Question: helping newbies

[jp]

A thought just occured to me whilst browsing through payware aircraft. I am wondering if we should start a "Payware to Avoid" thread. This would be a thread in which people can advise you on what not to get, and reasons why. And we can complain/whine while saving others the trouble of wasting money. Just a thought.

[Roger]

Opinions vary as to what is good value and what isn't. Any thread denigrating a developer's work would be subjective and would be locked or removed by staff. Threads announcing new releases that aren't up to par will attract little interest and so will give an indication to newbies as to the quality of the product. Occasionally a product is so bad that some constructive comment will be allowable.
As staff we have to try to be impartial without misleading our members.

[Meshman]

What scares me the most about your posting is the thought that you might be serious in your message and not kidding.

So a thread is started and people all get to "complain/whine", all for the good of the community, I guess? What happens if it falls to page two of the forum, or page three, or page six? Do you want to serve as the volunteer "bump-er" of the thread. Or maybe people could just use the search button to locate the "complain/whine" thread?

As a past and future payware developer, I feel there are enough opportunities for people looking to spend their money on payware products to go and find relevant information about a product. My personal opinion is that there does not need to be a podium for those who only wish to "complain/whine". Your words are quoted, not mine.

[falcon409]

JP, I'm sure your suggestion was made innocently enough and with good intentions, but that sort of thing happens often enough without setting up a thread to make it "Official", lol. I can tell you that nothing good would ever come from such a thread, irregardless of how it might start off. . . .to paraphrase "Goose" in Top Gun. . ."the list (of locked threads) is long and distinguished".:salute:

[paulb]

Well, I can well understand the motivation for starting this thread. I guess that many of us have experienced emotions varying from "Wow " to " Bummer " after buying payware.

However, as Roger said, such threads tend to end up getting locked as the thread degenerates into 'bashing the developer' .

One option might be to introduce a 'Payware reviews' sub forum here. Contributors could post a brief review of any payware software that they have purchased - good or bad. I recognise that it would still be subject to personal preferences and 'standards' but it could be helpful to new purchasers. I am not convinced that it would work, but there are enough 'grown up' people here - whose opinions are worthwhile - to warrant consideration.

Just a thought.......................

[SADT]

One option might be to introduce a 'Payware reviews' sub forum here. Contributors could post a brief review of any payware software that they have purchased - good or bad. I recognise that it would still be subject to personal preferences and 'standards' but it could be helpful to new purchasers. I am not convinced that it would work, but there are enough 'grown up' people here - whose opinions are worthwhile - to warrant consideration.

Just a thought.......................

Great idea Paul!

[Kiwikat]

One option might be to introduce a 'Payware reviews' sub forum here. Contributors could post a brief review of any payware software that they have purchased - good or bad. I recognise that it would still be subject to personal preferences and 'standards' but it could be helpful to new purchasers. I am not convinced that it would work, but there are enough 'grown up' people here - whose opinions are worthwhile - to warrant consideration.

Just a thought.......................

I've been wanting this for a long time.

However there are a lot of developers that visit here. They may or may not like what we have to say about the products.

[jp]

OK, yes, when i said "whine/ complain" I was meaning that in a joking manner. HOWEVER, as consumers it is YOUR RIGHT to be correctly informed on the products available on the market. I think that 1) constructive criticism never hurt anyone, and 2) it's not fair to people who don't know, for them to go out and blow their hard earned money on products that are subpar. Well what's your definition of subpar? My definition of subpar is poorly made products that are worse than some freeware. Now I will refrain from naming names, but there are more models out there than you would probably expect that cost 30 or so dollars that are not as good as mid level freeware. I understand that this has the potential to be ugly. But I don't understand why users could not flag offensive posts for removal... I admired the recent thread that alerted many prospective buyers to the fact that the FCS Sunderland was not worth the money until a fix comes about. I know that if I get ripped off, I'm gonna be mad. Which is why you need as many sources to check before you make a decision. This would only add an extra resource for people to check. The reason that I didn't make a thread, is that I wanted to check out and gauge opinion, and interest, as well as to get ideas about how to do it right. Also I felt that potential buyers could get more honest opinions from people who are not true "reviewers". Not that they won't be biased, as all reviews are. If you feel like I am off base, feel free to correct me. However I will say that those who come in without being open-minded and just want to make a stink, you will be ignored. I'm not here to argue.

[b52bob]

Having seen many posts locked I don't think it's a good idea. We have seen some products "beat to death" by two or three people while another two and three people think it's a great product and then there is this great big name calling and fight. I think we all know who the best publishers are and someone will always post some screen shots and hopefully POSITIVE and CONSTRUCTIVE comments.

There are different levels of payware for everyone. Someone beginning FSX and wants a simple airplane to fly, we know where to send them. If I got burned by a certain company by the quality of the product I wouldn't buy from them and would have learned my own lesson.

Let's not publicly bash our developers no matter what or soon we will have no publishers to bash.

[N2056]

I say no. It's not that hard to figure out the duds on your own if you are willing to work at it. I wish I could sell cars to some people I've seen in this hobby!

[falcon409]

. . . . . . . .The reason that I didn't make a thread, is that I wanted to check out and gauge opinion, and interest, as well as to get ideas about how to do it right. . . . . . . .If you feel like I am off base, feel free to correct me. . . . .

Ok jp, so based on what you've read here, I think the first part of that has been answered. The consensus, based on a lot of past experience on this forum, is that a thread of the type you suggest will end up being more destructive than constructive.

As for the second statement. . .I don't think your idea is "off-base" exactly, just something we've found to be counterproductive, that's all.

[heywooood]

you know - this might sound like a good idea...and I had thought the same thing when I came here a few years ago. I had just bought FSX and it was the first m/s flight sim I had ever owned - I am not from way back in the FS98 or earlier days and I wanted to know what to spend my money on...or to know what percentage of people bought addons vs those who only used freeware.

I read a few posts about a product or two and they were all positive so I made a purchase...and it fell far short of the quality of the default planes to my view - so I wondered why the hell that was the case...had I missed something? had I downloaded the wrong file? No and No.

Well I squawked about it here...and that was the wrong thing to do. People work at these products and its up to the consumer to put in the proper effort ie:research before making a buy.
Its just rude to go to a fan forum and debase the efforts of others, and that is what a negative thread, board or post would be - rude and a disservice to the developers who contribute either free or payware to this community.

But you can learn to read the tea leaves.

When a new plane is introduced you dont have to be the first one to own it

If it is out for a few days and doesn't generate a mostly positive three page thread or better in a week or less its likely one to pass on (unless its a subject you have deep interest in)

If the painters don't rave about it and clamor for blank textures right away or create paints for it right away...well that tells a story too...

and there are other indicators but it is what it is everywhere - buyer beware - and don't cry if you get burned when you weren't careful wit yo money

[N2056]

You nailed it! :salute:

[roger-wilco-66]

Good post, heywooood !



Cheers,
Mark

[stiz]

HOWEVER, as consumers it is YOUR RIGHT to be correctly informed on the products available on the market

Its also the advertisment chaps right to promote products, with the option of being allowed to include "bugs" in said advertisment or to not mention them, as long as he says "theres no bugs its 100% perfect!" its all perfectly legal. Dont blame the PR guys, their just doing their jobs, and if they make you buy a product you dont like, they've done it well

[Lateral-G]

I saw this post and thought..."oh boy........"

[Meshman]

HOWEVER, as consumers it is YOUR RIGHT to be correctly informed on the products available on the market.

I'm in the U.S. and we have the Bill of Rights that helps govern the country. I don't recall what portion covers the consumer being properly informed, can you point that out for me?

As a past and future payware developer I appreciate that I can come to SOH and say "Look at what I just released" and post a few screenies. Other sites prohibit that type of posting and that's OK. When I post, I subject my work to good and not-so-good comments. That's OK by me.

Over at Avsim a few months ago was a thread about a FS open source product that had been repackaged, as the license allows and was being hawked as a payware product. Many felt the poor, unsuspecting consumer needed to be protected. I questioned where the potential purchaser should begin to take responsibility for buying the product, as there is a ton of information available through Google and the other search engines about the product being freely available for download. Same applies for add-ons related to MS Flight Simulator. If someone buys a new shiny plane only to find out that it's barely above average freeware quality and has known bugs, should they have a valid complaint to trash the product and the developer. Some searching would probably reveal tons of information that would have influenced their purchasing decision. But the glossy preview pics and overly enthusiastic text just made them whip out the credit card and make that purchasing decision for them. Poor souls.

I don't know if people ever read my blog last year, but I would sometimes write about the overly enthusiastic gibberish from other developers and how people needed to make informed purchasing decisions. Some people may not have appreciated those comments and I'll try to be a "kinder and gentler" blogger in 2011 and beyond. But no promises or guarantees. Sitting on every page of my (off-line) web site is a "No BS" logo and I've received comments from people who appreciate the straight talk. No promises were made that your hair would be thicker or your sex life better or you would lose those 30 extra pounds if you bought my products, but I've seen some sites that make it seem like their products will do all that and more. Just click on the Pay Now button!

Discussion is a needed and vital part of the payware portion of the FS community. But IMO, it still boils down to personal responsibility. And having a venue to pass off that personal responsibility in the form of negative comments is not a good thing.

[jp]

Look I appreciate straight talk, and hate sugarcoating. However when straight talk becomes straight smart-a**, then I have an issue. Now, I agree that its up to the consumer to research, I was merely proposing an additional resource for more "free" communication, and somewhere you could relay concerns to other members. Now, if you research "the consumer bill of rights", you will see that it is a list of basic rights that consumers are entitled to, and was circulated during the Kennedy era, and remains today as the basis of our consumer policies, such as ensuring product safety, education, the product recall process, etc. It clearly states " Consumers have the right to be informed". Also, as aside note, we have an agency that moniters theses rights, and some of its jobs are to ensure that labels are accurate, commercials are truthful, and to protect against misleading product information in general. It's called the Federal Trade Commission. Now, if everyone agrees its a bad idea, then we will let it slowly sink . I just wanted to gauge interest and opinions.

[stiz]

lets just throw this out, if an american company gets sets up useing laws of the USA, then it tries to sue a european internet company for not setting things out clearly, should it still be allowed to if the european internet company is operating perfectly legally under european law?? If yes, switch the countrys round and see if you still say the same

[falcon409]

. . . . . . .Now, if everyone agrees its a bad idea, then we will let it slowly sink . I just wanted to gauge interest and opinions.

jp. . .obviously you want this to succeed, otherwise the posts from the page and a half you've already received would have pointed out the obvious. You've gotten a few folks who thought it was a good idea. . .most do not and that should be the end of it.

On the surface, it might have sounded to you like a legitimate suggestion and there's nothing wrong with throwing out new suggestions to see if they fly or not. However you've gotten more than enough feedback at this point to understand that it isn't seen as something that is needed here or that could supply the "constructive opinions and criticism" you seek. So in your own words, I believe it is time to. . . ."let it slowly sink". Let's move on.:salute:

[W. Bleddyn]

Any "Bill of Rights" is utterly meaningless in this case. It does not matter if you are American, Chinese, Russian etc... the internet is none of those nations and a forum is not a free country. It is a privately owned entity and you have no rights, just privileges to post granted to you by the owner under the rules set by the owner. That is why it is not illegal to ban you for breaking the rules.

*Edit - sorry falcon409, posted while you were.

[falcon409]

. . . . .*Edit - sorry falcon409, posted while you were.

No problem at all there Bleddyn. . .:salute:

[paulb]

However you've gotten more than enough feedback at this point to understand that it isn't seen as something that is needed here or that could supply the "constructive opinions and criticism" you seek.:salute:

IMHO, the saddest aspect of what you are saying appears to be that a number of members of this forum are unable to maintain a standard of "constructive opinions and criticism".

You may well be correct, given the number of threads that end up getting locked. It just seems a bit sad, given that jp had good intent and just wanted people (particularly newcomers) to be more informed. Still, I guess that's just life nowadays.

My comment is not intended as a criticism, just an observation.

[b52bob]

I agree, JP had good intent and I think everyone appreciates it but it just won't work. Let it slide.

[Roger]

Yep it's a good time to let it drift off.