AI weights
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Thread: AI weights

  1. #1

    Question AI weights

    Just read a bit over on the OFF forum having to do with the fact that the AI's in that sim apparently are flying with empty weight values for fuel, pilot, and ammo loads, giving them greater maneuverability. There is even a couple of fixes for this glitch.

    Got me to wondering if the same is true for our sims here, since they are all CFS3 based.

    How on earth (or in the air) could one tell if your opponent weighs less than he should?

    So many questions...

  2. #2

    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by KellyB View Post
    Just read a bit over on the OFF forum having to do with the fact that the AI's in that sim apparently are flying with empty weight values for fuel, pilot, and ammo loads, giving them greater maneuverability. There is even a couple of fixes for this glitch.

    Got me to wondering if the same is true for our sims here, since they are all CFS3 based.

    How on earth (or in the air) could one tell if your opponent weighs less than he should?

    So many questions...

    Hey KellyB thatís an interesting question. I recall that many moons ago when CFS3 was in its infancy. There was a fix for it. AI's :greenbo:jumping round like cats on a hot tin roof. Alas I lost it. Maybe somebody else will remember it. :salute:
    CHEERS

  3. #3
    This is a known issue. If you look at Nigel's 109, they all have an AI version. This specific AI version is loaded with an invisible weight to simulate pilot and fuel. Look into the loadout section of xdp files.
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Led Zeppelin View Post
    This is a known issue. If you look at Nigel's 109, they all have an AI version. This specific AI version is loaded with an invisible weight to simulate pilot and fuel. Look into the loadout section of xdp files.
    I looked at one of his ai's vs the full aircraft and I am filled with wonder!

    Where would the weight for the ai be located within the loadouts?

  5. #5
    I am not at home at the moment so I can't look into CFS3.

    I don't remember if it is a pylon or a weapon that simulate the weight.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by KellyB View Post
    I looked at one of his ai's vs the full aircraft and I am filled with wonder!

    Where would the weight for the ai be located within the loadouts?
    Hi KellyB, As well as Led Zep's examples, you will find a lot of ETO aircraft have an AI version. Their cunning system sets the "real" version's xdp to spawn=n, so that in general play the AI version spawns. This allows a heavier flight model and lower rate limit for defensive guns to be used in the spawning version.

    But I thought that the additional weight for the AI version was set in the cfg file? but like Loic I am not on my CFS3 computer so cannot check.... but i seem to remember editing AI Me110s, because in general dogfights the dad-blasted 110s seemed to run rings around my Spitfire-equipped wingmen. this amazing flight ability did not seem right and an extra few 100kgs for the AI 110s seemed to make them more like the ungainly ugly ducklings they should be

    David

  7. #7
    I think I'm seeing glimmers of light here. I found an extra pylon in Nigel's 109 ai version which would supposedly carry weight I guess. I haven't actually loaded his planes to see how it works, but will shortly.

    As to the AI in ETO, I found a number of ai xpd's but the Aircraft cfg files don't appear to be set up correctly. Also in both their xpd files, the AllowSpawn is set to "y."

    I shall follow Nigel's tut on making AI and fix one up to see how it works out.

    This is good for us old folks; keeps the cells firing. Much better than Bingo!!!

  8. #8
    It's a fake pylon at the 0,0,0 position (couldn't be bothered to work out the degree of fore-and-aft) which cannot be jettisoned, unlike a weapon. As it adds weight without fiddling with the flight dynamics - which is what others have often done - it seems to me to be the best solution. I didn't invent it - it's a MAW prototype mod which we finally decided not to use, possibly because it can get a bit out of control, having AI versions for each aircraft.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by KellyB View Post

    As to the AI in ETO, I found a number of ai xpd's but the Aircraft cfg files don't appear to be set up correctly. Also in both their xpd files, the AllowSpawn is set to "y."

    ........................
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by ndicki View Post
    It's a fake pylon at the 0,0,0 position (couldn't be bothered to work out the degree of fore-and-aft) which cannot be jettisoned, unlike a weapon. As it adds weight without fiddling with the flight dynamics - which is what others have often done - it seems to me to be the best solution. I didn't invent it - it's a MAW prototype mod which we finally decided not to use, possibly because it can get a bit out of control, having AI versions for each aircraft.
    When I went back and compared the standard and ai versions of your Bf109G-6 Yellow 6, I finally figured this out. Seeing the additional pylon in the Clean loadout, I went and looked at the pylon and found out that all it did was to add weight.

    Thank you for confirming for me; it now makes sense to me.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by ndicki View Post
    It's a fake pylon at the 0,0,0 position (couldn't be bothered to work out the degree of fore-and-aft) which cannot be jettisoned, unlike a weapon. As it adds weight without fiddling with the flight dynamics - which is what others have often done - it seems to me to be the best solution. I didn't invent it - it's a MAW prototype mod which we finally decided not to use, possibly because it can get a bit out of control, having AI versions for each aircraft.
    Hi ndicki

    I'm also interested in this subject.

    Do you mean that the fake pylon weight is not included in ETO but it's incuded in MAW?

    Is the fake pylon visible?

    Cheers

    vonOben

  12. #12
    Charter Member 2016 mongoose's Avatar
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    Hi Nigel1 As with Per, I am interested in the idea, in my case NJ fighters. If one uses a null pylon, would one just change the weight depending on the type of ac?

    Cato said "Carthaginem esse delendam"
    I say "Carthago iam diu deleta,sed enim Bellum Alium adhuc aedificandum est"

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by mongoose View Post
    Hi Nigel1 As with Per, I am interested in the idea, in my case NJ fighters. If one uses a null pylon, would one just change the weight depending on the type of ac?
    When flying a twin engine fighter, espacially NJG heavy ones, AI is unable to shot down an unsecorted and undefended bomber that don't make any evasive actions. So if you add extra weights, it will be worse.

    Personnally, when I fly a RAF heavy bomber at night, the only enemy aircrafts that can appear are single engine fighters. This is not realistic because only a very few NJG's were equipped with them but, missions are much more challenging and immersive.
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  14. #14
    Charter Member 2016 mongoose's Avatar
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    Loic yr point taken. I just change the "sniper effects' on the twin engine AIs and use my own spawns only. Useful info though for Pat's BoB and other fighter engagements.

    Cato said "Carthaginem esse delendam"
    I say "Carthago iam diu deleta,sed enim Bellum Alium adhuc aedificandum est"

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by vonOben View Post
    Hi ndicki

    I'm also interested in this subject.

    Do you mean that the fake pylon weight is not included in ETO but it's incuded in MAW?

    Is the fake pylon visible?

    Cheers

    vonOben
    I've been thinking some more about this and a few more questions came up:

    * What is de benefit using pylons instead of increasing the empty_weight in the AI cfg-files - which is the way it has been done in a "Empty weight" mod for OFF?

    * If you use the pylon idea how does that effect your squadron AI's in a campaign? Do they get pylons but you don't?

    Cheers

    vonOben

  16. #16

    Question

    **BUMP**

    Does anyone know?

    Cheers

    vonOben

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by vonOben View Post
    I've been thinking some more about this and a few more questions came up:

    * What is de benefit using pylons instead of increasing the empty_weight in the AI cfg-files - which is the way it has been done in a "Empty weight" mod for OFF?

    * If you use the pylon idea how does that effect your squadron AI's in a campaign? Do they get pylons but you don't?

    Cheers

    vonOben
    I have no idea what the fake pylon is actually included in as a direct-install package. If it was included with MAW, then it'll be included with ETO since as far as I can tell all the MAW files were simply taken over by ETO in any case. As for example the engine sounds, weapons, etc.

    No idea if there is any benefit to using one system rather than the other. I simply use the one I know better. The pylon is invisible and cannot be dropped.

    It is up to you/the aircraft developer to decide whether or not to apply this system to your aircraft - some may not need it, such as the night fighters you mentioned. But when a Bf110 can outfly a single-seater for example, there is clearly a problem. Do bear in mind that some of the aircraft used as night fighters, especially by the Germans, were not exactly models of high-performance...

    It doesn't affect your squadron's AIs at all, because your squadron will be flying the aircraft you fly, regardless. That means that your squadron will have to fly the player version. That cannot be helped as the game engine does this automatically. It will however, if used correctly, ensure that all the other AI aircraft have the added weight of the crew and fuel, etc.
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  18. #18
    Thanks ndick, much appreciated info!

    I did as KellyB wrote "compared the standard and ai versions of your Bf109G-6 Yellow 6" to check how you did it and started by downloading DL_Bf109g-6_JG101.zip.

    From DL_109g6_101.xdp

    <Loadouts>
    <Loadout Name="Clean"/>
    <Loadout Name="(1)300l Drop Tank">
    <Hardpoint ID="0" PylonType="dr_109g6_pylon" PayloadType="AvHistory_gr_109_tank_300L" Quantity="1"/>
    </Loadout>
    </Loadouts>

    From AI_109g6_101.xdp

    <Loadouts>
    <Loadout Name="Clean">
    <Hardpoint ID="0" PylonType="750_pylon_null" PayloadType=""/>
    </Loadout>
    <Loadout Name="(1)300l Drop Tank" MissionType="Escort,CAP,Intercept,Sweep,Nothing,Bo mber_Intercept">
    <Hardpoint ID="0" PylonType="dr_109g6_pylon_750" PayloadType="AvHistory_gr_109_tank_300L" Quantity="1"/>
    </Loadout>
    </Loadouts>

    The difference is this row:

    <Hardpoint ID="0" PylonType="750_pylon_null" PayloadType=""/>

    But where is the weight coming from???

    Cheers

    vonOben

  19. #19
    Look in your pylons folder and find the xdp file for the pylon in question. Open it up, and you'll see!

    Category="weapon" Country="neutral" Mass="750"></General>
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  20. #20

    Question

    Hi ndicki

    Yes I thought it would be something like that, but I searched my ETO folder for 750_pylon_null but found nothing.
    It was not included in the zip either, so where can I find this file?

    Cheers

    vonOben

  21. #21

    Question

    Hi again ndicki

    How do you calculate the appropriate weight for each plane type?

    Cheers

    vonOben

  22. #22
    von Oben: As I understand it, they are native to MAW's pylons and can be ported over to ETO's pylon folder.

    I did notice that there are 4 separate null pylons, each with a different weight (mass). None of them in MAW has an Md3 file, while there is one in ETO. I don't know what to make of that since I'm not sure what would be in the Md3 file for a null pylon.

    Later, I'll remove it from my install and see if it makes a difference.
    What would be better is to have Ndicki or someone else who actually knows about it to tell us howse come?

  23. #23
    They should all have m3d files. If they don't, they'll lock you up just as any missing pylon will lock you up. Don't ask if they were released with this or that, because as I was on the development team of MAW and collected all sorts of odds and ends, and refuse to cooperate with ETO for a number of reasons, I have no idea what a stock install of either might contain. If you have the one m3d, just copy it and change the names until you have as many as you need.

    Don't forget that for aircraft with a payload - drop tank, bombs, etc - you don't need a dummy pylon. You can use a real one. Check how I did this for the 109 series. If the loads are wing-mounted, you will need to divide the added weight equally between each wing. I used this system for the Fairey Battle (though may not have released it) and now the AI version flies like a house-brick as it ought to, not like a Spitfire!

    To some extent, determining the weight to add is guesswork - you need to cumulate the weight of the crew and their equipment, the fuel allowing for depletion during the flight to the area of operations, and ammunition. In practice, there's a certain amount of trial and error to see, quite simply, what the best compromise is between the AI's "rocket mode" and reasonable laden performance. As you can't fly it yourself to test, it's not as scientific as the development of the flyable flight dynamics. If you do try to fly the AIs, the game engine will add the fuel, etc, anyway, so you'll be carrying it twice...
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  24. #24

    Hi

    Thanks for that info KellyB and ndicki!

    So I need to install MAW to get that pylon, the readme did not mention that.
    It's not included in any other of your aircraft zip files by any chance?

    Cheers

    vonOben

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by vonOben View Post
    Hi

    Thanks for that info KellyB and ndicki!

    So I need to install MAW to get that pylon, the readme did not mention that.
    It's not included in any other of your aircraft zip files by any chance?

    Cheers

    vonOben
    Quote Originally Posted by ndicki View Post
    Don't ask if they were released with this or that, because ... I have no idea what a stock install of either might contain. If you have the one m3d, just copy it and change the names until you have as many as you need.
    You don't need to install MAW to get it - you very possibly won't get it from MAW. No idea, as I stated above. But I would encourage you to install MAW if you haven't already, because it is the single most important add-on ever made for WW2 CFS3, and remains a model of how to get it right.

    The pylon is included with those DL/DR2 Bf109s we've included it with. I have no idea any longer which are the 'base' models and include all the bits and pieces, and which are 'second-line' ones. But the dummy pylon m3d is the same model throughout, although may be found with different names and different weights. If you have the DL/DR2 Bf109s installed, then you have every piece of the puzzle.
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