wow...sad news here...Nemeth Design out of business

[wombat666]

Total rubbish, I assume this was directed at vstudios and with the above statement, do you condone Piracy ?
and yes my above comments was directed at you.

Not very professional sport.
Never 'assume' anything and do keep your remarks polite.

This is not a thread for bashing ANY developer nor is it one for a Developer to bash members.
Keep it up and I will lock it.

[Deano]

That's very odd indeed, the bashing started before I joined in ?

What got my goat up was when a member thought it prudent to insult and to call another developer dumb !

you want to ban me for defending them, then do so. I find it odd to be singled out.

Not very professional sport.
Never 'assume' anything and do keep your remarks polite.

This is not a thread for bashing ANY developer nor is it one for a Developer to bash members.
Keep it up and I will lock it.

[jojohnson9]

Spitting there dummy out = being mardy/childish/im not playing anymore kind of attitude.

Thanks, Deano.

[Deano]

no problem jo :ernae:

Thanks, Deano.

[Warrant]

Sorry to hear an excellent designer/developer like ND going into trouble due to piracy. I for one, admire their high quality products since FS9 (their great Hind and Hip helo's were far ahead of their time in the sim-world). Currently i'm enjoying their FSX Huey-line.

The only anti-piracy suggestion i can make to perhaps reduce the number of people who download the hacked stuff is: Developers, ussue demo-versions first (either limited in capability, or the full package with time limitation (like Abacus does)).

At least a percentage of the downloaders will have the oppurtunity to play around first and then decide to actually pay for the software once satisfied.

I hope stuff will be solved and ND will continue their business.

[wombat666]

insulting?
Maybe

blunt?
Yes

fact of life?
Yes

Will the guy who posted the torrent remove it after reading or hearing about it ?
No

Will people stop downloading it?
No

will it change a thing?
No
as mick said whos been in this game for a while " it won't change a thing, those carrying out such actions really don't give a damn and its no great loss to them if any developer folds, they will just steal from another or in the worse case scenario, go play something else, chances are most are not what I can pure aviation sim enthusiasts anyway, spongers with a thin grasp of what we're (the real community) really all about, an idle interest in the sim and its community and onward to the next hot thing"

1 thing i will give them credit for, theyre not as dumb as another developer who during their dummy spit posted the link to the torrent and left it there for a few days

Thats has to be the single-est dumbest thing ive seen when it came to protesting about piracy

The word you should be using here Matt is 'Naive', not 'Dumb'.

[Sieggie]

No, It was not directed at VS. Updates are slow in coming from all developers. As stated, no income is created from an update so dev's put most of their resources toward new development. I was stating my opinion, not making any accusation.

[Deano]

Please accept my apology. I guess I was in the heat of the battle.

if its any consolation how wrong I was, I'll sort you out a free copy of the Avenger

No, It was not directed at VS. Updates are slow in coming from all developers. As stated, no income is created from an update so dev's put most of their resources toward new development. I was stating my opinion, not making any accusation.

[skyhawka4m]

You know what...now I'm sorry I posted this. Frankly its upsetting that someone can't post something, then follow up with a message of support to only be followed by this trash. Gentleman we are all better than this. Maybe if we all talked about a solution instead of throwing eah under the bus, stabbing with knives, or insulting each other. We all live in a time when this should be a release from our everyday reality and frankly its starting to remind me of what I try to get asway from every day.


Let's work together to find a solution or just keep our mouths shut.


Deano good on you with offfering the free plane to the other gent. Now, I will buy the Avenger, even if it comes with less paints as a download.

[AndyG43]

OK, I was going to steer clear of this thread, but need to add my two pennorth after all.

Sieggie has a point about the updates, and it builds on comments made by Michael & others. Addons are now becoming increasingly expensive, so I am becoming increasingly choosy about what I spend my limited funds on; what I don't do is scour the torrent sites, and I don't condone piracy (before anybody starts pointing fingers) - but the other thing I won't do is pay to become a beta tester, help iron out the bugs and then wait for the patches to come along.

If I am spending my hard earned I want a product I know will work, and one that "floats my boat"; sadly, while I have a number of previous Nemeth choppers still flying in FS2004, it means I won't be buying the Agusta - it's what Michael meant when he was talking about niche markets. It did mean that I got the Razbam TA-7 (from Simmarket), but only when I knew the bugs were ironed out; and I'll likely be picking up the Wilco Harrier/Shar at some point soon, now that it is a more mature product. There has been a thread recently about a long awaited VC in a particular airlifter - reading between the lines on that thread there are still improvements to come at some unspecified point in the future, so it's still a beta as far as I'm concerned.

I can appreciate this is a tricky subject, so I don't want to inflame it. We've had enough of that here recently. But I just wanted to point out, as a consumer, that this is a different market now to the one I enjoyed when I entered the hobby, even leaving aside the piracy issues.

[Shane Olguin]

Dummy spitting... clearly something in the Commonwealth dictionary. I have never heard such a term!

[AndyG43]

Dummy spitting... clearly something in the Commonwealth dictionary. I have never heard such a term!

I thought that; presumably an Antipodean term, not one I'd come across before. The phrase we use here is "throwing his toys out of the pram" - not that I'm saying that's what happened on this occasion, just mentioning it for clarification.

[ryanbatc]

That sucks... I just spent $35 on their A109 last week... it really needs a fde update... I guess that won't happen... piracy happens you can't stop it, I don't see why they've only discovered this now.

[michael davies]

The products don't surface on torrents from thin air, they actually come from a purchase of a customer. whether shared with a friend or uploaded by themselves.

So isn't the problem of piracy derived from the paying customer ?

Quite so, but that's only half of the equation, the point I was succinctly trying to make and I admit it was perhaps a little to subtle, is this. Torrents will always be there, that one person will always buy and then torrent, he has always been there, he will always be there, its a fact you cannot change, but he is not the full problem, he is only half of the problem, the other half of the problem are the people who download.

That's the figure I suspect is on the rise for what ever reason, there is a growing number of people who are becoming less resistant, who have less self control, who are prepared to take the risk.

There is a behavioural model that can be applied in some context here (those not interested can skip this boring bit), its ins and outs are not really required here, but basically it works on the principle of any group falling into three broad categories. Those that constantly under perform/purposefully do wrong (15%), those that do average and generally what's right (75%) and those that exceed (10%), the problem is that as a manager or someone who can have an effect on the situation, and in this context I'm talking commercial developers, every one tends to concentrate on the low (15%) i.e. the problem people, in fact 75% of their energy is spent trying to sort them out, which results in the main body of people (75%) being neglected. The end result is that the lowest 15% drags the rest down, no matter how much energy you put into it. Recent research has shown that where those businesses exert more energy into the 75% mass have better results, they find that their exceed level rises from 10% to 20% and their lowest sector diminishes as low as 5%, in other words you use your best to drag the worst up the scale.

In simple terms, developers need to concentrate on their bread and butter customers, make them feel happy, they are the ones coming back time and again, the more of those customers they get/ retain, the less will/may migrate to shallow end of the pond.

You cannot stop the original torrent up loaders, all you can do is reduce the number that migrate to collecting that torrent.

Sadly though, Matt is right, things will never change, the flight sim community is not cohesive enough, yet, to accomplish very much in reducing this problem.

Best

Michael

[peter12213]

All I have to say is this is a real shame, not only Nemeth but also for Icarus too!

[fsafranek]

The word you should be using here Matt is 'Naive', not 'Dumb'.

Exactly my thought as well.
:ernae:

[Lateral-G]

Dummy spitting... clearly something in the Commonwealth dictionary. I have never heard such a term!

I had to look that one up too.....

http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...Spit+the+Dummy

Australian Term: To indulge in a sudden display of anger or frustration; to lose one’s temper. The phrase is usually used of an adult, and the implication is that the outburst is childish, like a baby spitting out its dummy in a tantrum and refusing to be pacified. (Dummy is a pacifier)

[MarkH]

Maybe the truth is that software isn't a marketable commodity. It has no intrinsic value because it can be infinitely duplicated at no cost. So the developer needs to retain something that we, the customer, need and will keep on needing. The software must be useless without it, and we mustn't be able to cheat in getting it. That's what they sell, not the software.

Question is, what can they sell?

[Shylock]

Wow this sucks to hear. I loved their products. So much so when their Huey first came out I bought but I did not have the PC that could come close to handling it. Fast forward to today and I bought it again when I built my new rig simply because it was my favorite helo which they did a fine job replicating it.

Their customer service was good and really hope they can put something together. Maybe they could get together with those that made it harder to pirate things. Was really hoping for their CH-47 Chinook. Oh well.

[Sieggie]

Please accept my apology. I guess I was in the heat of the battle.

if its any consolation how wrong I was, I'll sort you out a free copy of the Avenger

I accept your apology and understand your frustration. I was not looking for a free plane as that will make you cash flow worse :0

I do have the SBD from VS direct and the F6F and F8F from the Christmas sale. I like birds I can crash onto decks

Maybe next big sale I will get the F9F as I have figured out how to place aircraft on the AI carrier using waypoints to place the carrier and accompanying imaginary elevated airports to place the plane on the deck. Its a little strange but works most of the time.

Thanks,

Dave

[fsafranek]

One of the things that Michael says about spongers who wouldn't buy it is incorrect. Sales of the 109 fell off drastically two days after it went into the wild. This says to me that people who were planning on buying it, saw it in the wild and went for it.

Having been in this for a long long time I agree with what Michael said. But there is some truth in what you describe as well Colin. By that I mean it sounds like you're saying folks who in better economic times perhaps might have bought it outright opted for a less expensive route. Not to defend that -- having worked for a developer for over 10 years now I absolutely hate piracy -- but because these are FSX models with all the possible (whether necessary or not) bells and whistles included we are no longer really in the economy FS add-on industry. People want the product. But the product has been developed to the point where it is priced out of reach to those who used to be able to support the industry.

Anyway... The Talon will be released soon and we hope that you all will not put it up on the torrents quite so soon. I do not wish to go out of business.

I hope that it is not us who do that.
:ernae:

[michael davies]

Having been in this for a long long time I agree with what Michael said. But there is some truth in what you describe as well Colin. By that I mean it sounds like you're saying folks who in better economic times perhaps might have bought it outright opted for a less expensive route. Not to defend that -- having worked for a developer for over 10 years now I absolutely hate piracy -- but because these are FSX models with all the possible (whether necessary or not) bells and whistles included we are no longer really in the economy FS add-on industry. People want the product. But the product has been developed to the point where it is priced out of reach to those who used to be able to support the industry.

I hope that it is not us who do that.
:ernae:

Valid point, the consumer has driven up the quality stakes, thus prices have to rise accordingly, thus the product becomes even further out of reach of Joe average, thus more people opt for the torrent route, thus the developer who listened to what the customer wants and pushed the quality higher ended up bankrupt...go figure LOL.

Best

Michael

[AndyG43]

Valid point, the consumer has driven up the quality stakes, thus prices have to rise accordingly, thus the product becomes even further out of reach of Joe average, thus more people opt for the torrent route, thus the developer who listened to what the customer wants and pushed the quality higher ended up bankrupt...go figure LOL.

Best

Michael

Again, not necessarily as simple as that. Something occured to me on my journey home this evening, and Frank has alluded to it - when FSX came along it was possible for developers to put a lot more detail into a product than they could into something for FS9 (well, at least that was the orthodox view, but Bill has disproved that now) so in went "the bells & whistles" & up went the price. At the same time, rather than create versions for two different sims, many developers turned their backs on FS9 and nailed their colours firmly to the FSX mast; based on the number of downloads of the recent PAD Casa 295 on Flightsim (2200 for FSX, 1400 for FS9) I'd estimate that they cut their potential market by at least 40%.

Many of us still don't have PC's that can run FSX to it's fullest extent (most of my flying is still done in FS9, and most of my purchases are still for that sim) - I finally reinstalled FSX because I wanted to fly Rob Richardson's superb freeware classic British stuff. To date I have purchased very little for FSX, because I really still can't run a lot of it; all the reviews I've read indicate, for example, that the Aerosoft F-16 would turn my PC into a slideshow - why do I need to do that when I have an FS9 installation loaded with every enhancement imaginable that I can run with the sliders full to the right? As I mentioned earlier, I bought the Razbam TA-7, but only after a fair bit of dithering; several reasons for buying it - I like the A-7, this is the only twin seater available & I LIKE the guys at Razbam (they've always been helpful in the past when I needed it) so wanted to support them. But I'm disappointed that it's only for FSX, if there had been an FS9 version I would probably have bought it a whole lot earlier; and I don't know if I can justify buying the other A-7s.

So, leaving the piracy issue aside (as Michael has said, most of those guys wouldn't have bought anyway) is the problem partially one of mistaking the market? Did the consumer demand more, or did the developer raise the expectations themselves; and how does it make economic sense to turn your back on 40-50% of your potential market? We're surely a niche hobby anyway; so the poor guys at Nemeth (for who I have the greatest sympathy) have found themselves a niche of a niche of a niche.

One final comment on the piracy issue. Yes, something needs to be done, but I don't envy you designers & developers as you walk such a thin tightrope; an overly draconian approach to your customers will alienate them, I have several companies who I will no longer touch with a bargepole, however good their product is, simply down to the way they have handled themselves in the past and the accusations they made. I'd like to think that the vast majority of the people on this forum are essentially honest & would not go anywhere near a pirated product; so I don't particularly appreciate it when blanket accusations are made, something that has become all too frequent recently.

[lazarus]

I should steer clear as well, but...And I do not condone piracy-
A few years back, one of the gurus at Sun snorted publicly, words to the effect-'Computer security? give your head a shake. there is no such thing.'
The software architechture , and operational requirements of the internet, the multitude of platforms and O/S's, that have to 'talk' to one another, pretty much preclude real, hack proof security. Short of implementing a stalinesque regime of intrusive electronic surveilance, and draconian reporting measures ( which is already built into the system, I suppose) , the fact that a substantial percentage of humans are dishonest, and the sad fact that our civilization rewards dishonesty and immorality- we need look no further than our collective leadership castes for proof of that; there cannnot be any such thing as real internet/computer security. I cringed at the whole idea of on-line banking, creditcard use, and E-commerce as it is fundamentaly impossible to secure anything when humans are involved. Even going to exclusivley over the counter disc only sales is no guarantee of leak-proof security; though I would stipulate that by registering the disc to one owner, with a tracable serial, could mitigate some of the worst of the piracy. And last, sadly, the dollar value of the industry ( flight simmulation addons) is below the threshold at which the 'authorities' will vigorously prosecute offenders. A failing of our civilization is the fact that most 'property' and 'fiscal' crime statutes are not enforced untill a sufficiant number of wealthy citizens are affected- you may steal, just not from the elite, or the state.
My condolances to Nemeth- I hope they can come back.

[OleBoy]

Holy cow, last I spoke with Nemeth people I mentioned doing some repaints for them on their models. Return correspondence sounded good. I don't know what to say. I do, but my choice of words surely are not allowed.