0:08:06 | 0:32:47

**pilottj** · May 12th, 2013, 10:19

Short hop over to KASE, again only used left tank, no issues with Duenna.

Fuel weight: 1031.0 lbs (-71.0 lbs)
71*.06=0:04:16

Summary:
Direct distance: 25.8 nm
Flight time: 00:17:55
Baton time: 00:23:38
Average GS: 86.0 kts
Valid: VALIDATED

CYPS 0:45.15 | 0:18:18 | 1:03:33
CYCG 0:51:35 | 0:21:45 | 1:13:20
KSFF 0:25:23 | 0:09:22 | 0:34:45
OR12 0:40:44 | 0:15:50 | 0:56:30
KSUN 0:34:39 | 0:14:20 | 0:57:59
36U 0:56:16 | 0:22:59 | 1:19:15
KSBS 0:48:18 | 0:20:06 | 1:08:24
KBDU 0:24:57 | 0:09:00 | 0:33:57
KLXV 0:24:41 | 0:08:06 | 0:32:47
KASE 0:17:55 | 0:04:16 | 0:21:11

**pilottj** · May 17th, 2013, 15:57

Back in the ponyplane for the next leg to KTEX. No issues with Duenna.

Fuel weight: 922.0 lbs (-174.0 lbs)

174*.06=0:10:26

Summary:
Direct distance: 90.5 nm
Flight time: 00:31:53
Baton time: 00:43:32
Average GS: 169.6 kts
Valid: VALIDATED

CYPS 0:45.15 | 0:18:18 | 1:03:33
CYCG 0:51:35 | 0:21:45 | 1:13:20
KSFF 0:25:23 | 0:09:22 | 0:34:45
OR12 0:40:44 | 0:15:50 | 0:56:30
KSUN 0:34:39 | 0:14:20 | 0:57:59
36U 0:56:16 | 0:22:59 | 1:19:15
KSBS 0:48:18 | 0:20:06 | 1:08:24
KBDU 0:24:57 | 0:09:00 | 0:33:57
KLXV 0:24:41 | 0:08:06 | 0:32:47
KASE 0:17:55 | 0:04:16 | 0:21:11
KTEX 0:31:53 | 0:10:26 | 0:42:19

**pilottj** · May 17th, 2013, 17:09

Onward to KGCN. I figured since this was a longer leg, requiring switching of fuel tanks that Duenna would have problems...it did. I think this seems to be the main issue, unburned fuel being returned to the left tank. I'll post this question to the A2A folks and see what they say.

Fuel weight: 703.0 lbs (-381.0 lbs)
381*.06=0:22:52

Summary:
Direct distance: 236.1 nm
Flight time: 00:54:16
Baton time: 00:59:18
Average GS: 262.3 kts
Valid: not valid! (errors: 1)

CYPS 0:45.15 | 0:18:18 | 1:03:33
CYCG 0:51:35 | 0:21:45 | 1:13:20
KSFF 0:25:23 | 0:09:22 | 0:34:45
OR12 0:40:44 | 0:15:50 | 0:56:30
KSUN 0:34:39 | 0:14:20 | 0:57:59
36U 0:56:16 | 0:22:59 | 1:19:15
KSBS 0:48:18 | 0:20:06 | 1:08:24
KBDU 0:24:57 | 0:09:00 | 0:33:57
KLXV 0:24:41 | 0:08:06 | 0:32:47
KASE 0:17:55 | 0:04:16 | 0:21:11
KTEX 0:31:53 | 0:10:26 | 0:42:19
KGCN 0:54:16 | 0:22:52 | 1:17:08

**pilottj** · May 18th, 2013, 11:52

Here is the run to KLAS. Duenna played nice this time.

450.0 lbs (-244.0 lbs)
Fuel weight: 450.0 lbs (-244.0 lbs)
244*.06=0:14:38

Summary:
Direct distance: 145.4 nm
Flight time: 00:42:49
Baton time: 00:51:57
Average GS: 202.8 kts
Valid: VALIDATED

CYPS 0:45.15 | 0:18:18 | 1:03:33
CYCG 0:51:35 | 0:21:45 | 1:13:20
KSFF 0:25:23 | 0:09:22 | 0:34:45
OR12 0:40:44 | 0:15:50 | 0:56:30
KSUN 0:34:39 | 0:14:20 | 0:57:59
36U 0:56:16 | 0:22:59 | 1:19:15
KSBS 0:48:18 | 0:20:06 | 1:08:24
KBDU 0:24:57 | 0:09:00 | 0:33:57
KLXV 0:24:41 | 0:08:06 | 0:32:47
KASE 0:17:55 | 0:04:16 | 0:21:11
KTEX 0:31:53 | 0:10:26 | 0:42:19
KGCN 0:54:16 | 0:22:52 | 1:17:08
KLAS 0:42:49 | 0:14:38 | 0:57:27

***PRB*** · May 21st, 2013, 15:49

Hi TJ,

I added your data to the scoring page, as well as a link to the "logbook" for this run. While not scored, I couldn't pass up an opportunity to gather data for comparison with the GA planes.

**pilottj** · May 22nd, 2013, 08:41

Thanks Paul. It will be interesting to see how the P-51 compares. I'll fill in the log for these last few legs.

Duenna didn't like this trip. It was reasonably short and I didn't switch fuel tanks, but excess fuel still is taken from the left tank, and returned to the left tank.

Here is the data to L06. Note for the 'wear and tear' aspect of this test run, brakes starting to wear out. Just for fun, I will NOT repair it and see how it affects the rest of the trip.

Fuel weight: 943.0 lbs (-156.0 lbs)
156*.06=0:09:22

Summary:
Direct distance: 87.0 nm
Flight time: 00:28:09
Baton time: 00:31:28
Average GS: 186.5 kts
Valid: not valid! (errors: 1)

CYPS 0:45.15 | 0:18:18 | 1:03:33
CYCG 0:51:35 | 0:21:45 | 1:13:20
KSFF 0:25:23 | 0:09:22 | 0:34:45
OR12 0:40:44 | 0:15:50 | 0:56:30
KSUN 0:34:39 | 0:14:20 | 0:57:59
36U 0:56:16 | 0:22:59 | 1:19:15
KSBS 0:48:18 | 0:20:06 | 1:08:24
KBDU 0:24:57 | 0:09:00 | 0:33:57
KLXV 0:24:41 | 0:08:06 | 0:32:47
KASE 0:17:55 | 0:04:16 | 0:21:11
KTEX 0:31:53 | 0:10:26 | 0:42:19
KGCN 0:54:16 | 0:22:52 | 1:17:08
KLAS 0:42:49 | 0:14:38 | 0:57:27
L06 0:28:09 | 0:09:22 | 0:37:31

**pilottj** · May 23rd, 2013, 12:50

Here are the results to KRTS. Duenna had fuel issues on this leg. Being a longer let, I did switch fuel tanks a few times.

Both brakes are worn now, both of which I am not going to repair, will be fun getting into KSQL's short runway with shoddy brakes....this is why I love accusim :mixedsmi: LOL

Fuel weight: 689.0 lbs (-411.0 lbs
411*.06=0:24:40

Summary:
Direct distance: 238.2 nm
Flight time: 00:53:46
Baton time: 01:03:57
Average GS: 264.7 kts
Valid: not valid! (errors: 1)

CYPS 0:45.15 | 0:18:18 | 1:03:33
CYCG 0:51:35 | 0:21:45 | 1:13:20
KSFF 0:25:23 | 0:09:22 | 0:34:45
OR12 0:40:44 | 0:15:50 | 0:56:30
KSUN 0:34:39 | 0:14:20 | 0:57:59
36U 0:56:16 | 0:22:59 | 1:19:15
KSBS 0:48:18 | 0:20:06 | 1:08:24
KBDU 0:24:57 | 0:09:00 | 0:33:57
KLXV 0:24:41 | 0:08:06 | 0:32:47
KASE 0:17:55 | 0:04:16 | 0:21:11
KTEX 0:31:53 | 0:10:26 | 0:42:19
KGCN 0:54:16 | 0:22:52 | 1:17:08
KLAS 0:42:49 | 0:14:38 | 0:57:27
L06 0:28:09 | 0:09:22 | 0:37:31
KRTS 0:53:46 | 0:24:40 | 1:18:28

**pilottj** · May 23rd, 2013, 13:24

Quick hop to KTVL, duenna played nice here.

Fuel weight: 1001.0 lbs (-101.0 lbs)
101*.06=0:06:04

Summary:
Direct distance: 46.4 nm
Flight time: 00:17:57
Baton time: 00:20:45
Average GS: 154.6 kts
Valid: VALIDATED

CYPS 0:45.15 | 0:18:18 | 1:03:33
CYCG 0:51:35 | 0:21:45 | 1:13:20
KSFF 0:25:23 | 0:09:22 | 0:34:45
OR12 0:40:44 | 0:15:50 | 0:56:30
KSUN 0:34:39 | 0:14:20 | 0:57:59
36U 0:56:16 | 0:22:59 | 1:19:15
KSBS 0:48:18 | 0:20:06 | 1:08:24
KBDU 0:24:57 | 0:09:00 | 0:33:57
KLXV 0:24:41 | 0:08:06 | 0:32:47
KASE 0:17:55 | 0:04:16 | 0:21:11
KTEX 0:31:53 | 0:10:26 | 0:42:19
KGCN 0:54:16 | 0:22:52 | 1:17:08
KLAS 0:42:49 | 0:14:38 | 0:57:27
L06 0:28:09 | 0:09:22 | 0:37:31
KRTS 0:53:46 | 0:24:40 | 1:18:28
KTVL 0:17:57 | 0:06:04 | 0:24:01

**pilottj** · May 23rd, 2013, 18:57

Well guys, here is the last leg. Your pilot for this leg, who went over to a friends house and had a vodka tonic + 6 glasses of champagne...gets to fly an accusimmed P-51 with shoddy brakes to San Carlos...better get the firetrucks ready

I LOVE ACCUSIM!...why is she climbing like a dog...gear and flap switches are up...well drunkey the clown forgot to close the hydraulic release valve before takeoff! amazing how much faster she climbs when the dangly things are up

**pilottj** · May 23rd, 2013, 20:02

Ok boys, here are the numbers. Duenna played nice for this last leg here. Feel free to analyze the numbers.

I hope you guys can work her in to the RTW race and future SOH races. I did not push the P-51 during this trip thanks to accusim. I cruised at 43" 2500 RPM for all legs. A few of the legs I flew via navaids for the fun of it, and one leg I threw her around a bit to test duenna's response. As you can see, apart from worn brakes, the Merlin handled the course just fine since she wasn't pushed too hard.

Fuel weight: 865.0 lbs (-237.0 lbs)
237*.06=0:14:13

Summary:
Direct distance: 134.7 nm
Flight time: 00:38:16
Baton time: 00:41:44
Average GS: 212.7 kts
Valid: VALIDATED

CYPS 0:45.15 | 0:18:18 | 1:03:33
CYCG 0:51:35 | 0:21:45 | 1:13:20
KSFF 0:25:23 | 0:09:22 | 0:34:45
OR12 0:40:44 | 0:15:50 | 0:56:30
KSUN 0:34:39 | 0:14:20 | 0:57:59
36U 0:56:16 | 0:22:59 | 1:19:15
KSBS 0:48:18 | 0:20:06 | 1:08:24
KBDU 0:24:57 | 0:09:00 | 0:33:57
KLXV 0:24:41 | 0:08:06 | 0:32:47
KASE 0:17:55 | 0:04:16 | 0:21:11
KTEX 0:31:53 | 0:10:26 | 0:42:19
KGCN 0:54:16 | 0:22:52 | 1:17:08
KLAS 0:42:49 | 0:14:38 | 0:57:27
L06 0:28:09 | 0:09:22 | 0:37:31
KRTS 0:53:46 | 0:24:40 | 1:18:28
KTVL 0:17:57 | 0:06:04 | 0:24:01
KSQL 0:38:16 | 0:14:13 | 0:52:29

Cheers
TJ

**Howellerman** · May 23rd, 2013, 21:19

Heya TJ,

Well done! I think this was an outstanding "experiment", particularly given the nature of Accusim with the accumulated wear and tear on the airframe.

I do have to laugh, though: those compression ratio values (yes, I have both versions of A2A Mustangs) are sooooo low (my 2V Ford 289 records 115 PSI). I guess the Rolls-Royce guys knew that high boost (60"!!!) would frag a high-compression engine, ergo the low compression ratio.

Again, well done. I want to retry portions of the Low Course with my RealAir Duke, but the Civilian Mustang would certainly be fun from Kalispel down to Jackson Hole!

JKH

**pilottj** · May 25th, 2013, 16:23

Thanks JKH,

Yeah please go ahead and try the high course in the P-51, see if you get the same duenna errors that I did. The more data that we can get for Paul, Mike and everyone the better. Hopefully they can figure out some solutions for future events

. I think the flight tracking data is interesting. The P-51 is indeed faster, but her merlin is quite a thirsty engine.

Some of the folks at A2A have suggested this is in fact the fuel vapor returning to left tank, in essence 'refueling' the aircraft. I'll fly a few trips in the P-40 using duenna, which also simulates returned fuel to the Reserve tank. I'll see if this has similar issues.

Here is the A2A thread.
http://a2asimulations.com/forum/view...p?f=94&t=34670

Cheers
TJ