Mach, mock, squawk
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  1. #1
    Charter Member 2022 srgalahad's Avatar
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    Mach, mock, squawk

    Due to the nature of the PacRim event a lot of people are discovering the realm of Mach numbers for the first time. Others have been there but trusted the simple view that there are 'dependable' numbers that can be used to measure Mach and related performance.

    First, here's a link to a specific reply I made to a query about a Duenna.
    http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforum...l=1#post402137

    There has also been a lot of discussion about "subsonic/supersonic" aircraft. It was allowed in the PacRim that an aircraft would be deemed OK if it could be tested and flown and unable to exceed Mach 1.00 in level flight.
    Assuming that everyone complied with 'standard' test procedures for this - Wx set to "Clear skies", aircraft tested at multiple altitudes from Sea Level to near service ceiling, - we have done the tests on pilot's honour and allowed numerous aircraft that have not complied with the "old rule" of a .cfg file with a listed Mmo of "less than M 1.00 We have demonstrated reliably the principle that the Mmo (Max. Operating Mach Number) is just that.. an aerodynamic MAXIMUM, not what the aircraft can maintain in level flight. (ie. ' It won't go that fast unless you dive it and then prepare to get hurt if you exceed the Mmo'). Now, the next question is whether we trust each other to do the testing properly. I'm beginning to wonder if we do... but that is a different can of worms.

    However, it must be remembered that "Mach" is a variable. The empirical test shows the speed of sound (Mach 1.0) is 661 Kts at Sea Level in International Standard Atmosphere (ISA = 29.92"Hg and 15*Celsius) or roughly equivalent to MSFS "Clear Skies"). The link I posted in the above thread is repeated here:
    http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/mach.asp
    and I am sure you can find many more references and tables.

    What is critical for us is that we don't fly in ISA - we use Real World Weather. Temperature varies, pressure varies, winds vary. No single Duenna data point will conclusively show what is happening. Duenna produces:

    • A max GS -but GS is dependent on winds vs airspeed - so it does not show pure AIRSPEED and only indicative of speed over the ground - not though the air.
    • A Max IAS - but that is a) transient moment-by-moment; b)affected by temp. , pressure, rate of climb/descent so it is not a measure of level flight speed either
    • Duenna does not show atmospheric data at each reporting point so there is no way to know what the IAS/Mach relationship is at any given moment.

    Certainly, an acceptable (M 0.99 or less in level flight) aircraft might well exceed Mach 1 in a dive (which is allowed) but consider the mechanics of it... Most aircraft I have tested require a significant dive (in excess of 5000 ft/min) to exceed M 1.0 so even a dive from 35000 ft will not be of much advantage and besides, the Race speed is NOT calculated from a Mach number or IAS but from Distance /Time so a few minutes of 700 Kts IAS are not going to have an impact over a race of 20+ hours! Additionally, ALL of you can test the limits of the aircraft if you are willing to take the chance on any leg.

    As for the "apparent excessive speeds" you may see in a Duenna snapshot, look at these screenshots (remembering that old bit about 661 Kts at Sea Level)

    1. Test flight at Darwin descending from 5000 Ft in "Clear Wx" note the Mach # and IAS
    2. Same test in Real World weather at Darwin...
    3. AFSD showing atmospheric data moments after the previous picture - note temp and pressure values -NOT ISA to be sure!
    4. In an effort to put this together quickly, the test pilots pushed the envelope. Photo shows nose gear damage from a "too high" extension speed on approach. Repair bills are being sent to the PacRim participants.

    In summary, the whole issue of "transonic" flight is a lot more complex that a few numbers in a snapshot view - just ask the guys who supported aircraft like the X-1. No simple rule and no simple look at the MSFS flight envelope is going to give a perfect answer. For all practical purposes, and over the long term, as long as an aircraft can be shown to be incapable of reaching/maintaining/exceeding Mach 1.00 IN LEVEL FLIGHT IN ISA conditions, it should be good enough.

    As for the odd, temporary anomaly, perhaps we should look at rules that require a 24-72 hour maintenance period (even better, a slow-speed ferry flight to a maintenance base) for any reported overspeed or exceeding a "G" limit in flight or on landing (real-world commercial aircraft have sensors in the gear to show the latter and it requires logbook entries and an inspection). Ya Think????
    The Committee in this event wanted simplicity to satisfy a request from pilots. The mystery is then why pilots want to nitpick the application of those rules - which can only result in tougher, tighter, more complex rules to "fix" the perceived unfairness or misuse.

    "To some the sky is the limit. To others it is home" anon.
    “Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new.” -Albert Einstein


  2. #2
    Well said Rob, I stand by my A-4 test numbers.
    -John-

  3. #3
    Charter Member 2022 srgalahad's Avatar
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    A Clarification or expansion of my earlier comments:
    Duenna produces:

    • A max GS -but GS is dependent on winds vs airspeed - so it does not show pure AIRSPEED and only indicative of speed over the ground - not though the air.
    • A Max IAS - but that is a) transient moment-by-moment; b)affected by temp. , pressure, rate of climb/descent so it is not a measure of level flight speed either
    • Duenna does not show atmospheric data at each reporting point so there is no way to know what the IAS/Mach relationship is at any given moment.
    Groundspeed must be viewed in conjunction with the simultaneous wind and still is not part of a race standard or rule.
    Duenna does show interval data of IAS, but there is no relative Mach #shown. Even so, the issue is still "sustained" level flight at greater than M 0.99. The sustained speed would show up if prolonged, but to calculate the Mach # you would need the actual atmospheric data for the same period of time.
    In addition, a wind shift can increase/decrease IAS on a transient basis but again it is not a 'sustained level flight' event. As the Mach number is a relationship between the object and the air around it, if the motion of the air changes, so will the Mach # and approximately so will the IAS. Instruments like an airspeed indicator have errors (hence the development of Calibrated Instrument AirSpeed obtained by test instrumentation and then calculated) and a small, but effective degree of lag as the instrument reacts to change in the airmass.

    In the absence of an observer with tracking equipment and/or in a place to hear the not-modeled 'sonic boom' there is no empirical way in Flight Sim to state that an aircraft has reached and exceeded Mach 1 from the data currently available in the Duenna report. Could it be included? perhaps, but then it is one more factor to be regularly evaluated and checked during an event. Then we have to ask "what is the borderline between transient and sustained?"

    Besides, other than to comply with an arbitrary rule that may not impact the event, who cares if it is a transient event?

    Rob

    "To some the sky is the limit. To others it is home" anon.
    “Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new.” -Albert Einstein


  4. #4
    The MAX speed of the A-4C (according to http://a4skyhawk.org/2c/techdata.htm) is A-4C/L = 649 MPH, which converts to '649 mile/hour (mph) = 0.852 593 258 69 mach', a FAR cry from M.98. (an example of one of this years participants) Can you post evidence that +/- 10 C. would effect the reported airspeed by M.13 ?

    I know it's all relative as the rules said nothing about a model being an accurate representation of reality, it just has to be subsonic.

    I DO enjoy our sparring, but ultimately I will bow to your expertise in aeronautical engineering and gift of gab (as usual).
    "May fortune favor the foolish"
    MaddogK

  5. #5
    that is a great website it confirms the FS Aircraft is modeled fairly close to the real world plane.

    Maximum Level Speed (mph)
    A-4A = 664
    A-4B = 661
    A-4C/L = 649
    A-4E/F/M = 673
    TA-4F = 675
    A4D-1 BuNo 137820, LT Gordon Gray USN - 500 kilometer closed course world speed record 695.163 MPH, 15OCT1955, Edwards Air Force Base.

    The Skyhawk can exceed the speed of sound in a dive, but it is not a recommended activity.

    A Skyhawk's roll rate is 720 degrees per second with a limitation of 2 rolls before the front and back of the airplane switch positions uncontrollably do to a dynamic called "roll coupling".
    I say that because it is likely that the safe operating speed is 649 mph (assuming sea level) This safe operating speed in the real world will not be Full throttle.

    It is very possible that pushing the throttle full forward will yield a .98 mach number or certainly a whole lot faster than .85.

    This is ultimately a race so I expect that everyone one is running with the Throttle full forward.

    If we look at cruise speed numbers for all of these aircraft that are being flown we will find non of us are with in the allowed real world numbers.
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  6. #6
    To the above:Where does it say 'safe' in the A4 specs?

    My A/C:
    http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...f-86-specs.htm
    Maximum speed 685 mph
    685 mile/hour (mph) = 595.248 725 71 knot

    Show me where in my logs I exceeded the real A/C speed by 100 MPH.
    "May fortune favor the foolish"
    MaddogK

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