A B-17F wanted

[Bone]

I believe he was talking about all the G's that were still in the assembly pipeline when the war ended. After the war there were 100's just sitting around with no war to go to. You could buy a B-17 for about 3000 dollars, and a P-38 for 1500 dollars....with full gas tanks. Seriously, the US government started auctioning them off to anyone with the money.

I like the pics BTW, I'm a B-17 ETO fanatic.

[rwmarth]

I would love for this to be explained in detail (how majorly different, as described, could the systems be?). Even with a few differences, it wouldn't be all that much of a stretch from the A2A P-40B/C Tomahawk, which has several details and characteristics incorporated from later-models (most noticable perhaps, that being the emergency hydraulic system), that are not correct for the variant (and is advertised as a "Warhawk", a name that was applied later on).

In the USAAF training video of the P-40, a later variant than the A2A models, it is noted that ALL models of the P-40 have the emergency "independent" hydraulic system except for the P-40L. Of course the accuracy of a lot of those training films can be a bit dodgy at times, but it certainly is something to consider as they are the actual army films.

Additionally, here is a link of a manual from early Tomahawk models of the P-40 included with notes from AVG pilots (concerning operating the emergency pump included). The manual is a bit of a mystery as discussed in the modern day intro.

http://www.keyos.org/avia/usa/curtis...40/manual1.htm
"In the event of a hydraulic failure, the handle was removed from its normal position, and placed on a second position outboard of the normal position. In this position, would direct pressure to the main gear and lower the mains, but it would not lower the tail wheel which was left retracted."

[Bomber_12th]

The P-40B/C was withdrawn from service in the USAAF shortly after the U.S. entered the war, with the P-40D and E already on the scene/coming on the scene in numbers. By the time that movie was shot, the B/C was no longer part of the picture, with the E, F, K, L, and N models long surpassing the B/C's.

I hope the Flight Replicas P-40N will get finished - it will be perfect, without doubt.

[rwmarth]

The P-40B/C was withdrawn from service in the USAAF shortly after the U.S. entered the war, with the P-40D and E already on the scene/coming on the scene in numbers. By the time that movie was shot, the B/C was no longer part of the picture, with the E, F, K, L, and N models long surpassing the B/C's.

I hope the Flight Replicas P-40N will get finished - it will be perfect, without doubt.

In the link I added later to my post above, Erik Shilling, a pilot with the AVG notes the use of the emergency hand pump for hydraulic failures.

[rwmarth]

Of course the early p-40 models were removed from front line service, but they didn't disappear. As found here http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/oth...al-7478-3.html a service bulletin for the P-40 shows a few instances of service work being ordered for P-40Bs and Cs. Certainly then, these early P-40s were not forgotten later in the war. As such, the mention of the emergency hand pump being in all P-40s except the L model cannot be disregarded based solely upon the date of the film's creation.

[Bomber_12th]

The A.V.G. even had P-40E's in very early spring of '42.

Regardless of what is said, I have yet to see a P-40B/C with the emergency system...I would love to be proved otherwise. Until then, I've seen the cockpits of three, and none of them have the emergency system.

BTW, the P-40B/C's were all named Tomahawks, and D's and E's were called Kittyhawks. It wasn't until the P-40F that the name Warhawk was applied to it and further models...hopefully some advertising hasn't skewed this too much.

[rwmarth]

hopefully some advertising hasn't skewed this too much.

Sounds just like propaganda... advertising has skewed things for a looooooong time concerning war

I'd have to imagine after a couple weeks in China, any P-40 looked quite a bit different from its original model what with parts shortages and constant modifications.

[Helldiver]

I guess you guys haven't seen the movie "Red Tails" They were flying P-40s in Italy. Well after the war had started.. Yeah there were some B-17Gs that managed to fly at the end of the war.
All I'm saying I want to see a jouneyman B-17F that carried the burden of the bombing.
Hey, I was around then and you kids have things screwed up beyond belief.

[Lewis-A2A]

Whoops, posted completely wrong link in my post.

heres the recent f/g thread on our forums; http://a2asimulations.com/forum/view...p?f=29&t=27501

[jojohnson9]

3,405 B-17Fs were built.
8,680 B-17Gs were built.
B-17Gs began arriving in England September, !943.
One of the first missions that included B-17Gs was the raid on Schweinfurt October 14, 1943 (Black Thursday).
4,750 B-17s were lost to combat, the large majority of these were B-17Gs.
These numbers are easily verifiable in historical documents and online.

My uncle, SSgt A.P. Johnson, was killed by flack in August, 1944 while flying in a raid over Germany in a B-17G.

[Bomber_12th]

3,405 B-17Fs were built.
8,680 B-17Gs were built.
B-17Gs began arriving in England September, !943.
One of the first missions that included B-17Gs was the raid on Schweinfurt October 14, 1943 (Black Thursday).
4,750 B-17s were lost to combat, the large majority of these were B-17Gs.
These numbers are easily verifiable in historical documents and online.

My uncle, SSgt A.P. Johnson, was killed by flack in August, 1944 while flying in a raid over Germany in a B-17G.

Excellent post, John, and likely the most sensible of the entire thread.

[Bone]

3,405 B-17Fs were built.
8,680 B-17Gs were built.
B-17Gs began arriving in England September, !943.
One of the first missions that included B-17Gs was the raid on Schweinfurt October 14, 1943 (Black Thursday).
4,750 B-17s were lost to combat, the large majority of these were B-17Gs.
These numbers are easily verifiable in historical documents and online.

My uncle, SSgt A.P. Johnson, was killed by flack in August, 1944 while flying in a raid over Germany in a B-17G.

Good facts. The US government kept a record of even the most mundane things during that war...pencils used, I think I remember seeing once. I've watched a lot of post mission debriefs of ETO bomber crews that were caught on film, and seen some of the documentation on losses and accidents. They got nitpicky with facts, and it seems to have gotten worse.

[strykerpsg]

3,405 B-17Fs were built.
8,680 B-17Gs were built.
B-17Gs began arriving in England September, !943.
One of the first missions that included B-17Gs was the raid on Schweinfurt October 14, 1943 (Black Thursday).
4,750 B-17s were lost to combat, the large majority of these were B-17Gs.
These numbers are easily verifiable in historical documents and online.

My uncle, SSgt A.P. Johnson, was killed by flack in August, 1944 while flying in a raid over Germany in a B-17G.

LOL, great find John. Spent my lunch googling the same stuff as it seemed some of the earlier posts were a bit off on the facts, and a similar thread existed in the A2A forum, or maybe AVSIM. Anyway, would also love to see an earlier Flying Fort, not necessarily an F, but maybe a C or D with different tail design.

Matt

[huub vink]

When you want a B-17F, just reinstall FS9......

[Shylock]

When you want a B-17F, just reinstall FS9......

And she works great in FSX with some minor tweaks!!!!

[Smashing Time]

OK, I have too say my piece here without trying to be antagonistic.
In late 1942 the Luftwaffe under the savvy leadership of Adolf Galland issued the following directive:

a. The attack from the rear against a four engined bomber formation promises little success and almost always brings big losses. If an attack from the rear must be carried through it should be done from above or below and the fuel tanks and engines should be aiming points.

b. the attack from the sides can be effective but requires thorough training and good gunnery.

c. The attack from the front, front high, front low, all with low speed was the most effective of all. Flying ability, good aiming and closing up to the shortest possible range are the prerequisites for success.

d. The exit can be succeed only in a sharp turn in the direction of the bomber formation single bomber. The most important factor is the angle of bank with which the fighter leaves the bomber formation.

e. Basically the strongest weapon is the masses and repeated attack by an entire fighter formation such cases, the defensive fire can be weakened and the bomber formation be broken up.

This was a preferred attack by many of the experienced Luftwaffe pilots.

With unacceptable losses at the time the AAF needed some changes.

The XB-40, a modified B-17F, laden with heavy armament conducted firepower test with the AAF as early as 1942. Later Douglas built the YB-40 with a chin turret and staggered waist gun positions Twelve of the YB-40's flew combat with the 92nd BG between May & August of 1943. The gunships with up to 17,000 rounds of amunition were to act as a defensive curtain in the formations. They were slow and gas guzzlers. Although the test determined the plane was not practical as a standalone version the defensive test showed advantage of a chin turret was clearly a proven winner and a new series, labeled the B-17G went into production. The Bendix nose turret mounted two .50-cal. guns that relieved the Bombardier from the burden of a single center of the nose gun and all its bulk and clutter. He could easily switch from his primary duties to the IP and move to the swing out yoke control. The staggered waist gunner positions were incorporated too. This was considered by the crews an improvement despite a loss of top speed. The first G's were showing up in Sept-Oct 1943 with the Eighth AF. For the nose cabin crew the extra fire power was at least psychologically re-assuring when facing 20mm canon fire heading at them.
After the P-47 started an attrition rate of experienced Luftwaffe fighter pilots and the introduction of the G model, Galland reluctantly reversed directives in September 1943 . Now the primary attack was from the rear with Ju-88s & Bf 110s flying high to the rear monitoring the formations a directing attack approaches.

Having been down this road before, to not acknowledge the facts pertaining introduction of the G model in the fall of 1943 needs to be addressed. This was, by far, a time before the horrific loss rate of B-17 crews in the European air war began to moderate. Even after a long six months of missions with the B-17-G, relentless attacks from all directions continued. March saw 100's of Fortress losses . The 6th of March, 23 were shot down in 30 minutes with 69 destroyed and 102 seriously damaged for the day. Well into the Spring of 1944 the losses mounted. On 13th of April, the 1st BD's B-17's were sent for a 3rd mission to Schweinfurt. That day saw the entire 384th BG (eight B-17 G's) were shot down in a single pass of German fighters! The 29th of April : 17 Fortress's from the 4th CBW were shot down in 20 minutes. A total of 63 Eighth AF heavies for the day. By the end of April, 361 Heavies of the Eighth were lost. That's 3,600 crews killed or captured in one month!.
So on into May - with 35 lost on the 12th, 33 on the 24th and 34 on the 29th. By then the first B-17 G's were war weary. My mothers first husband was killed in B-17 G that was shot up by Fw 190's and exploded in the air near Paris in Feb 1944.
Sustained losses to flak were throughout the conflict into 1945.
It was not until the oil refineries and factories deep into the heart of Germany were destroyed 1944 that you could say the war was on its way to be won. The Luftwaffe even though greatly diminished continued to inflick periodic heavy losses.

"The Gs came out by the time the work had been done."

"I go back to, "the F won the war". All the Gs were left over because the fight had gone out of the Germans"

"Yeah there were some B-17Gs that managed to fly at the end of the war.
All I'm saying I want to see a jouneyman B-17F that carried the burden of the bombing.
Hey, I was around then and you kids have things screwed up beyond belief."

Veteran or not, to say that the B-17 G came in when it was a 'cake-walk' at the time is an insult to the thousands of brave airmen who died in from 1944 onwards.

Rick Spork

References:
B-17 Flying Fortess Units of the Eighth Air force
Pts I & 2
Martin Bowen
Osprey Publishing 2000 & 2002

Weapons of the Eighth Airforce
Frederick A. Johnsonson
MBI Publishing 2003

Jagwaffe Volume Five Section 1
Defending The Reich
Robert Forsyth & Eddie Creek
Ian Allan Publishing 2004

B-17's Over Berlin
Personal Stories from the 95th Bomb Group [H]
Ian L. Hawkins
Brassey's 1990

Oral Histories from
The 95th BG reunions 2003 -2005

[wombat666]

Getting back to the aircraft in question and flight sims, I would be highly impressed by a C/D version.
Commercially it should be a good prospect, aside from USAAC 'early Pacific War' and peacetime versions, the RAF flew pioneering high altitude [and highly unsuccessful] operations before the US entered the war, these aircraft eventually being passed on to Coastal Command, while IIRC the USAAC operated a number of them on similar missions in the Canal Zone and Southern Atlantic.
Nice 'International' collection of colour schemes and ops choices perhaps.
Again IMHO, the RAF dark earth/light earth/deep sky blue scheme is the most attractive B17 of the entire litter.
Not entirely sure but I believe several pioneered the RAF counter measures ops wearing o/a black as well.

[stiz]

Again IMHO, the RAF dark earth/light earth/deep sky blue scheme is the most attractive B17 of the entire litter.
Not entirely sure but I believe several pioneered the RAF counter measures ops wearing o/a black as well.

have to say, i prefer the costal command paints meself

All I'm saying I want to see a jouneyman B-17F that carried the burden of the bombing.

I'd personaly like to see a wellington, stirling, halifax, blehmin, lancaster .. you know, the bombers that were carrying the burden of the bombing for years before 1941. You knock the G version for being late to the party, yet your really quick at fogetting some countries had been at war nigh on 3 years before 1941. And what about the liberator? didnt that drop more tonnage than the B17 ever did?

[Smashing Time]

I'd personaly like to see a wellington, stirling, halifax, blehmin, lancaster .. you know, the bombers that were carrying the burden of the bombing for years before 1941. You knock the G version for being late to the party, yet your really quick at fogetting some countries had been at war nigh on 3 years before 1941. And what about the liberator? didnt that drop more tonnage than the B17 ever did?

The Fortress dropped 640,036 U.S. tons of bombs on European targets during the war years. This compares to 452,508 U.S. tons for the B-24 Liberator and 463,544 tons dropped by all other aircraft.
I don't how that compares to worldwide.
Records, although not official due to multiple gunner claims per enemy planes destroyed, were about twenty three per thousand sorties as compared to eleven by Liberators, eleven by U.S. fighters
and three by all U.S. light and medium bombers. I believe this includes the Mediterranean operations.
When the war in Europe terminated, the Lancasters contribution was about two thirds of the total tonnage of bombs dropped by the R.A.F. from the beginning of 1942, the actual figure being 608,615 tons. The Halifax 227,610 tons.
William Green
Famous Bombers of the Second World War