Chopper pilot killed doing loop-de-loop

[wiltzei]

http://aircrashobserver.com/e107/news.php?item.1303.2

Video showing the crash.
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[blazefox2]

did he die in flight, from the impact or from the fire?

[Bone]

Doing that in a light chopper wasn't good judgement to begin with, plus, there's low level aerobatics, and then there's this...wayyy too low. He might have pulled it off if he had another 300-500 feet of altitude, but there would have been alot of stressed components on the chopper.

[Cratermaker]

What a shame. It looked like the helicopter was held in a vertical down attitude for too long. Not sure if it was due to pilot error or some sort of aerodynamic force. Then it appears that either he pulls up hard realizing the ground is coming up fast or he regained control authority too low. Not sure how the aerodynamics of a heli in free fall and nose toward the ground work.

[Lionheart]

Grim.... Sorry to see it.

May he rest in peace.

I didnt know the 500 could do a loop. Also, I have never seen someone try to do a loop so low to the ground.

sad...

[Dain Arns]

Well, the Red Bull Bo-105 can do loops and rolls, but its been heavily modified, especially the engines.
It also has a very rigid rotor system that allows it to do aerobatics.
In the video I attached, you can see Chuck Aaron keeps quite a bit of altitude.

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What Bone said, this incident just comes down to poor judgment on the pilot's part.
The MD500 is a pretty nimble little rotorcraft, but its not aerobatic.
My condolences to family and friends.
What an unfortunate tragedy.

[stansdds]

Way too low for that sort of aerobatic maneuver.

[Bone]

Well, the Red Bull Bo-105 can do loops and rolls, but its been heavily modified, especially the engines.
It also has a very rigid rotor system that allows it to do aerobatics.
In the video I attached, you can see Chuck Aaron keeps quite a bit of altitude.

WOW. That's some verrrrry impressive flying. It wouldn't surprise me if the mod's on that Bo-Kow cost more than what they paid for it to begin with. That chopper had some hellacious loads on it!

[Bjoern]

It wouldn't surprise me if the mod's on that Bo-Kow cost more than what they paid for it to begin with. That chopper had some hellacious loads on it!

Actaully, I think it's more the general design of the 105 that permits such stunts than any mods.


Not Red Bull:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...5000437&hl=en#

1970s promo (no aerobatics):
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...5000437&hl=en#

[jmig]

I pray for his family. May he rest in peace.

Bone, I agree that Red Bull pilot is doing some nifty flying. Amazing to see a chopter doing those maneuvers.

[Dain Arns]

Actaully, I think it's more the general design of the 105 that permits such stunts than any mods.

To a certain point, I would imagine that's why the Bo-105CBS was selected.
Replacing the standard two 250shp engines with 425shp one's and having a rigid rotor probably helps a whole lot more?

-------





Sounds like the 74 year old pilot was actually pretty experienced at this maneuver...

A German helicopter crashed Sunday outside the Belarusian capital Minsk during an aerobatics show, killing its pilot, a spokesman for the emergency situations ministry said.

The pilot, Gunter Zimmer, 74, was making "death loops" in his MD 500 helicopter when it crashed and burst into flames at the Borovaya airfield, which was hosting a Commonwealth of Independent States sport helicopter competition.

According to authorities in Minsk the aircraft went down just a few hundred metres from the crowd of spectators right after the competition began. The crowd reportedly fled the competition grounds in a panic.

The cause of the crash was not immediately known, but experts said they could not rule out that the experienced pilot from Dinslaken, North Rhine-Westphalia may have made a mistake or suffered from a health problem that lead to the accident.

Zimmer had been a long-time member of the ODM German national helicopter pilot’s team.

http://www.thelocal.de/society/20100809-29027.html

[Bone]

It says he was an experienced pilot, but I didn't see where it says he was experienced in that manuever (I'm not quibling, just sayin' what I read). There's no doubting that he's done a loop before, but if he owned or flew that particular chopper alot, he most likely didn't do many. The reason why I say that is, when you own a plane or fly the same one alot, you tend to keep it inside the envelope because you don't want it failing you down the road. I dare say that loops are a bit outside the envelope for an MD-500.

Edit: There probably are pilots that routinely take their stock airframe out of limits, but then they end up the same way this guy did.

[Dain Arns]

It says he was an experienced pilot, but I didn't see where it says he was experienced in that manuever (I'm not quibling, just sayin' what I read). There's no doubting that he's done a loop before, but if he owned or flew that particular chopper alot, he most likely didn't do many. The reason why I say that is, when you own a plane or fly the same one alot, you tend to keep it inside the envelope because you don't want it failing you down the road. I dare say that loops are a bit outside the envelope for an MD-500.

Since he was involved in an aerobatic competition for helicopter sports, a long-time member of the ODM German National Helicopter Pilot's team, and I doubt they would let anybody just walk fly right in and do a 'death loop', it's probably safe for a reasonable person to assume he had some experience in that maneuver?

[Snuffy]

There's just something in my mind that gets all confused about trying to do loop to loop with an aircraft that uses vertical thrust as a means of flying ...

Some things are just meant not to be done at any altitude.

[Bone]

Since he was involved in an aerobatic competition for helicopter sports, a long-time member of the ODM German National Helicopter Pilot's team, and I doubt they would let anybody just walk fly right in and do a 'death loop', it's probably safe for a reasonable person to assume he had some experience in that maneuver?

I wasn't disputing his credentials, and I wasn't saying he's not done loops...I did say there's no doubting that he's done loops. But experience is a relative thing. To me, experience at doing loops would be something on the order of ALOT of loops, not just a few here and there. An experienced aerobatic pilot, especially one who's on a team, would have many 100's to 1000's. That would be experienced at doing loops. I've only got about 85 hours doing pure aerobatics, and I've done maybe 90 to 100 loops...that's real world flying, not FS...and I would say I'm proficient at it, rather than experienced. Just watching the clip of this guy starting the manuever at such a low altitude and then burning it in, makes me think he wasn't very proficient at loops. He might have been the "Ace of the Base" at everything else, but loops were obviously not his forte.

Granted, my numbers here are more slanted to fixed wing, rather than choppers. But then you'll find more fixed wing certified for looping, and not many choppers.

Anyway, he died, and it's a darn shame. I've done things I'll never do again, and count myself lucky the pendulum didn't swing against me.

Cheers, Dain.

[Prowler1111]

Condolences to his family, there is one thing that rings a bell here..74 yrs old?..at that age disorientation strikes like a raging bull..maybe he got disoriented during the loop and realized something was out of shape too late?

Prowler

[kilo delta]

Condolences to his family, there is one thing that rings a bell here..74 yrs old?..at that age disorientation strikes like a raging bull..maybe he got disoriented during the loop and realized something was out of shape too late?

Prowler

That's definitely a possibility...though I'm sure that he'd have been flagged as being unfit to hold a display permit/waiver/licence if he wasn't up to the job? Another factor could be complacency.
He initiated the loop at extremely low level without factoring in any safety margin. Truly great aerobatic pilots are a rare breed....unfortunately many have departed this world by not adhering to the old adage "Altitude equals safety".

[bstolle]

Looks like his age and/or state of fitness was a factor. If you look how smooth he pulls up into the loop, and how rapidly he tries to pulls out of it after the 1 second straight down part, it looks a lot like a G-loc. If he would have maintained the pull around there would have been enough altitude...as for the many times he did this maneuver before.

[Bone]

Looks like his age and/or state of fitness was a factor. If you look how smooth he pulls up into the loop, and how rapidly he tries to pulls out of it after the 1 second straight down part, it looks a lot like a G-loc. If he would have maintained the pull around there would have been enough altitude...as for the many times he did this maneuver before.

Here's my take on what happened on the backside of the loop.

As he came down on the backside of the loop, where you refer to as the 1 second straight down part, I would imagine that's where he realized he didn't have enough altitude. He pulled back very hard (too hard for a chopper), and if he was like any other well trained pilot, his mind told him he was exceeding airframe limitations and then reflexively relaxed the back-pressure on the the stick. Then his survival switch clicked in his head and he pulled back even more aggressively. Kind of a "screw the limitations, I want to live" scenario. This time he held the back-pressure on the stick until impact. He was holding the stick back VERY hard, which you can only do when you're awake. The attitude of the chopper had rotated upwards to almost level by the time it impacted, but it couldn't overcome the downward vector trend of it's flight path. This is refered to as a CFIT accident...Controlled Flight Into Terrain.

Look at the clip again, you can see the chopper react to both hard stick inputs...hard back, then relaxed, even harder back and hold. If he had G-LOC'd, you would have seen the chopper go back to a more nose down attitude after the second hard pull back rather than level...because when you go to sleep, your hands let go.

Just my opinion...cheers.

[bstolle]

>Look at the clip again, you can see the chopper react to both hard stick inputs...hard back, then relaxed, even harder back and hold. If he had G-LOC'd....

The inputs you are refering to happen AFTER the G-loc (the straight down line).
CFIT ???? I always thought that's the difinition for hitting mountains or ground in IMC during 'controlled flight'. Hitting the ground in situation where the craft is definitely not doing what you want doesn't qualify as CFIT at all IMHO

[Bone]

>Look at the clip again, you can see the chopper react to both hard stick inputs...hard back, then relaxed, even harder back and hold. If he had G-LOC'd....

The inputs you are refering to happen AFTER the G-loc (the straight down line).
CFIT ???? I always thought that's the difinition for hitting mountains or ground in IMC during 'controlled flight'. Hitting the ground in situation where the craft is definitely not doing what you want doesn't qualify as CFIT at all IMHO

The chopper was under control when it impacted. Just because there wasn't enough distance between the chopper and the ground to complete the loop doesn't disqualify it as a CFIT event...he flew it into the ground just like the T-Birds did with their T-38's many years ago. If you think he G-LOC'd on the front side of the loop or at the top of it, then fine...I find that hard to believe, but OK. The greatest G-load in this case is when he tried to pull out of the loop. If he passed out at the top of the loop, he woke up pretty darn quickly and showed an amazing effort at clearing his head (and staying awake) enough to try and recover the manuever....which would be at odds with a 74 year old passing out to begin with. A 25 year old would most likely not regain consciousness and clarity that quickly.



Here's an excerpt, and the link, also.

http://www.associatepublisher.com/e/...underbirds.htm

1982, there was another disaster for the Thunderbirds, occuring during pre-season training on January 18th. While practicing the 4 plane diamond loop, the formation impacted the ground at high speed, instantly killing all four pilots: Major Norm Lowry, leader, Captain Willie Mays, Captain Pete Peterson and Captain Mark Melancon. The cause of the crash was officially listed by the USAF as the result of a mechanical problem with the #1 aircraft's control stick actuator. Despite the fact that the accident investigative board had not uncovered any evidence to support this theory, there was heavy pressure from the pilots' families and top Air Force officials to arrive at this conclusion. During formation flight, the wing and slot pilots visually cue off of the #1 lead aircraft, completely disregarding their positions in relation to the ground. In this accident, this is the root cause for all four aircraft impacting the terrain, not just the lead jet with the problem.
Many in the fighter community felt that the cause was most likely a result of the lead pilot's error due to a simple miscalculation, the equivalent of controlled flight into terrain (cfit). <TABLE class=imgR cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 bgColor=#cccccc><TBODY><TR><TD align=middle></TD></TR><TR><TD class=wkTC width=260>Thunderbirds F-16s precisely lined up on the ramp at Nellis AFB just prior to the team's last performance of 2004.












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EDIT: I know you're a Professional Pilot, sg38, so I certainly respect your opinion on this....we're just looking at it differently. Cheers