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Thread: Fueling the discussion...

  1. #51
    Hi Hubbabubba,

    I believe you just described what I confirmed this evening for the stock P47D fuel selector. The standard aircraft checklist should list a check for the fuel selector because it won't work until the switch is used for the first time.

    BTW, Why are you trying to describe so many fuel selection gauges?

    - Ivan.

  2. #52
    SOH-CM-2019 hubbabubba's Avatar
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    BTW, Why are you trying to describe so many fuel selection gauges?
    I'm just doing something that should have been done eons ago. The discoveries we're making are proof of that.

    I'm only describing genuinely original switches. They all have their own original solution to fuel management, but they also obey to basic rules. Knowing both should help designer. I know it will help me.

    How long ago has this game been released?
    Torture numbers and they'll say anything.


    Hubbabubba, Touche à tout.

  3. #53
    The stock fuel gauges for CFS seem like obvious choices to describe as would be the FS98 stock gauges. I am still missing what the selection criteria are for the other gauges you have described. BTW, shouldn't you also list the actual gauge inside the monster gauge cluster for the stock aircraft?

    The FW 190A gauge is what I used for the P-40s with a slight cheat for the markings.

    The Hurricane Mk.I fuel selector should be fun!

    - Ivan.

  4. #54
    SOH-CM-2019 hubbabubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan View Post
    The stock fuel gauges for CFS seem like obvious choices to describe as would be the FS98 stock gauges. I am still missing what the selection criteria are for the other gauges you have described. BTW, shouldn't you also list the actual gauge inside the monster gauge cluster for the stock aircraft?

    The FW 190A gauge is what I used for the P-40s with a slight cheat for the markings.

    The Hurricane Mk.I fuel selector should be fun!

    - Ivan.
    Hello Ivan,

    Just to clear things before going on;
    The stock fuel gauges for CFS seem like obvious choices to describe as would be the FS98 stock gauges.
    There is no FS98 stock fuel management gauge. All fuel switches gauges ever made for FS98, and often used in CFS1 third party panels, are custom made. This is why I wanted to study them in a "CFS1 style" AIR file. I was the first surprise to see them work, even when sections 302 and 1003 were removed. Apart from ignoring central tanks #2 and #3, which were new additions for CFS1, they worked quite well.
    I am still missing what the selection criteria are for the other gauges you have described.
    All the gauges I described, minus one, are original. They all act differently and give different results. But "trends" could be observed that are constant in each gauge. More on that in my final conclusion.
    BTW, shouldn't you also list the actual gauge inside the monster gauge cluster for the stock aircraft?
    Why? I'm only preoccupied with fuel switches within these cluster. I thought it was obvious. The bitmaps used are subsets of the .GAU file, the programming of the gauge is, likewise, a subset of instructions. If there is one thing these "monster" gauges are lacking, it is flexibility.
    The Hurricane Mk.I fuel selector should be fun!
    I was working on that one when you posted. We may have different perspectives on what constitute "fun", we'll see...
    Torture numbers and they'll say anything.


    Hubbabubba, Touche à tout.

  5. #55
    I'm not quite sure what you mean about there being no stock FS98 fuel gauges. I figure that some of the stock aircraft that came with FS98 must have fuel switches. Are you saying that none of them do? I will go check tonight with my FS98 installation.

    BTW, do you fly with Auto Mixture?

    - Ivan.

  6. #56
    SOH-CM-2019 hubbabubba's Avatar
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    I'm not quite sure what you mean about there being no stock FS98 fuel gauges. I figure that some of the stock aircraft that came with FS98 must have fuel switches. Are you saying that none of them do?
    Yep! That's exactly what I meant. I had to look into my FS98 CD to make sure before answering your post.

    BTW, do you fly with Auto Mixture?
    Again, yep!
    Torture numbers and they'll say anything.


    Hubbabubba, Touche à tout.

  7. #57
    SOH-CM-2019 hubbabubba's Avatar
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    Name of the gauge: Hurricane_1.gau
    Internal name: none
    Organization: Microsoft Corporation
    Version: 1.0.5020
    Copyright: © 1983-1998 Microsoft Corporation. All Rights Reserved.

    Size at 1/1 ratio; 62 width, 65 height at low resolution, 98 width, 102 height at high resolution.

    Attachment 21383

    Visual: 4 bitmaps for both resolutions, each complete backgrounds. Backplate has the following inscriptions; PORT (9 O'clock); CENTER (12 O'clock); STBO (3 O'clock); RESERVE (6 O'clock, non-operable). Underneath, we can read FUEL TANK SELECTOR.

    Audio: none

    Functioning: The switch button is on the CENTER position and, if moved before start-up, will return automatically on that position upon start. After each mouse click anywhere over the gauge, the button goes to the next position in a loop following this sequence; CENTER > STBO > PORT > CENTER. You can't click to go backward.

    Effect: On initial CENTER position, all tanks (with the exception of wing tips tanks) are emptying according to the "no gauge" pattern already described in previous posts.

    On STBO position, auxiliary right tank is emptied. Once empty, main right tank is emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

    On PORT position, auxiliary left tank is emptied. Once empty, main left tank is emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

    On subsequent passage to CENTER position, center #1 tank is emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

    If you want to "tap" on auxiliary-main wing tanks again, you must cut-off the engines, either by selecting an empty tank or by cutting the engines, en restart them by pressing the E key.

    CONCLUSION

    I was a bit surprised to see the CENTER position only tapping the center #1 tank. Again, you have to remember that, if you don't click on it, it will empty the tanks in the "no gauge" order and start with the center #3 or #2, whichever contains fuel, and wings tanks despite pointing initially to the CENTER position. If center tank #1 is empty, you can still tap on center #2 and #3 by restarting the engines.

    I wonder what would happen if I placed the FW190A fuel switch and this one on the same panel...
    Torture numbers and they'll say anything.


    Hubbabubba, Touche à tout.

  8. #58
    SOH-CM-2019 hubbabubba's Avatar
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    Name of the gauge: P47d.gau
    Internal name: none
    Organization: Microsoft Corporation
    Version: 1.0.5020
    Copyright: © 1983-1998 Microsoft Corporation. All Rights Reserved.

    Size at 1/1 ratio; 61 width, 61 height at low resolution, 97 width, 97 height at high resolution.

    Attachment 21394The dial was uploaded as a transparent GIF to mimic real rendering. The background is actually a black square.

    Visual: 3 bitmaps for both resolutions, each complete backgrounds. Backplate has the following inscriptions; MAIN ON (12 O'clock); AUX ON (3 O'clock).

    Audio: none

    Functioning: The switch button is on the MAIN ON position and, if moved before start-up, will return automatically on that position upon start. After each mouse click anywhere over the gauge, the needle goes to the other position, switching from MAIN ON to AUX ON.

    Effect: On initial MAIN ON position, all tanks (with the exception of wing tips tanks) are emptying according to the "no gauge" pattern already described in previous posts.

    On AUX ON position, center #2 tank is emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

    On subsequent passage to MAIN ON position, center #1 tank is emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

    If you want to "tap" on auxiliary-main wing tanks and center #3 again, you must cut-off the engines, either by selecting an empty tank or by cutting the engines, en restart them by pressing the E key.

    CONCLUSION

    This switch acts like the FW190A switch, minus the center #3 tank, the "main" tank being #1 center and the "auxiliary" being #2 center.
    Torture numbers and they'll say anything.


    Hubbabubba, Touche à tout.

  9. #59
    SOH-CM-2019 hubbabubba's Avatar
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    Name of the gauge: P51d.gau
    Internal name: none
    Organization: Microsoft Corporation
    Version: 1.0.5020
    Copyright: © 1983-1998 Microsoft Corporation. All Rights Reserved.

    Size at 1/1 ratio; 42 width, 38 height at low resolution, 68 width, 61 height at high resolution.

    Attachment 21440 Again, the gauge bitmap was treated as a GIF with transparency to show the "shield" shape.

    Visual: 4 bitmaps for both resolutions, each complete backgrounds. Backplate has the following inscriptions; FUEL TANK SELECTOR (12 O'clock, non operable); 92 MAIN tank L (7 to 9 O'clock); FUS. tank 85 GAL (5 to 7 O'clock); 92 MAIN tank R (3 to 5 O'clock).

    Audio: none

    Functioning: The switch button is on the FUS. tank 85 GAL position and, if moved before start-up, will return automatically on that position upon start. After each mouse click anywhere over the gauge, the needle goes to the next position, cycling from FUS. tank 85 GAL to 92 MAIN tank R to 92 MAIN tank L to FUS. tank 85 GAL in a loop.

    Effect: On initial FUS. tank 85 GAL position, all tanks (with the exception of wing tips tanks) are emptying according to the "no gauge" pattern already described in previous posts.

    On 92 MAIN tank R position, auxiliary right wing tank is emptied. Once empty, main right wing tank is emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

    On 92 MAIN tank L position, auxiliary left wing tank is emptied. Once empty, main left wing tank is emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

    On subsequent passage to FUS. tank 85 GAL position, center #1 tank is emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

    If you want to "tap" on center #2 and #3 tanks, you must cut-off the engines, either by selecting an empty tank or by cutting the engines, en restart them by pressing the E key.

    CONCLUSION

    This switch acts exactly like the Hurricane_1 switch. Again, FUS. tank 85 GAL (FUS. for "fuselage"?) only taps on center #1 tank, which means that no CFS1 stock gauge uses all tanks. I will try a "combo" with this gauge and FW190A gauge.
    Torture numbers and they'll say anything.


    Hubbabubba, Touche à tout.

  10. #60
    SOH-CM-2019 hubbabubba's Avatar
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    Name of the gauge: Spitfire_MKI.gau
    Internal name: none
    Organization: Microsoft Corporation
    Version: 1.0.5020
    Copyright: © 1983-1998 Microsoft Corporation. All Rights Reserved.

    Size at 1/1 ratio; 32 width, 59 height at low resolution, 45 width, 88 height at high resolution.

    Attachment 23815

    Visual: 5 bitmaps for both resolutions, each complete backgrounds. Backplate is rectangular and has, on top, the inscription FUEL, two "levers" side by side are depicted with up ON and down OFF positions. The right lever is identified by the vertical inscription RESERVE and the left lever by the word MAIN

    Audio: none

    Functioning: The levers are on the ON positions and, if moved before start-up, will return automatically on these positions upon start. After each mouse click anywhere over the gauge, the levers go to the next position, cycling from ON ON to OFF OFF to ON OFF to OFF ON to ON ON in a loop.

    Effect: On initial ON ON position, all tanks (with the exception of wing tips tanks) are emptying according to the "no gauge" pattern already described in previous posts.

    On OFF OFF position, no tanks are emptied and engines cut-off.

    On ON OFF center #1 tank is emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

    On OFF ON center #2 tank is emptied. Once empty, engines cut-off and no other tank is solicited.

    On subsequent passage to ON ON position, all tanks (with the exception of wing tips tanks) are emptying according to the "no gauge" pattern already described in previous posts.

    This is the only CFS1-specific gauge that covers all tanks (minus tip tanks) in a loop. It is probably due to the fact that it is the only CFS1 fuel switch with an all off position.

    CONCLUSION

    This is the "best" CFS1 fuel switch available because, no matter the combination, you can empty all tanks in a normal cycle of clicks.
    Torture numbers and they'll say anything.


    Hubbabubba, Touche à tout.

  11. #61
    SOH-CM-2019 hubbabubba's Avatar
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    FINAL OBSERVATIONS

    As mentioned, I tried Hurricane and FW fuel switches together. The result was that I had almost entire control on central tanks and on lateral tanks groups, I could choose center #1-2-3 and right or left tanks, but always emptying auxiliary before main tanks. This method can have its drawbacks though. One of them is that, while clicking on one gauge, the other will visually switch too, giving false information. For example, if I switch the FW gauge to center #2, the Hurricane gauge will point to starboard tanks. This may be confusing, especially in the heat of the action. You must always remember that only the gauge you actually clicked on is showing the real tank(s) being emptied.

    If you have observed carefully, you will note that no gauges, FS98 or CFS1 style, is capable of tapping both right and left tanks at the same time. This is quite unfortunate as many a/c would manage fuel that way, if only to keep proper balance. Only at start-up do both sides are being emptied simultaneously. I don't know if such a gauge is feasible, but why not? After all, it is doing it on start.

    Curious to know what was done in FS2000 Pro, I installed mine just to have a look at the "pristine" gauge folder. The only fuel switches I found there are the CFS1 "cluster gauges"! There is not even one FS2000 specific cluster gauge! We can't say that M$ went to great efforts for that release. Only in CFS2 would they create new original fuel switches.

    While we are waiting for new CFS1 fuel switches (yeah...), modelers will have to "make do" with what's at hand. For example, a "center" gauge doesn't have to be on the center line and a left tank can be dead center. We should think out of the box and not necessarily follow the labeling of the AIR files.
    Torture numbers and they'll say anything.


    Hubbabubba, Touche à tout.

  12. #62
    Hi Hubbabubba,

    Next question that I can see would be: How well do the available fuel gauges cover the possibilities that we see in various aircraft? As you pointed out, it would be cool to have a switch setting that would use both Left and Right Main tanks at the same time, but is there an aircraft that has this arrangement?

    I can tell you that for the P-40 series of aircraft, the FW 190 gauge works well enough to properly control a similar arrangement of tanks. The markings are not useful, but I had a workaround for that as I will show in a screenshot later. It may not be elegant, but it isn't bad IMHO.

    For the F4U-1D Corsair, there is only a single internal tank with drop tanks that we do not represent, so NO gauge is sufficient. BTW, To represent Drop Tanks, can we have left and right tanks with fuel dump switch to represent salvoing the tanks before combat?

    For the F4U-1A Corsair which has no drop tanks but has a couple unarmoured outboard wing tanks, I just used the P-51D fuel switch. Seems to work though I would like to be able to choose NOT to fill those tanks for combat missions because they were only intended for ferry flights.

    For a Me 109 with a drop tank, we could use the Fuselage Auxiliary tank as the drop tank and a fuel dump switch for the aux tank. This plane didn't have a fuel switch to select drop tanks because air pressure was used to push fuel into the main (and only) tank which the engine used as its only supply.

    For the SBD Dauntless, the outboard wing tanks can be set as aux tanks and do not need a separate selection because they will empty as the left and right mains are selected.

    For the Ki-61 Hien, A6M Reisen and J2M Raiden, the P-51D fuel selector works to select Left, Right, and Fuselage tanks.

    For the Fokker Eindecker, no switch is necessary because although the pilot has to pump fuel from the "Main" tank to the one that the engine uses, we can just call the engine's tank as the Main tank and the real "Main" tank becomes the Auxiliary tank. Fuel use will be in the proper order.

    I was reading that the Hawker Sea Fury had a peculiar arrangement of tanks similar to the Germans in which some tanks only acted to supply others. Need to go back and read that again.

    What is the next step? Perhaps reviewing the fuel quantity gauges to figure out which to use?

    - Ivan.

  13. #63
    Hello Hubbabubba, et al.

    Years and years after the last post, I am about to revive another old thread, but I believe it makes sense to do so rather than start another thread on the same subject when Hubbabubba has presented a great amount of information on the subject.

    First I would like to answer my question about whether or not any real aeroplane actually draws from both Wing Tanks at the same time.
    Note that since the prior post in this thread, I have completed and released a Macchi C.202 Folgore.
    It actually does have two small Wing Tanks that are not individually selected.
    Another aeroplane that has been the subject of a little research during this time is the Nakajima Ki 43 Hayabusa.
    It, in fact has two pairs of Wing Tanks and ONLY draws from them in matched pairs.

    There is a minor factor that seems to have been hidden by the testing protocol used for the Fuel Switching Gauges:
    This is one I should have noticed years ago, but only noticed when I found this thread in a Web Search a couple months ago and re-read it from the start.
    In the Check Lists for my P-40 series, the instructions call for switching to the Fuselage Tank before starting the engine.
    Now this would make absolutely no sense if the fuel switch setting were over-ridden by the engine start process, but it is not.
    The selection remains even after engine start.
    This in itself is no proof because even without a selector, the Fuselage Tank would be drawn from first until it is done, but one can confirm with stock aircraft that the selector setting is NOT over-ridden at engine start.

    To confirm this, I used the stock P-51D which has Left Main, Right Main, and Center 1 Fuel tanks.
    If the selector is not used, the default is to draw from all three tanks as stated.
    If the 'E' key is used to start the engine, then the Fuel Selector is set to the Center position and all three tanks are used.
    However....
    If the Magneto, and Starter switches are used to start the engine, then the Fuel Selector setting does not change and fuel is drawn ONLY from whichever tank is selected.

    The obvious question would be: Why am I resurrecting this old thread and why was I searching on the Internet for Fuel Switching?
    The reason is simple: I have been working on Gauges for Multi Engine projects and have finally had some minor successes.
    With the basic gauges out of the way, I am now looking toward programming some of the other gauges (such as Fuel Selectors) that are not to be found among the available stock gauges.

    For both the P-38 Lightning and the B-25 Mitchell, the default Fuel use can be used to mimic the recommended fuel selection order even without gauges.
    Note that with Fuel Selector Gauges for a Twin Engine Aeroplane, not only should there be a tank selector for each engine (two or three per side) but a Cross Feed Switch should also be present to use the remaining fuel for a non functioning engine.

    So even if the Lightning and Mitchell do not need these gauges, perhaps I can address issues to be found in some of my other projects.

    - Ivan.

  14. #64

    good thinking......

    Hubba's idea of filling up all tanks with ten galls. of
    fuel and observing the results.....good thinking!
    anyone else doing interesting stuff like this

    >>papingo

  15. #65
    Hello Papingo,

    Glad to see you here.

    I think there are a couple interesting subjects being discussed at the moment, just not in this particular thread.
    I bumped it for a reason. There will be some work done in this area soon, but first I just need to figure out how to access all the fuel tanks that are available in CFS. The information I have available does not make it very clear how to do it.
    The default non-selected order that fuel tanks are expended is nice to know, but wouldn't it be even better if we could build a fuel selector to affect that order and not just know how it behaves if we CAN'T affect it?

    That was where I was headed before the recent diversion to a much older subject which I am still working on for now.

    Take Care.
    - Ivan.

  16. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan View Post
    There is a minor factor that seems to have been hidden by the testing protocol used for the Fuel Switching Gauges:
    This is one I should have noticed years ago, but only noticed when I found this thread in a Web Search a couple months ago and re-read it from the start.
    In the Check Lists for my P-40 series, the instructions call for switching to the Fuselage Tank before starting the engine.
    Now this would make absolutely no sense if the fuel switch setting were over-ridden by the engine start process, but it is not.
    The selection remains even after engine start.
    This in itself is no proof because even without a selector, the Fuselage Tank would be drawn from first until it is done, but one can confirm with stock aircraft that the selector setting is NOT over-ridden at engine start.

    To confirm this, I used the stock P-51D which has Left Main, Right Main, and Center 1 Fuel tanks.
    If the selector is not used, the default is to draw from all three tanks as stated.
    If the 'E' key is used to start the engine, then the Fuel Selector is set to the Center position and all three tanks are used.
    However....
    If the Magneto, and Starter switches are used to start the engine, then the Fuel Selector setting does not change and fuel is drawn ONLY from whichever tank is selected.

    Yet another update:
    The 'E' key does selects all available tank groups, resets mixture, and turns on both magnetos before starting the engine.....
    ....on a CFS AIR File.

    With the current Kawasaki Ki 61 project, I have also been looking around and experimenting with other related aeroplanes on my game machine.
    One of them is a very nice Kawasaki Ki-100 model that happens to have a FS98 AIR File.
    On this aeroplane, the 'E' key does NOT select all available fuel tank groups from what I can tell so apparently this process does not work the same with a FS98 Flight Model used in Combat Flight Simulator....

    - Ivan.

  17. #67

    My First Custom Fuel Selector

    About a year and a half after the last post, and with the release of my rework of Eric Johnson's P-39D Airacobra, I have finally finished my first custom Fuel Selector.

    The P-39 Airacobra only has a single fuel tank in each Wing Root.
    There is no CFS stock Fuel Selector which only has Left and Right Fuel Tanks.
    While it is possible to arrange the Fuel Tanks in the AIR file so that the fuel selector from the stock P47D can be used, the appearance with "Main" and "Aux" markings does not look appropriate with the arrangement on the Airacobra.

    Fortunately, programming a new Left-Right Fuel Selector was not terribly difficult.
    Creating new bitmaps for the gauge was the most difficult part.

    On this Gauge, there are three status positions:
    Left - Left Tank selected
    Right - Right Tank selected
    Center - Something other than Left or Right Tank is selected.

    Note that ONLY the Left or Right Tank can be manually selected using this gauge.
    The Center position is just an indicator that the current selection is something the gauge does not understand.

    From this gauge it was pretty easy to create a Left-Right-Center Selector.
    One might wonder why such a gauge would be useful considering that the options are the same as on the stock P51D or Hurricane_1 Fuel Selectors.
    The difference is that there are two mouse areas and it is not necessary to cycle through all three positions though it may be necessary to pass through the center position to get from one side to the other as one might expect with an actual Fuel Selector.

    - Ivan.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails AiracobraPanel.jpg  

  18. #68

    Next Steps

    So where do we go from here?

    My goal in regards to Fuel Selectors is to create specific gauges that are useful for my own projects and to learn enough to be able to write the code needed for any other gauges that are useful.

    These are the steps I intend to take in working with new gauges (but with an occasional diversion to keep things interesting):

    1. Figure out the coding needed to access every Fuel Tank that may be specified in a CFS AIR file.
    Tanks are the following
    Record - Description
    525 Left Tank
    526 Right Tank
    527 Left Aux Tank
    528 Right Aux Tank
    529 Left Tip Tank
    530 Right Tip Tank
    531 Center Tank 1
    532 Center Tank 2
    533 Center Tank 3

    Note that all of these tanks may be accessed by some combination of the stock fuel selectors except for the Left and Right Tip Tanks (Records 529, 530) as Hubbabubba has already pointed out earlier. Unfortunately, these tanks are also the most reasonable representation of the fuel system in two of my projects.

    2. Build a gauge set that allows for separate control of the fuel tanks used by Port and Starboard engines.
    This is the typical arrangement of control for a twin engine aircraft.

    3. Attempt to create a gauge that would be able to draw "simultaneously" from more than one fuel tank.
    In theory this should be possible with a few coding tricks.

    Further description of development will be in the Gauge Creation thread

    - Ivan.

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