bill lyons Pa22

**Daveroo** · March 21st, 2010, 07:04

has anyone worked on Mr lyons Pa22 for fsx?..i installed it and it seems to have some "holes"? in it..but it "works"...hoping someone may have updated it

**robcap** · March 21st, 2010, 07:25

Hi,

If I could get my hands on the Gmax source (with permission ofcourse :salute

I would love to give that a try!!!!!
I was just thinking about that this morning, when I read a magazine. Great little plane.
With the modeling bit done, I could do the texture mapping and animations, maybe some new gauges.....
So if someone could point me in that direction, I would be very glad.

Rob

**Lionheart** · March 21st, 2010, 07:40

I might suggest that, with respect, you dont ask Bill for his files to 'improve' them. That would be like going to Leonardo DaVinci or VanGogh and say you wish to have his original so you can 'improve' it.

Why not create a new one? Make a new shell and add all the bits on. It doesnt have to be super sophisticated, or you could do to it that things that no one else does, some really cool 'new concept' things that no one else has ever done before..

Dont be afraid to make your own.

And, out of respect for Bill, a great mentor and historic FS figure and father, dont try to remake his 'artwork', (aside from custom repaints of course).

<--- love his Tri-Pacer

Oh, also, on a side note; Bill didnt use Gmax except on the Waco. He hated it and loved working in FS Design Studio. That was his favorite brushes of choice.

Bill (his student)

**robcap** · March 21st, 2010, 07:51

I respect Bill L. as much as you do Bill :salute:
I'm not trying to improve what he did, I would just be happy to come near his work.
I just love the tri-pacer.
I'm not afraid to do the modeling, but what's done is done ;-) It's enough work to make it FSX compatible.

R.

**Lionheart** · March 21st, 2010, 08:21

Hey Rob,

Roger that.

:ernae:

I didnt mean to sound like FS police..

Could you imagine Bill making that thing for FSX, with unlimited poly count, 2048 textures, no more budgets on textures and vertice counts... He would have oil in the engine, tubes in the radios, fuel in the tanks, lol...

The wild part of his work was his programming and effects. He could do some cool 'technology' stuff in FS with code and all. He had these reflection tricks that I still havent figured out, some sort of semi-transparent blanket texture moving in the glass of the plexi and the gauges. He created rain splashes on the ground once for his Swedish biz jet, as well as rain mist kicking up from the tires when you were in the rain. His glass screen panel in that jet had all the various calculations for fuel and endurance, etc..

Some cool work.. .

Bill

Slug Flyer · March 21st, 2010, 09:18

I'm sorry to say that in some respects, Mr. Lyons' last works weren't as good as his earlier ones. The Tri-Pacer, for example, had a really hot-rodded flight model as I recall, and both the Tri-Pacer and Luscombe suffered from bad texture artifacts and corruption from being saved too many times in formats like DXT-3.

**Bjoern** · March 21st, 2010, 13:37

Bill Lyons doing native FSX stuff...I bet he would constantly set new benchmarks in detailing.

"Hey, there's dust on the glareshield!"
*Klick on the dust*
*Dustcloud in the cockpit*
*Glareshield clean*
:d

MCDesigns · March 21st, 2010, 13:49

The tri pacer package was my fav from Bill, flew that thing to pieces in FS9, really wish it was recompiled for FSX, would love to have it working again!

I totally agree with wanting Bill to do FSX work, with his knack for the small details and thinking outside the box, I can only imagine what great addons would come out from him

**Overshoe** · March 21st, 2010, 17:04

I have bad news and I have bad news.
1. There is no Gmax source. Bill worked in FSDS. Since Bill worked outside the SDK and did his own magic he has made it clear that NO source code would ever be released in any case. He has told me that nothing that is not now available will be released and in fact may no longer exist. It has been removed from his computer.

2. Although I never say never, there is a 99.9% certainty that Bill will never model anything for FSX. He does not even have FS (any version) installed on his computer and he limits his computer time strictly.

Possiblities:

Bill has given general permission to developers to try to update his planes (EXCEPT the Graf) for FSX. Without source code of course. Good luck.

Ken Stallings · March 21st, 2010, 18:56

Overshoe,

Appreciate the timely and accurate reply.

However, I feel like someone just shot my puppy! I don't know what makes me sadder really -- that this means nothing of Bill Lyon's genius in FSX, or zero hope of that ever changing.

Oh well, nothing in life lasts forever, including life itself!

Cheers,

Ken

**N2056** · March 21st, 2010, 19:05

I respect Bill's wishes on modifying his files. As much as I would like to tweak some of his planes I know that sometimes you need to leave well enough alone. I am looking at doing a Globe Swift in the hopefully not too distant future...but I would never think to mess with the one he made!

**Overshoe** · March 21st, 2010, 19:11

Originally Posted by Ken Stallings

Overshoe,

Appreciate the timely and accurate reply.

However, I feel like someone just shot my puppy! I don't know what makes me sadder really -- that this means nothing of Bill Lyon's genius in FSX, or zero hope of that ever changing.

Oh well, nothing in life lasts forever, including life itself!

Cheers,

Ken

Yup, My puppy got shot about 2-1/2 years ago.
But others have stepped into the void and that is how it has always been. We were spoiled having Bill around for so long. Heck, The Old Hangar would not exist if not for Bill. But now it's up to others to spoil us

**Overshoe** · March 21st, 2010, 19:16

Originally Posted by N2056

I respect Bill's wishes on modifying his files. As much as I would like to tweak some of his planes I know that sometimes you need to leave well enough alone. I am looking at doing a Globe Swift in the hopefully not too distant future...but I would never think to mess with the one he made!

A new Globe Swift would be a treat. That was a fun plane. Of course, Bill's was an FS2002 plane so it's twice removed fro FSX.

(and Bill has no objection to tweaking, but of course tweaks are very limited without source.)

**N2056** · March 21st, 2010, 19:21

I had the great luck of crossing paths at work with someone that owns a Swift in Maine, and I also have a local contact...so when I decide it's time hopefully these guys will help me out!

**Lionheart** · March 21st, 2010, 19:41

Originally Posted by MCDesigns

The tri pacer package was my fav from Bill, flew that thing to pieces in FS9, really wish it was recompiled for FSX, would love to have it working again!

I totally agree with wanting Bill to do FSX work, with his knack for the small details and thinking outside the box, I can only imagine what great addons would come out from him

I think that was my fave plane also. I loved how it flew. It was a real hotrod, landed awesome, great landing gear animations (loved how the nose dived when you hit the brakes, like a worn in oleo might do).

I thought his textures were done like that on purpose. they had a fabric appearence, like 'tooth' in the fabric. I have studied those textures often. I was just thinking about this perhaps 3 days ago when I was working on my own plane, wondering how he did those patterns..

Great planes..

That Sikorsky was also a fave of mine. Great for those hops in Hawaii...

Bill

***falcon409*** · March 21st, 2010, 20:20

Bill, wasn't it the TriPacer release and the ensuing criticisms over what was perceived to have been a "too early" release by some that was the beginning of the end to Bill's modeling in FS?

I seem to remember something about folks on another forum really getting kinda ugly because they said he had released the aircraft without fully testing it and that the FDE was terrible and so on and so forth? I know there was a big deal about it and eventually Bill basically said "fine, you wanna be that way". . .see ya later. . .and he stepped away.

To be honest, I never read any of the posts, never had any direct knowledge of what actually started it, just that it was well publicized that Bill was pretty upset with the reaction by some individuals (and for good reason) and that he had had enough. Another fine example of rivet counters and so-called experts who actually know nothing at all, ruining the future possibilities of a master modeler. Imagine. . .we probably wouldn't even be discussing this had it not been for that encounter, we'd be enjoying the mastery of Bill Lyons in FSX..

Too bad.

**TeiscoDelRay** · March 21st, 2010, 20:50

I still fly mostly Bill's stuff in Fs9. He had a way of adding those little personal touches to his planes to make them come alive. Like the little one eyed dog in the back of the Goose that covers his eyes when I make a scary landing,,or the way the Goose frost up in a snow storm. Or how about the intercom on the S-43 that anounces info to the passengers and the co pilot that always smiles and looks around.

I was watching the video of the B17 from Accu Sim and noticed the pilot and co pilot where moving their heads and looking around and thinking Bill did that in several of his planes years ago.

I remember when I was learning to model for Fs 5 or (cant remember,,too many of them) some version of this timeless sim and I made a series of 30's racers. I asked Bill if I could put the view into the cockpit and not use a panel and of course he had already done that several times.

Bill is one of the nicest guys I have ever met and several times we got together and brain stormed,,his brain, my storm. Today Bill is making very cool little electric planes and flying them in school gyms and such. His Fs days are gone and just recently I asked him about how to properly start the Sikorsky and he said he forgot.

I can understand walking away from something you love if it becomes more than a hobby. I quit for about six years and just recentlly got back into it. I got FX and messed with it a bit and then replaced it with Fs9. FX ran ok but I missed the Fs9 stuff and mostly Bill's planes. So now I just fly his stuff and paint a few up once in awhile

Legends are rare in this fast and easy come world today but Bill is one for sure. I asked him once how he felt about being a legend and he smiled and said "who, me?".

Slug Flyer · March 21st, 2010, 21:15

Originally Posted by falcon409

Another fine example of rivet counters and so-called experts who actually know nothing at all, ruining the future possibilities of a master modeler.

I know enough to recognize the over-pixelization and random off-color effects of a texture saved too many times in a low-quality format during development, because I had made that mistake myself several times through carelessness while experimenting with repaints.

Yeah, some of the people who criticized the Tri-Pacer were probably rude about it, and it's a shame the way things turned out, but some of their beefs were legitimate. Great modelers are not infallible. The quality of Mr. Lyons' releases prior to that was probably part of why people were so perplexed by some of the problems with the Tri-Pacer.

Ken Stallings · March 21st, 2010, 21:33

Originally Posted by falcon409

I seem to remember something about folks on another forum really getting kinda ugly because they said he had released the aircraft without fully testing it and that the FDE was terrible and so on and so forth? I know there was a big deal about it and eventually Bill basically said "fine, you wanna be that way". . .see ya later. . .and he stepped away.

That's pretty much how I remember it. Bill's releases were simply the best combination of quality and value there was and it seemed a small cabal of people came out and really went to town on some of his aircraft, while the vat majority of us stood in shock and disappointment.

The sheer amount of hard work Bill put into every design was underappreciate by nearly everyone, including most of those who enthusiastically endorsed his work. It wasn't just the aircraft, but all the supporting scenery and the well thought upon concepts that tried to capture the beauty and personal nature of general aviation.

My final point is that Bill never lashed out at anyone. He was just too much the gentleman for that. He simply stepped away and the timing of the departure spoke volumes without him having to say anything. Considering how many years have passed without anyone else coming close to capturing that same combination of quality and value, even less so the unique personality of the packages, speaks ever more about the special talent we lost.

Like Tom and I wrote ... pretty much a gut kicker like having your puppy shot!

Ken

***fsafranek*** · March 21st, 2010, 21:35

I've never understood why people get so upset about textures or flight models. Those are the two areas (gauges as well) that users can change to their heart's content. If people think something in those areas could use improvement there are many people with the skills who are more than happy to fix it.

The Tri-Pacer has always been a favorite of mine since I read a book titled, "Anyone Can Fly" by Jules Bergman. A great little plane. It would be nice to have have a good one for FSX.

Originally Posted by falcon409

Bill, wasn't it the TriPacer release and the ensuing criticisms over what was perceived to have been a "too early" release by some that was the beginning of the end to Bill's modeling in FS?

I seem to remember something about folks on another forum really getting kinda ugly because they said he had released the aircraft without fully testing it and that the FDE was terrible and so on and so forth? I know there was a big deal about it and eventually Bill basically said "fine, you wanna be that way". . .see ya later. . .and he stepped away.

To be honest, I never read any of the posts, never had any direct knowledge of what actually started it, just that it was well publicized that Bill was pretty upset with the reaction by some individuals (and for good reason) and that he had had enough. Another fine example of rivet counters and so-called experts who actually know nothing at all, ruining the future possibilities of a master modeler. Imagine. . .we probably wouldn't even be discussing this had it not been for that encounter, we'd be enjoying the mastery of Bill Lyons in FSX..

Too bad.

***falcon409*** · March 21st, 2010, 21:41

Originally Posted by Ken Stallings

. . . . .Considering how many years have passed without anyone else coming close to capturing that same combination of quality and value, even less so the unique personality of the packages, speaks ever more about the special talent we lost.

Like Tom and I wrote ... pretty much a gut kicker like having your puppy shot!

Ken

Well said Ken. He was unique in his abilities.:salute:

***Dimus*** · March 22nd, 2010, 01:27

Bill's creations were the first ones that I happily paid for to get. He was the reason I created a Paypal account. I fondly remember the Travel Air series that he made and the barnstorming scenery that came with them, including a speeding train that you could chase. The Goose package was another classic that brought back my childhood memories of the "Golden monkey" show. I was also amazed by how responsive and kind he was when I emailed him with support questions. A true gentleman! It is a pity we do not enjoy his talent in FSX.

Now I can say I smelled an escence of Bill Lyons in Bill Lionheart's Tailwind, the minute I stepped into the cockpit. I truly believe Bill is following up closely on Bill's footsteps. Keep up the great work Bill!

harleyman · March 22nd, 2010, 01:44

Yup...A true artist at his best for sure..

I also loved his Sikorsky...

**warchild** · March 22nd, 2010, 09:17

speaking of the tri Pacer, i've been searching for a download of it for days, and it doesnt seem to be anywhere.. Does anyone know where a girl could get her hands on one???
Pam

**Overshoe** · March 22nd, 2010, 09:36

Originally Posted by falcon409

Bill, wasn't it the TriPacer release and the ensuing criticisms over what was perceived to have been a "too early" release by some that was the beginning of the end to Bill's modeling in FS?

While I am not saying that things like that had no effect, it is far more complicated than that and some of Bill's reasons for quitting had nothing to do with FS.

RE: The various criticisms, the things that made Bill's work special to many of us were the very things that infuriated the nit-pickers, nay-sayers and rivet-counters. Bill was selling an experience and they just did not get it. (Still don't.) They wanted something else entirely. We see the same thing today when people cut and slash at certain developers. It isn't because those developers are bad, it is because those developers are not giving the cut & slashers exactly what _THEY_ want. And WHEN THEY DEMAND IT. (This is wasted effort, but I think the cut & slashers should get a life. Most of the developers actually have one.) And TeiscoDelRay who is even closer to Bill that I am/was will tell you that today Bill certainly has a life.