OT 303 SMLE

[GunnyG]

.... It would be a waste to just vacate such a nice thread like this (with all those nice images, stories and information), just to be considerate to nations that have controversity with gun's (though living in such a nation, i differentiate from such a point of view).
Though i can understand peoples aversion to gun's, i truly believe it is not the gun that kills or harms people; it is the mankind that irresponsibly operates the gun, that is harmfull.

There is only one time when we need PC. That is when we are looking for the USB ports to plug our HOTAS controllers in to.

[N2056]

This thread could remain here, or it could be moved, or worse depending on the direction the responders decide they want it to go. Without mutual respect for each others opinion it's not going to fare well.

[huub vink]

Rene, thanks for your input. As I personally have the feeling there has been more than enough discussion between staff and other members here lately, I made this a personal request and therefore I do not intent to close it or to move it.

What I ask for is some understanding. There are several members, most likely a minority, who have problems with guns. Personally I don't really have problems with guns, but I just don't think this is the appropriate place to post.

Therefore I just made a request and I hope future threads on this topic will be posted in another forum. Not because it is a rule, but just out of respect for the feelings of others.

Cheers,
Huub

[Ivan]

The big question again is "Can we move this thread to a location that does not offend?"

Huub Vink,
I am a gun enthusiast but am hesitant to continue this discussion because of your comments. As others have stated, there has been a lively discussion on this topic and it would be a shame to just abandon it with all of the posts and images that are already here.

Obligatory gun commentary:
Please observe the rear sight guards on Frankenstein. The right side isn't curved outward. I believe this was intended to have room for the windage adjustment rear sight but I had a windage adjustable sight installed at one point and although there wasn't a LOT of room, there was enough for some adjustments.

- Ivan.

[SpaceWeevil]

There is only one time when we need PC. That is when we are looking for the USB ports to plug our HOTAS controllers in to.

I'd buy that, if only the 'Tell it like it is!!' crew were a bit more relaxed when people have a go at THEIR sacred cows - but quite often 'free speech' only seems to flow one way.

Anyways, just off to post about gun control on Whopping Great Weapons.com - I'll let you know how I get on.

[MHAircraft]

I am a gun owner, too, but out of respect to the admin, I am not going to post photos of my Mausers and other stuff. However, I have to ask:

Are we still allowed to post screenshots of FS aircraft that show guns or other weapons?

[Moparmike]

I moved it down to the Other Hobbies forum. We've got a few other shooting threads hiding in here somewhere, another one is welcome.
Feel free to post your gun pics in here if you so wish...or any other hobbies you've got a hankering to share.

Those are some nice Enfields I see.

[Moparmike]

Are we still allowed to post screenshots of FS aircraft that show guns or other weapons?

Hmm...lemme see...those would be FS related so...ummm...yep.
Otherwise post em up down here.

Lets see those Mausers. A sure way to get those SMLE guys good and riled up. :ernae:

[Ivan]

How about German fighters with Swastikas on the tail?
(Yeah, I'm a trouble maker.)

- Ivan.

[huub vink]

How about German fighters with Swastikas on the tail?
(Yeah, I'm a trouble maker.)

- Ivan.

Believe it or not, but this topic has already been dicussed in the past.

German law does not allow to use this symbol out historical context. As we are an American based international forum, we consider German law not applicable here.

Some people may consider the use of the Nazi symbol offending, however we only use the symbol in a historical context and definitely do not support the ideas of the former Nazi. Therfore the display is regarded acceptable.

Cheers,
Huub

[Ivan]

I have built a couple WW2 German aircraft for CFS. I wonder if anyone from Germany has downloaded and what they do about the evil Swastika on the tail.... I put the emblem there because the originals had it.

- Ivan.

[huub vink]

That's what I meant with "in historical context", we try to make them "look as real as possible" which shouldn't be a problem.

A Germany based company like Classics hangar is not allowed to sell their product with the swastika included. For those who want it there is a unofficial freeware modification available via an Italian server. In Sturmovik IL2 the German aircraft don't have a swastika nor do the Finnish aircraft have the correct national marking (which was a swastika as well in that period). There are freeware modification available.

Although I have any proof, I'm convinced these free mods are used in Germany as well. However I can fully understand the German authorities, as their point of view is official. And will be looked at by many with a microscope!

Cheers,
huub

[Ivan]

Thanks for the details, Huub Vink. I still think this is silly. We in the USA do similar things. I noticed that my kids aren't talking about "slaves" before the Civil War. They now refer to "enslaved people" instead.

BTW, did anyone noticed the very early cocking piece on Warrant's rifle? Posting is toward the bottom of this page.

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforum...303-SMLE/page3

- Ivan.

[wombat666]

As in the cylindrical bolt head?
Quite an old piece that.
Of course, there are so many variations on the SMLE theme it may well a pre-WW.I issue refurbished in a few other areas and returned to service.

[wallyboard]

Thanks for the details, Huub Vink. I still think this is silly. We in the USA do similar things. I noticed that my kids aren't talking about "slaves" before the Civil War. They now refer to "enslaved people" instead.

BTW, did anyone noticed the very early cocking piece on Warrant's rifle? Posting is toward the bottom of this page.

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforum...303-SMLE/page3

- Ivan.

My Mk III is like that, stamped 1916.

Cheers
Larry

[Warrant]

Today i went shooting at the base gun-range with my future rifle: a No4 Mk1 with scope.
What a joy! The impacts were a bit low but nicely grouped after all. Next time some adjustment on the scope. Nice thing was that other LE No4 Mk1 owners were shooting simultaniously so we could share experiences/knowledge.

What a weapon!

Some more months to wait before my gun permit gets granted (you have to do a year of shooting (18 sessions at least) and 1 year of membership before you get your first licence in my country).
Lucky the gun club owns the weapon i desire, and i can take it over once the permit gets through.

What are comparison prices for .303 factory ammo in your countries?

[wallyboard]

Haven't priced 303 ammo in Canada for a few years, but I reckon it's around $30 Cdn for a box of 20. My last box was about $25.
Larry

[Ivan]

Time to go load your own ammunition. I just got home from a gun show. At the show I saw a sporterized No.1 Mk.III* dated 1914 but with the early round cocking piece. The barrel was in poor condition and there were stamps all over the place around the chamber area. The bolt and receiver matched and the asking price was $100.

After the show, I went to a nearby shop and saw a No.4 MK.I* (a Longbranch gun) with the rear sight replaced with a scope mount. It had a Number 1 bolt head and the price which I thought wa a bit high was $440. The shop operator asked me what I thought about the price since he didn't know much about military guns and I told him the price a bit high. The gun was on consignment, so he told me he would inform the rifle's owner and ask about the missing rear sight.

I brought a couple pistols to the range and thought I would do some shooting this afternoon but turns out it was wrong kind of ammunition for the guns I had.....

- Ivan.

[norab]

If you are going to reload, I would respectfully suggest that you slug your barrel first. The nominal diameter is .311 inch. I have slugged over 20 different SMLE barrels on various Marks and Numbers from all the different arsenals and except for an Isaphore refit in 7.62 NATO which was exactly .308 inch per specs for that caliber have never found a barrel that was the correct bore diameter. They have ranged from a low of .307 to a high of .317. If you slug your barrel and get the diameter for it, you may significantly improve accuracy by using a bullet that more closely matches it's diameter rather than automatically using a .311 bullet

I would also suggest checking it's headspace as this is often pretty sloppy also, but there are different lengh bolt heads available that can be used to improve it if it's too great.

Please don't think I'm trying to slam SMLE's, they are sturdy rifles and about the fastest bolt actions to operate because they cock on the bolt closing stroke rather than when you open the bolt like most bolt actions. These are simply the effects caused by hurried wartime mass production. These are just a few suggestions based on my experiences with many Enfields. I share them solely to make shooting these rifles more accurate, and more enjoyable.

[Ivan]

Hi Norab,
I am kind of curious: What were the calibers for the guns you slugged? I would not be terribly surprised to see a .308 caliber L42 that slugged to .307 inch groove diameter, but I WOULD be surprised to find a nominal .303 caliber gun that slugged that low.

Just as a matter of note to all of us here, we should be a bit careful about terminology. The SMLE (Short, Magazine, Lee-Enfield) was the correct name for guns before the Great War. Around the Great War, the great renaming took place and the SMLE became the Rifle Number 1 Mk.III and ones that did not have the magazine cutoff became the No.1 Mk.III*. I believe the Pattern 14 became a Rifle Number 3. The Number 4 was a long ways off in the future.

Near as I can tell, the SMLE or No.1s in any of their variations never had replaceable bolt heads for head space adjustment. This is not to say that you can't find a bolt head that will adjust headspace tighter. You just can't do it predictably. Thread timing is also unpredictable. In building Frankenstein as described earlier, I had sufficient parts to find a bolt head that was about 180 degrees off time to a particular bolt body I had. I also got lucky that one nice looking bolt head timed and headspaced PERFECTLY to a new Lithgow bolt body, barrel, and receiver I was working on. It was really a matter of rolling the dice enough times by having enough parts to select from.

These guns SMLE and No.1 Mk.III and Mk.III* are also NOT terribly sturdy actions. They are NOT suitable for .308 Winchester or 7.62 NATO. The Ishapore Number 2 or 2A1 (designation depends on the rear sight installation) may have the same contour but different metallurgy and ARE sufficiently strong for 7.62 NATO. The Ishapore 7.62 NATO guns were only ever issued as reserve guns until sufficient numbers of FN FAL types were available.

Rifle No.4 Mk.I, Mk.I*, and Mk.II MAY be sufficiently strong. The British checked the actions before rebuilding to 7.62 NATO. The difference between a Mk.I and Mk.I* is that the Mk.I* has a cutout in the front of the right receiver rail instead of a spring loaded tab that blocks the opening at the REAR of the receiver rail that allows the bolt head to be rotated up to remove the bolt. The Mk.II has the trigger attached to the body (receiver) of the gun. This was to prevent dimensional changes in the wood from affecting trigger pull. The earlier guns had the trigger attached to the trigger guard which was clamped on by screw pressure.

Rifle No.4 (and presumably No.5 Jungle Carbines) had replaceable bolt heads numbered 0,1,2,3 which were progressively longer. Thus in a gun with headspace that is slightly too long, you can switch to a higher number bolt head and reduce headspace. Incidentally, it is very rare to find a military .303 British gun that headspaces correctly according to SAAMI specifications. Go to NoGo gauges only differ by about 2 thousandths of an inch. If anyone cares, I can go find my gauges to confirm my memory.

For those of you who may be checking out 7.62 NATO guns, keep in mind that 7.62 NATO ISN'T .308 Winchester. The ammunition spec is pretty close, but the chamber radial dimensions are quite different. The headspace specs also have a greater tolerance between OK and BAD. IMHO, .308 Winchester headspace gauges CAN be used to ballpark test a 7.62 NATO gun to some extent. A 7.62 gun should chamber a .308 Go gauge. A 7.62 gun MAY chamber a .308 NoGo and still be in spec. If a 7.62 gun chambers a .308 Field (Field Reject) gauge, it is equivalent (or very close) to chambering a 7.62 NoGo which means it is out of spec.

In reloading for the .303 British, I highly recommend neck sizing EVEN IF your gun has proper headspace. Because the .303 British doesn't heaspace on the case shoulder, the typical military chamber has a shoulder VERY FAR FORWARD of that of the cartridge case. Thus, if you full length size, the case shoulder gets blown forward with each firing and will separate after a few firings. If you use range pickup brass or brass from other than the gun you are reloading for, Full length size for the first reload and never after. For this reason, it is a good idea to not interchange brass between different .303s if you have more than one. My personal opinion is that the Lee Collet dies are the most cost effective neck sizing dies around. I use them in lots of different calibers.

As usual when giving this kind of advice, Your Mileage May Vary and I take NO RESPONSIBILITY if you should decide to take the advice of some unknown person on the Internet and possibly blow yourself up.

Pardon me for being so long winded.
- Ivan.

[norab]

except for the Isaphore, all of them were .303, according to my notes the .307 was a Fazakerly.
Also for the No. 4's you can switch butt stocks (3 different lengths, S, M, L) to potentionally improve length of pull. All the No.5's (jungle Carbines) were fitted with the short butt stock with the rubber pad and still kick like mules compared to a normal Enfeld

[Ivan]

A .303 British made by Fazakerly that has only .307 GROOVE diameter is an VERY unusual beast. Any idea how that happened, because that would be WAY out of spec. Is there a possibility that you measured a 5 groove slug wrong? Perhaps there was a rust ring that swaged the slug down too far?

There was a fellow in Falls Church, Virginia that had special tools to measure slugs with odd number grooves and did it only for the cost of shipping.

- Ivan.

[norab]

sorry for the delay, I answered yesterday but it is lost in cyberspace somewhere. according to my notes the bore showed evidence of using corrosive promers but nothing else visually evident. most of the bore sizes I measured were in the .312-.313 range, had one at .315 and that way out .317 ( Lithgow) One was a #4 Savage that ran .310 that would shoot better than a miltary rifle should. The .307 I shot with .30-30 bullets that were .307 diameter and it did fine. A friend had a #4 with grossly excessive headspace even with the longest bolt head so he had a gunsmith make up a tempered steel washer to go between the bolt head and bolt body that closed it up to acceptable limits.
Lest anyone is freaking out over this, if you shoot factory ammuniton only once and don't reload it's all sort of academic but I've never been that rich

These events were nearly 35 years ago and Enfield were dirt cheap. I think the worst guns held in reserve stocks were released for sale first so that may explain a lot of it.

[Ivan]

Hi Norab,

We ARE talking about GROOVE diameter, right? Did you ever try to shoot the .303 that had a .307 groove diameter? Did it explode?

I know the No.4 Lee Enfield reasonably well. I can't see how a tempered washer would help things much at all. The bolt head is screwed into the bolt body using fairly fine threads. The thrust against the bolt is held by these threads. When screwing in the bolt head, generally it will rotate about 5 degrees or so further than perfect alignment with the Right / Lower Lug. I can't see how a washer will help since it is the threads are unchanged. Either you are lined up or you are back some multiple of the thread pitch. Perhaps the washer was put on the bolt face?

BTW, If a gun has excessive headspace, one method of using it with little danger is to shim the front of the rim to hold the case head against the bolt face. When fired, the case should blow out to fit the chamber (fire forming). If the shell is neck sized only, the shoulder is not bumped back and it now headspaces on the case shoulder. The only problem is that if headspace is long, there is a good chance the case is sitting on the bottom of the wider area of the chamber and isn't aligned well with the chamber.

- Ivan.

[norab]

yes indeed, groove diameter. as I mentioned above we used .307 diameter bullets originally designed for the .30-30. The first Enfield we picked up was so sloppy ( not the .307)that after that we checked headspace and slugged every one before we ever put a factory loaded round downrange out of it. We were out to obtain the best accuracy we could out of each one so we sometimes used teflon wrapped cast bullets to get better matches with the oversize bores. We weren't hunting we were out to wring out the most accuracy we could and MV or leathality were not considerations for us. That two piece stock and the system of trigger mounting always made it a challenge. In general, accuracy was much easier to obtain with a 98 Mauser, 03 Springfield, or #3/ M-1917