I went to the Naval Aviation Museum in Pensacola in November 2011 and shot a couple not-very-good pics of the SB2U. The gun barrels in the wings (actually appear to be sleeves for the gun barrels) protrude out from the leading edge maybe 3/4" to 1" (see pic). Using the GunTubes objects will at least show there is a gun there when they're not firing. Sorry, I haven't worked with DPEd in a long time so I haven't got the dp line entries for Allen's overhauled airframe.Originally Posted by Fibber
..keep finding the same picture. That is why I had said different pictures of this bird are hard to find. But what I did find show the guns as recessed in the wing(s), but I will keep looking. Does anyone have the schematics of the plane? That should show whether recessed or protruding?
i have a b&w photo of a USMC sb2u3 with 4 guns protruding similar to this one. not sure that I can post due to copywrite.
....some additional views of this bird http://www.milavnarc.com/sb2u_detail_photos.html
I've looked all over Google and Bing. The ONLY SB2U that shows guns out of the wing is the National Museum of Naval Aviation one that was rebuilt in the 90s. I can fix a gun to the wing but I really don't see a point. None of the historal pics show any guns.
Also still looking for some one to do the .air.
"Let Being Helpful Be More Important Than Being Right!" Some SOH Founder.
Kelti already did a good air file. Just integrate your details into what he's already done. As for the guns, don't sweat the small stuff. What you have is good enough for the job.
♠♠
"If you're in a fair fight, you didn't plan it right"
As said don't sweat it. Everything I have looked at has the guns in the wing and NOT extending. The only thing seems to be that, I believe, the gun was in the RIGHT wing with provisions on the left wing to have one installed. There were small ports on both wings to visually check that the guns were loaded.
Some of this is in the walk around guide pics I posted above.
None are really close at all. Most have rate of climb twice of the SB2U. Engine is 200 to 400 HP more and range is less than half.
I got real close but I'm have a prob with the engine. It has no acceleration. It takes time spool up to full power and the other I'm almost sure of it is the 1740 lbs of extra fuel that the SB2U-3 has. The SB2U-2 only had 130 gals to the SB2U-3 420 gal.
Fibber
The gun is in the right wing already.
"Let Being Helpful Be More Important Than Being Right!" Some SOH Founder.
Allen, I just posted the Naval Aviation Museum photo since it's the only remaining SB2U in existence. I agree with you, not worth the effort to put a visible gun on the plane for little or no visual effect. I'm just happy to see all the improvements to Paul's original plane. New textures, prop, prop disk, cowl scoop, etc. I'd love to know how you do all these adjustments. I have FSDS but I never got past the basic tutorials, and as far as the alphanumeric stuff in a mdl file I have no idea what it all means.
Hi Allen and all the others,
I am sorry I stirred such trouble by mentioning protruding gun barrels, after all a good, detailed repaint will take care of it by painting the gun hole on the wing and the necessary weathering.
Allen, as to airfile and dp, you must have have missed the beta flight model (airfile and aircraft.cfg) plus dp I posted here, in reply #34,
http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforum...n-update/page3
for Bearcat to do a test run with. Please, download those files and let me know what do you think.
- The airfile has the correct historical fuselage and wing tanks fuel capacities, correct engine specs, wing area and wing dimensions, but it lacks correct taiplane and vertical fin dimensions, which I could not find anywhere.
- The dp has Dbolt's US weapons, but it needs the unprotected wing tanks data, which I asked you to add earlier.
Since then in the dp:
- I adjusted muzzle flash locations for the single .50" (I am working with the aircraft historical layout at Midway in mind, the only time the SB2U-3 went in action in the Pacific) wing gun and the rear .30".
- I slightly modified the payload array placing the single 500lb GP bomb as primary offensive layout, #1 in the payload selection, having considered the historical pilot interview, pointed out by Fibber, where he states that anything heavier then a 500 pounder made the Vindicator almost unfliable.
- I added gauge-controlled exhaust effects.
in the airfile:
- I added the FS2002-propeller reversal feature (historical, to slow down dive speed) record, but still I haven't found how to activate it.
Now I am dealing with an obnoxious ground-shaking behaviour that I am slowly curing working with the contact points, let me know if yours dances the shake while standing on the runway as well. I will post later during the day dp and flight model I got so far, for your further evaluation.
If you still think the Vindicator with my airfile hasn't enough takeoff power loaded with ordnance, keep in mind it was not a hot-rod aircraft at all. When the SB2U's destined to France were delivered to RAF instead, they were thoroughly tested and the same conclusions, found out the hard way by the US Navy, were drawn. The plane was deemed unsuitable for carrier ops "for unsatisfactory takeoff performance" and sent to OTUs right away.
Otherwise such flattering surnames like "Vibrators" and "Wind indicators" would have never been born: with only 825 hp in the nose the SB2U was a flying truck. Although it had the merit to transition the US Navy from biplane era into the monoplane, retractable gear and folding wings modern times, replacement with the SBD came never too soon.
Cheers!
KH :ernae:
Allen,
here are the updated FM and the dp, you enclosed in your above beta upload, with my payload modifications and exh effects. I also cleaned out the stock effect #, to prevent clone generation when the aircraft is shot down.
The aircraft.cfg has corrected contact points, in my pc the aircraft does not shake anymore on the ground, and flight attitude compensation to raise the tail in level flight. The airfile is still the same, in need of the data to make it more accurate I wrote about earlier.
Cheers!
KH :ernae:
I didn't see that at all. :-/ Anyway....
Update the .air from page 3. Wing span, fuel tanks, propeller and AI for landing. Propeller reversal can't be done in CFS2. The need logic was removed. It was in FS2000 that was before CFS2. Lots of ther things from FS2000 are in CFS2 but not that.
Below is my rework of eveything......
AirWrench including full fuel (420 gals) + 50 gal drop, Pilot and Gunner (170 lbs) and guns (.50cal 200 rounds and .30 cal 1000):
Empty Weight: 5634 lbs
Gross Weight: 8836 lbs
Gross Weight No Drop Tank: 8536 lbs
Speed Sea Level: 228 MPH
Speed at 9500 Ft: 240 MPH
Range at 32 MP / 2625 RPM at Sea Level : 2,665 miles
Rate of Climb: 1078 FPM
Historal data:
Empty Weight: 5634 lbs
Gross Weight: 7474 lbs
Speed Sea Level: 232 MPH
Speed at 9500 Ft: 243 MPH
Range :2,675 miles with 50 gal drop tank
Rate of Climb: 1070 FPM
The maximum fuel data is very wild. One 420 gals. This dosn't say if it includes a drop tank or not. Next one says 464 gal, no drop tank can be added and another 477 gal but dosn't say if a drop tank could be added. Why my Gross Weight is 1000+ lbs more I don't know. AvGas is 6.02 lbs a gal, just call it 6 lbs a gal. 6 x 420=2,520 lbs. Pilot and gunner are 170 lbs each for total of 340 lbs. The .30 ammo is 0.35 oz (0.021875 lbs) x 1000=21.875 lbs and .50 ammo is 1.6 oz (0.1 lbs) x 200 = 20 lbs. Total for ammo for both guns is 41.875 lbs or 42 lbs.
2,520 lbs Fuel 420 gals
340 lbs Pilot and Gunner
42 lbs for guns ammo
___________________
2902 lbs :Total Weight Fuel, Humans and Ammo
5634 lbs :Empty Weight
2902 lbs :Weight Fuel, Humans and Ammo
_____________________
8536 lbs :Gross Weight No Drop Tank
I've calculated evey thing eveyway I could.The only way that you can ge down to the historal gross weight of 7474 lbs is to cut fuel down to 305 gals and keep the same pilots and gun ammo weight but range is down to 1790 miles at 32 MP / 2625 RPM at Sea Level.
Most of my Historal data is from
http://www.microworks.net/pacific/av...vindicator.htm
This one says 2,640 miles with 50 gal drop tank
http://www.voughtaircraft.com/herita...ml/sb2u-3.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
With that out of the way. I fixed the DP up some more. I forgot to move the effects when I re-did the boxes. I added your effects to the DP as you did NOT need to remove the effect # as the model is breaking part and needs those. There should be no clone probs unless I messed somthing up in the linking/naming of parts.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I also worked on the aircraft.cfg. Fixed the shaking when I re-did the gear to keep the AI from running off the runway and into the water after landing. Reset the TailHook better and did the LSO. You can't really get the SB2U-3 off of a Carrer anyway. If you set the breaks and run up to full power and pray you can just get it off the Carrer. If you add a drop or bomb your crashing. Also the added fx_exh_Clawson_SB2U_KH.fx
Attachment 82751
"Let Being Helpful Be More Important Than Being Right!" Some SOH Founder.
Good job, Allen!
My, this reply is precious! :d
Your effort to stick to historical tech data is truly admirable, but we should probably be a little more tolerant here and there. For example, if I were you, I wouldn't worry so much about carrier performance, since it's a well-known historical fact the SB2U performed indeed so poorly that both US Navy and the RAF/FAA denied wartime carrier qualification to this airplane.
I stirred up this project starting from a request from Fibber to paint a better prop blurred disc and fly the SB2U in the only significant mission it ever flew: one of the Midway Battle, June 4th, 1942, morning opening attacks to Kido Butai.
A mission that failed to score anything significant, due to the obsolete, helplessly slow Vindicator. Therefore we'll all fly Allen's upgrade of Clawson's converted SB2U-3 taking off from Midway main runway, allowing a longer takeoff run than it would be from a carrier deck.
Read the interview with Sumner H. Whitten, a Marine pilot, Midway surviver who flew SB2U-3 #11 during the battle, whose link here:
http://www.microworks.net/pacific/av...vindicator.htm
was posted by TARPSbird.
Mr. Whitten comments about the SB2U real-life (do not download the page, as I did, because there's a virus lurking in it!) performance match exactly your simulator experience! It's very interesting reading where those VMSB-241 irregular white bands around the fuselage came from, it was medical tape to keep the fuselage aging fabric cover from ripping up!
The fuel capacity info, for each of the three tanks I entered in the airfile, comes from the same interview with Mr. Whitten.
As to the drop tank layout, even if I included it in the dp, I assure you it's almost fictional due to the largely contraddicting data available, as you found out yourself. If it's a problem for the airplane total gross weight, we'll simply rem out the dp entry, or leave it for possible fictional missions that might be written for this plane. Which I do not believe will ever materialise, being this aircraft everything but fun to fly, even the British Swordfish feels nimbler than the SB2U!
Let me add I bet also there will not be many SOH's members who will enjoy flying the Vindicator Midway mission, just a few of us, crazy for the thrill of re-enacting an historical aviation event!
Thank you for pointing out we cannot have reversing prop action in CFS2, I didn't know better. Too bad, we'll drop the landing gear down, as it was done in real life, to slow the plane during dives. Thanks also for activating again the effect #s, I was under the impression that only CFS2 stockers could use them and I am sorry if it meant extra work for you.
I can't wait to try out the new files you attached!
Cheers!
KH :ernae:
If you cut fuel load to 31% or 130 gals like the -1 and -2 had you can take off from a Yorktown Class just fine.
I saw the interview with Mr. Whitten. I'm thinking that maybe he included the drop tank fuel with the main tank. He say the main tank was 253 gals and wings 224 for a total of 277. If I remove the 50 from the main tank I get 7 gals over the 420 gal that is common.
Removing the drop tank will not help much it is only 300 lbs when used. Gross Weight with no Drop Tank is 8,536 lbs. 1060 more than historical. Even if I remove the pilot, gunner and ammo with the drop tank I'm still 680 over historical.
I'm guessing that the historical Gross Weight was done with no fuel in the wing tanks. Using Mr. Whitten 253 gal x 6= 1536 lbs + Empty Weight: 5634 lbs + pilot and gunner 340 lbs= Gross Weight 7510 lbs HOWEVER going wit my guess that Mr. Whitten may have included the drop tank fuel with the main tank fuel. By remove 50 gals (300 lbs) that would be the drop tank from the main tank I get a total of 7192 lbs.
This puts me under by 300-ish lbs but if historical Gross Weight was done with 4 .50 cals in the wings and .50 cal in the tail. That could be the missing 300-ish lbs.
"Let Being Helpful Be More Important Than Being Right!" Some SOH Founder.
Great, Allen!
In any case, let me assure you that the demo v.2 you posted flies real well. No more runway shake dance and a fair maneuverability with CFS2 flight model set on "hard".
What I did not understand is the decrease in the wing total area and the low altitude boost gain decreased from 3 to 1 in the airfile, which made me use 80% of the runway just to raise the tail and I pruned all of the trees, I planted at the end of the runway, with the undercarriage when I finally took off! I'll have to call in the maintenance crew to cut those beautiful trees down....
And I had no bombs with a 50% fuel load.........I think I'll reset the airfile to the larger wing area and a little more low altitude boost gain if I want to fill 'er up and carry a 500lb bomb!!!
Other than that, I truly think the SB2U overhaul/upgrade v.2 could be uploaded as a complete pack, waiting only for our great repainters to start working on her. I took the liberty to delete the tail white band and replace it with some lengths of medical tape to make your skin more VMSB-241, "Midway-looking".
I assure you the taped-up Clawson/Allen's Vought SB2U-3 Vindicator looks real good!Anyone out there willing to offer a Vought Chesapeake MkI skin for it?
Cheers!
KH :ernae:
The wings are right for all data I have. Wing Span 42 feet or 504 inches and area of 305 square feet. You have the wing span at 672 inches or 56 feet. That is a wing span of 14 feet more that the SB2U had. I didn't change "low altitude boost gain". I changed Minimum Manifold Pressure or the Manifold Pressure when at idle. Chnaging Minimum Manifold Pressure has no effet on Maximum Manifold Pressure or Horsepower.
Take off is hard for you since the SB2U you posted on page 3 had 14 more feet of wing span the give more lift and in the aircraft.cfg you had cruise_lift_scalar= set to 1.3 also giving more lift. This has given the aircraft much more lift than it really had.
Take off from Midway
SB2U-3 full fuel, no bomb/drop tank. Apply full prop and throttle. At 55-60 knots raise the tail (this should happen after the palm tree on the left and before the 3 hangers) and 80 knots pull back on the stick lightly (you should be at the 3rd hanger) Once off the ground pull up the gear (gear should be up by the palm tree on the left after the 3 hangers) and hold level flight tell at 114 knots. Climb speed for SB2U-3 full fuel no bomb/drop tank is 114 knots.
Wing Span and area square feet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vought_...s_.28SB2U-2.29
Wing Span and area square feet
http://www.microworks.net/pacific/av...vindicator.htm
Wing Span and area square feet
http://wwarii.com/blog/archives/sb2u-vindicators/
Wing Span and area square feet
http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/S/b/SB2U_Vindicator.htm
"Let Being Helpful Be More Important Than Being Right!" Some SOH Founder.
The caption next to pic #30 at the above link states:
"Although the SB2U-2 usually only carried one machine gun in the right wing, provisions were made for one to be installed in the left wing as well. A small window allowed the pilot and any maintenance personnel to quickly check to see if ammunition was loaded into the box for the gun. A small gage was located just outboard of the window."
Just a FYI (if it helps any that is).
:USA-flag:
Thank you Allen!
I probably miscalculated the conversion from feet to inches and viceversa to replace the Dauntless data and enter the correct SB2U wing area figure.
Attached below are the latest things I did, alternative lighter prop discs and a "Midway-like" fuselage skin. In the fuselage file I touched-up the prop blade Hamilton Strd. brand emblem using the drawing from Dbolt's US propellers included in all of The B24 Guy's US stock overhauls. With this touchup the prop blades match the blurred disc.
Cheers!
KH :ernae:
Lookin' good guys!
Keep your airspeed up,
Jagdflieger
http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforum...me=Jagdflieger
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty
to purchase a little Temporary Safety,
deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Benjamin Franklin
I'll port over the larger Hamilton Strd. brand emblem but the white stipes are going. Found a pic of said plane. No white medical tape at all on it.
"Let Being Helpful Be More Important Than Being Right!" Some SOH Founder.
I like it!
Neat shot!
That must be a frame of John Ford's Midway movie and that bird sure looks like VMSB-241 #2 SB2U-3, clean as a whistle. By the same token you can have two skins at the price of one, just by changing the fuselage #!
The Hamilton emblem is only one pixel larger than the previous one, it looks bigger because it's brighter, but I did my best to position it matching your dark blurred texture as well. Your choice of stock CFS2-like blurred prop texture is perfect, I always liked the difference in texture when the engine starts and the prop is spinning slowly. Some designers came up with intricate solutions to simulate such effect, like adding extra blurred, thicker discs to the model, but Microsoft's designers had the best idea since the beginning.
I'll be out of town for the weekend, back on Monday. Have a nice one!
Cheers!
KH :ernae:
I have followed the thread from the first day and downloaded the different versions and updates. The bird is superb.
Here is a picture of her over Midway (the "Midway 42" scenery with a layout by myself, made from maps of the island in 1942)
.Attachment 83048
For the lady, I have upgraded the 2D and VC panels made by Allen (made from scratch and pictures founded on the web) Attachment 83050Attachment 83049
If you you are interested in, tell me, I will be pleased to send it to you
Thanks again for the bird
I'll take any thing for the panels at this point. I didn't have much to go on. A pic from SB2U-2 1938 and from the SB2U-2 rebuilt in the 90s. Both were low res pics.
"Let Being Helpful Be More Important Than Being Right!" Some SOH Founder.
A few nice model photos here:-
http://waihobbies.wkhc.net/models/Vi...indicator.html
another couple of links:-
http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/DETAILSITE/US/USN/sb2u/2u.cockpit.page.htm
http://www.milavnarc.com/sb2u_detail_photos.html
A small Note About Midway. Eastern Island was the main Island and sand island secondary. There was only one hanger on Sand Island and one on Eastern Island. The funny thing is that the IJN forces also got the PX which was on Eastern Island thinking it was also a hanger.Midway was told to dig underground living spaces as well as storage ,cooking and hospital spaces underground which they did. They also dug revetments for the aircraft slanted about 10ft down.
BOB EDWARDS
You have to understand the CFS2 AI inorder to command them.
Why walk when you can ride
It is not what CFS2 is doing but what it looks like it is doing that counts
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