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  1. #1

    ~ Simply Brilliant Thinking!! ~

    .
    Just got the following message in an email from a life-long friend back in our homestate of Indiana. Check this out...

    .
    "On Tuesday, the Senate health committee voted 12-11 in favor of a
    two-page amendment that would require all Members and their staffs to
    enroll in any new government-run health plan..


    It took me less than a minute to sign up to require our congressmen
    and senators to drink at the same trough!


    Three cheers for Congressman John Fleming of Louisiana !

    Congressman John Fleming ( Louisiana physician) has proposed an
    amendment that would require congressmen and senators to take the same
    healthcare plan they force on us (under proposed legislation they are
    curiously exempt).

    Congressman Fleming is encouraging people to go on his Website and Sign
    his petition (very simple - just email).
    I have just done just that at:



    http://fleming.house.gov/index.cfm?sectionid=55
    .

    Please urge as many people as you can to do the same!


    If Congress forces this on the American people, the Congress should
    have to accept the same level of health care for themselves and their
    families.


    To do otherwise is the height of hypocrisy!


    Please pass this on!!"
    .

    ​.

  2. #2
    Forgive my ignorance but is this congressman for or against the proposed changes. I havn't kept up with recent developments.

    I was under the impression that any government initiative would be ran alongside private firms, offering the public a choice.

  3. #3
    SOH-CM-2014
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    All I know is that I have no insurance for health. All the other countries on Earth have 'public health care' except the United States and probably some banana republics and some arabic countries. No.. The arabic countries probably have it.

    We were the greatest country on Earth for a long time and yet we couldnt take care of our poor.

    This new proposal by Obamma is for the poor people, not everyone. Its for people like me. Those who have a good doctor and good insurance are fine. To the best of my understanding, they will not be effected, which is the part I cannot understand, why all the commotion? This is for the poor people, not the ones that are 'taken care of'....

    I just dont get it..

    My apologies if this is touching politics. I am hoping I am not being political in asking that.


    Bill
    Humble Poly bender and warrior of Vertices


    Alienware Console i7 3770 CPU 3.40 GHz / 16 Gigs of RAM / GTX660 GC w/2 Gigs of VRAM / Windows 7 64 Ultimate
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  4. #4
    .
    Skittles: Offhand, I really don't know if he's for or against the proposed changes... but on principle I'm able to see how this latest development, if fully successful, could make Congress accept the same health care program that they would require us to have. Am loving it! That'll make them all think hard & deep, imo.
    .
    *Edit*- You posted while I was posting, Bill. Valid points... so why not require the whole of Congress to accept the very health care plan that they will pass? Seems to me you would benefit greatly as a result. It would apply to everyone in Congress as well as those of us whom will end up with the plan. Better quality assured, to my thinking. Hope this makes sense.
    .

    ​.

  5. #5
    Well if the choice is still available then I see no reason for congressmen and women to move to the government funded system. It was never meant for them. As far as I'm aware the US government aren't forcing anyone to join the government policy, they are just making it an option.

    There should be no need for consideration of the system, it is just important that the system is in place. Frankly I'd be embarassed defend a system which means that its own people are put through endless financial ruin and suffering.

  6. #6
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    settle it all and have 2 options, goverment funded and private .. we do, those who cant afford it use the NHS (goverment funded) and those who can afford go private if they wish. I've seen both sides of it, both the NHS and private, the only difference is the cost and how many smiles you get, theres a lot of false niceness in private hosipitals!
    yes i know i cant spell half the time! Thank you kindly to those few who pointed that out

  7. #7
    SOH-CM-2014
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittles View Post
    Well if the choice is still available then I see no reason for congressmen and women to move to the government funded system. It was never meant for them. As far as I'm aware the US government aren't forcing anyone to join the government policy, they are just making it an option.

    There should be no need for consideration of the system, it is just important that the system is in place. Frankly I'd be embarassed defend a system which means that its own people are put through endless financial ruin and suffering.
    That was my thoughts too and I agree massively with the last part of that.
    Humble Poly bender and warrior of Vertices


    Alienware Console i7 3770 CPU 3.40 GHz / 16 Gigs of RAM / GTX660 GC w/2 Gigs of VRAM / Windows 7 64 Ultimate
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Skittles View Post
    ...Frankly I'd be embarassed defend a system which means that its own people are put through endless financial ruin and suffering.
    ... ~Absolutely~ Well said!
    .

    ​.

  9. #9
    with all the things the government has run into the ground trusting them with your health is just stupid.
    that they would make themselves have to abide by the same plan they shove down everyone's throat seems commendable until you realize that just because they will be elligable to use it doesn't mean they have to, like so many of the people they inflict with it. every single one of them is very wealthy and can sef-insure. when i see the bill that FORCES them to be subject to that plan with no outside subsidizing, then i may reconsider.

    here in canadia, i have seen what socialized medicine does to people first hand. i can post the x-rays of what they did to my ankle. it looks like a mexican attacked me with a drywall gun. or i could tell the story of what they did to treat my wife's cancer. i can show you how a lack of competition between doctors promotes mediocrity and removes the drive to be better than the next guy. those of you who want socialized medicine either haven't done any serious research, or you're naive enough to believe the government will deal with you fairly before considering budgetary agendas. i wish i was wrong, and i hope history judges those decisions more graciously than i am able :angryfir:

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by cheezyflier View Post
    ...when i see the bill that FORCES them to be subject to that plan with no outside subsidizing, then i may reconsider.
    And thank you for expressing this so well. That is precisely what I had in mind when first reading the email this afternoon.

    Regarding your other thoughts: am feeling your pain & frustration, man. Really.
    .

    ​.

  11. #11
    Ok, here's one thing that no one seems to get..... The US Constitution, and it's Admendments, does not give the President or Congress the right to control health care..... supplimental health care included.

    Now my delemma....
    My supplemental health care went from $35.00 a month, each for the wife and I, to $183.00 as of 01/01/2010. Raised without our knowlege until the bank sent us a notice of being overdrawn in our checking account. Automatic withdrawl for payment. Why we asked did it take a jump like that. You won't believe the answer..... "Because of President Obama's health care plan" was the answer. We cancelled with them and are still waiting for our money back, if we ever get it.

    And to top it off.... no notice from our supplemental carrier that the rate was going up. I say that's theft. The company... Sterling Options 1. Stay away from them or find someone else if you have them. In NY we had American Progressive as our supplemental and it was at no cost to us. There is no American Progressive here in Delaware, or we'd have it back again.

    Whether this thread is political or not.... this health care deal is something everyone needs to be concerned about. It will affect us all, young and old alike. It's already affected the two of us.... we have no supplemental now.

    And as for Cheezy's predicament..... I know many from up across the border that come to the US because Canada's social medicine is that bad.
    Gary -

    Goundcrew Member - Warbirds of Delaware KILG - Member 7G Club
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  12. #12
    .
    Gary- That is some painful stuff, guy. To not even be told of the increase is beyond bad, imo, & especially with how much that increase was. Out of line, man. Hope you & yours find an acceptable alternative soon.

    .
    And to the SOH Moderators: before things get out of hand here, as I'm seeing the distinct possibility that they could now, it would not bother me one bit if this thread were locked or even removed. Thanks.
    .

    ​.

  13. #13
    MyassisDragon
    Guest
    If the giant "for-profit" healthcare corporations are so great and government healthcare is so horrible, then why are the private insurers scared s!*#less if having to compete with a public option.

  14. #14
    Hals und Bein Bruch
    Guest
    WASH YOUR HANDS ...other than that.. HELL YEA IF every other nation relying on our military might provides for it's people out of our our largess.... I say our folks deserve every screening known to man and our children should receivce free screeingz fer everithing known to man.,.

  15. #15
    Private Healthcare---- "Can't afford the operation"
    Gov't Healthcare----"Can't get that operation in time" Or "Operation blotched by imported horse doctor"
    Either way, somone else is paying for my funeral/disposal.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Tim Piglet Conrad
    Piglet's Peculiar Planes
    "Ahhh... the freedom of freeware!"
    First Rule of Aviation:
    Don't piss off your mechanic.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by cheezyflier View Post
    with all the things the government has run into the ground trusting them with your health is just stupid.

    here in canadia, i have seen what socialized medicine does to people first hand. i can post the x-rays of what they did to my ankle. it looks like a mexican attacked me with a drywall gun. or i could tell the story of what they did to treat my wife's cancer. i can show you how a lack of competition between doctors promotes mediocrity and removes the drive to be better than the next guy. those of you who want socialized medicine either haven't done any serious research, or you're naive enough to believe the government will deal with you fairly before considering budgetary agendas. i wish i was wrong, and i hope history judges those decisions more graciously than i am able :angryfir:
    Should I list you 100 studies of poor care from private institutions? Based on your reasoning we would then be able to conclude that you can't trust private firms with your health either, as they are just as likely to provide a poor service.

    I'm sorry that you have had negative experiences, but as someone who has worked across 'socialised' medicine, a lot of what you have said (especially about lack of competition between clinicians etc) is completely wrong. Every day of my current life is 'research,' and frankly your opinion seems to wholly reflect the Fox News attitude to health care.

    I can tell you that here in the NHS, we watch these programs about 'government death panels' and 'uncompetitive doctors,' and sit here trembling with laughter at the crap some of these people are spouting.

    From the WHO world health report 2000 - a ranking of health care systems;

    1 France
    2 Italy
    3 San Marino
    4 Andorra
    5 Malta
    6 Singapore
    7 Spain
    8 Oman
    9 Austria
    10 Japan
    11 Norway
    12 Portugal
    13 Monaco
    14 Greece
    15 Iceland
    16 Luxembourg
    17 Netherlands
    18 United Kingdom
    19 Ireland
    20 Switzerland
    21 Belgium
    22 Colombia
    23 Sweden
    24 Cyprus
    25 Germany
    26 Saudi Arabia
    27 United Arab Emirates
    28 Israel
    29 Morocco
    30 Canada
    31 Finland
    32 Australia
    33 Chile
    34 Denmark
    35 Dominica
    36 Costa Rica
    37
    United States of America
    38 Slovenia
    39 Cuba
    40 Brunei

    If that doesn't tell you something I don't know what else will!

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Piglet View Post
    Private Healthcare---- "Can't afford the operation"
    Gov't Healthcare----"Can't get that operation in time" Or "Operation blotched by imported horse doctor"
    Either way, somone else is paying for my funeral/disposal.
    Well said.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Skittles View Post
    Should I list you 100 studies of poor care from private institutions? Based on your reasoning we would then be able to conclude that you can't trust private firms with your health either, as they are just as likely to provide a poor service.
    well, i can only tell you about the experiences i have had. here goes.

    in oct 2003 a blood clot destroyed my small intestine, nearly killing me. i had 3 major surgeries, and 2 minor ones. i was hospitalized for several months and had to undergo physical therapy, and visiting nurse for a while after that, as well as being fed a solution that was pumped into my chest, 2 bags/day at $1000 each. my medical expenses for that incident were close to a half million dollars. my insurance, which was paid by my employer, covered the entire thing except for my co-pay which was less than 2 grand. what kind of job pays such awesome health care?
    was i a stockbroker or business manager? no. a guy making ductwork for 40k/year. (non-union) for the time i was not working i had to pay my own premiums. it was $30/month

    here's the "B" side.

    1) i moved to canada when i got married. my wife had breast cancer. her treatment was handled the way you might handle your order at mcdonald's drive thru window. when they removed her breast she was put in a recovery room for 2 hours. then they put her in a wheelchair and pushed her out into the lobby for me to take her home. i asked the nurse "what would have happened if she had no one to take her home and look after her?" the nurse replied "we would have called her a cab".

    2) while riding a bicycle, i had a crash. i broke my ankle and my fibula. when i arrived at the hospital, before taking me off the gurney, they asked for my health card. i am not a landed immigrant. i have no health card. they refused to give me so much as an asprin and were going to refuse to treat me. i had to call my wife to come with 24 post dated checks so they could be sure they got their money before they would agree to give me the slightest consideration. when they finally got around to working on me, they not only botched the first surgery, but had to re-break it and do it again. when they did, they still never repaired the fibula, but left it broken in my leg. see the x-rays below and see for yourself. toronto east general is supposed to be their flagship hospital. if i had a choice i wouldn't let those butchers treat my dog.



    and as for what i said about the lack of competition? i see it all the time here. we have 2 children. children get sick and need to go to the doctors. all the clinics here get patients by who lives in the area. there is no competition for business. as a result the doctors could care less how you get treated. most of the clinics are full and have too many patients. it took them over a year to diagnose my wife's coughing, and to properly treat it. we went to 4 different doctors until one of them haphazardly stumbled onto the cause/cure.

    so maybe you see this wonderful health care in france or wherever, but here in the 3rd largest city on the north american continent, where there are more immigrants than any other city in the entire world, the health care isn't worth a flying fig at a rolling donut. that's my experience. i have, since coming to canada in 2006 talked to many people from all over the world. and many of them have experiences that mirror my own. i know several people, who are somewhat wealthy, that cross the border into the states to get diagnosis/treatment on their own dime before letting the butchers here go to work on them. like i said, that's my experiences on both sides of the fence.
    i could tell more but this reply is already voluminous enough.
    in the states you cannot be refused treatment. i have seen homeless people walk into the emergency rooms to be treated for headaches and diahreah. here in canadia, you could be dying, they don't give a darn. if you have no health card, and can't put up the $$ in advance. your sh*t outta luck.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by cheezyflier View Post
    well, i can only tell you about the experiences i have had. here goes.

    in oct 2003 a blood clot destroyed my small intestine, nearly killing me. i had 3 major surgeries, and 2 minor ones. i was hospitalized for several months and had to undergo physical therapy, and visiting nurse for a while after that, as well as being fed a solution that was pumped into my chest, 2 bags/day at $1000 each. my medical expenses for that incident were close to a half million dollars. my insurance, which was paid by my employer, covered the entire thing except for my co-pay which was less than 2 grand. what kind of job pays such awesome health care?
    was i a stockbroker or business manager? no. a guy making ductwork for 40k/year. (non-union) for the time i was not working i had to pay my own premiums. it was $30/month

    here's the "B" side.

    1) i moved to canada when i got married. my wife had breast cancer. her treatment was handled the way you might handle your order at mcdonald's drive thru window. when they removed her breast she was put in a recovery room for 2 hours. then they put her in a wheelchair and pushed her out into the lobby for me to take her home. i asked the nurse "what would have happened if she had no one to take her home and look after her?" the nurse replied "we would have called her a cab".

    2) while riding a bicycle, i had a crash. i broke my ankle and my fibula. when i arrived at the hospital, before taking me off the gurney, they asked for my health card. i am not a landed immigrant. i have no health card. they refused to give me so much as an asprin and were going to refuse to treat me. i had to call my wife to come with 24 post dated checks so they could be sure they got their money before they would agree to give me the slightest consideration. when they finally got around to working on me, they not only botched the first surgery, but had to re-break it and do it again. when they did, they still never repaired the fibula, but left it broken in my leg. see the x-rays below and see for yourself. toronto east general is supposed to be their flagship hospital. if i had a choice i wouldn't let those butchers treat my dog.



    and as for what i said about the lack of competition? i see it all the time here. we have 2 children. children get sick and need to go to the doctors. all the clinics here get patients by who lives in the area. there is no competition for business. as a result the doctors could care less how you get treated. most of the clinics are full and have too many patients. it took them over a year to diagnose my wife's coughing, and to properly treat it. we went to 4 different doctors until one of them haphazardly stumbled onto the cause/cure.

    so maybe you see this wonderful health care in france or wherever, but here in the 3rd largest city on the north american continent, where there are more immigrants than any other city in the entire world, the health care isn't worth a flying fig at a rolling donut. that's my experience. i have, since coming to canada in 2006 talked to many people from all over the world. and many of them have experiences that mirror my own. i know several people, who are somewhat wealthy, that cross the border into the states to get diagnosis/treatment on their own dime before letting the butchers here go to work on them. like i said, that's my experiences on both sides of the fence.
    i could tell more but this reply is already voluminous enough.
    in the states you cannot be refused treatment. i have seen homeless people walk into the emergency rooms to be treated for headaches and diahreah. here in canadia, you could be dying, they don't give a darn. if you have no health card, and can't put up the $$ in advance. your sh*t outta luck.
    Well then may I suggest you don't have a problem with socialised medicine at all, you just have a problem with the Canadian health care system (or even just certain people within it).

    I can find just as many people as you who will swear blind that 'socialised' healthcare is infinately better in every respect than private medicine, and it means absolutely nothing.

    Tell me, if I buy a 10 year old PC that cannot run FSX, does that mean PC's are completely useless and anyone who uses on is naive or ignorant?

    Your first healthcare experience that you described - with significant cost/time investment etc. My friend has a chronic condition which has cause untold problems since birth. Her cost of care (18 years old) is now into the multi-millions of pounds. Did she need insurance? No. Did she need to pay medical bills? No. Did she need to pay ANYTHING? No.

    There is a fundamental difference between the US healthcare system and mine.

    In the US, the condition for help is that you can afford it.
    In the UK, the condition for help is that you need help.

  20. #20
    Charter Member 2014 luckydog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittles View Post
    Should I list you 100 studies of poor care from private institutions? Based on your reasoning we would then be able to conclude that you can't trust private firms with your health either, as they are just as likely to provide a poor service.

    I'm sorry that you have had negative experiences, but as someone who has worked across 'socialised' medicine, a lot of what you have said (especially about lack of competition between clinicians etc) is completely wrong. Every day of my current life is 'research,' and frankly your opinion seems to wholly reflect the Fox News attitude to health care.

    I can tell you that here in the NHS, we watch these programs about 'government death panels' and 'uncompetitive doctors,' and sit here trembling with laughter at the crap some of these people are spouting.

    From the WHO world health report 2000 - a ranking of health care systems;

    1 France
    2 Italy
    3 San Marino
    4 Andorra
    5 Malta
    6 Singapore
    7 Spain
    8 Oman
    9 Austria
    10 Japan
    11 Norway
    12 Portugal
    13 Monaco
    14 Greece
    15 Iceland
    16 Luxembourg
    17 Netherlands
    18 United Kingdom
    19 Ireland
    20 Switzerland
    21 Belgium
    22 Colombia
    23 Sweden
    24 Cyprus
    25 Germany
    26 Saudi Arabia
    27 United Arab Emirates
    28 Israel
    29 Morocco
    30 Canada
    31 Finland
    32 Australia
    33 Chile
    34 Denmark
    35 Dominica
    36 Costa Rica
    37 United States of America
    38 Slovenia
    39 Cuba
    40 Brunei

    If that doesn't tell you something I don't know what else will!

    Is this the best you can do Skittles ???? :isadizzy:

    The methods used to obtain this "ranking" by the WHO back in 2000 were so widely criticised / debunked that the ranking is virtually worthless.......
    Since then, the WHO no longer creates such rankings "because of the complexities of the task".

    You conveniently left out the fact that WHO ranks the U.S. #1 of 191 countries for " responsiveness to the needs and choices of the individual patient".

    Isn't responsiveness what health care is all about ?????
    Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass....

    It's about learning

    to dance in the rain.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by luckydog View Post
    Is this the best you can do Skittles ???? :isadizzy:

    The methods used to obtain this "ranking" by the WHO back in 2000 were so widely criticised / debunked that the ranking is virtually worthless.......
    Since then, the WHO no longer creates such rankings "because of the complexities of the task".

    You conveniently left out the fact that WHO ranks the U.S. #1 of 191 countries for " responsiveness to the needs and choices of the individual patient".

    Isn't responsiveness what health care is all about ?????
    The best I could do? It's a simple illustration that everything isn't hunky dory in the land of the free (at least, it is free if you can afford it).

    I also don't entirely see how you think you are making the slightest point when you criticise my source of information, then quote directly from it....

    Why would you want change? I imagine you have a solid insurance policy and receive the healthcare as required. What if you don't have medical insurance?

    Once again, I absolutely revel in the irony of Americans boasting about their quality of spirit, the importance of community and respect for your fellow man etc, then opposing an innovation which aims to satisfy only the most basic rights for its own people. I'll leave this discussion here. American news networks can rave on all about how Steven Hawking would be dead if he had his care in the NHS (forgetting that he DID have care in the NHS, and to my trained eyes looks very much alive), or how we have death panels that decide on the worthiness of someone's life (a la Sarah Palin) but here in the rainy old UK we'll sit here giggling at the lies the American public is getting spoon-fed day after day.

    I'll also sit here in the comfort that if I ever need help, I have millions of people to say 'Don't worry Skittles, we've got your back."

    In America, thousands of people live in the fear that if they ever need help they will be confronted by a collossal bill.

  22. #22
    Charter Member 2014 luckydog's Avatar
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    I was just pointing out your selective use of bad information.......
    Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass....

    It's about learning

    to dance in the rain.

  23. #23
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    Wow, I'm really surprised at how little some responders here know (Americans, that is) about the contents of Obama's and our Senate's socialized medicine plans for this country.

    And no, Lionheart, working Americans generally don't see an obligation to take care of and pay for every "entitlement" that the "poor" seem to think they should receive !
    "Those who live by the sword are shot by those who don't"

  24. #24
    Surprised this thread made it this long...

    I see no problem with national health care as long as the government could fund it without raising taxes to say UK levels and if the could run it efficiently.

    Two things, among many more, that would never happen.

  25. #25
    In UK if you pay tax you also pay for the NHS. If you want more healthcare you can buy what you need privately. Generally, that will mean a private room and getting to choose the date for your surgery.

    I can only speak from my own experience. If you go private, your choice of doctors may be restricted by your policy conditions. For instance, when I needed surgery, the private healthcare insurance my job provides made me choose a less qualified surgeon because they wouldn't pay for the specialist who was treating me on the NHS. I went along with that as a trade off for choosing the date when I had the surgery.

    Even basic NHS cover is more than most US Healthcare policies would provide. The cost of private medicine is about 1/3 of what it is for the equivalent in the US. Pre-existing conditions, no problem. No job, no problem. Public healthcare is about healthcare not money. Of course you can pay to jump the queue but you pays your money and you takes your choice.

    In the US, healthcare is exempted from the anti-trust laws. Thats really what the current political spat is about. The best thing the government could do for healthcare in the US is repeal that anti-trust protection. That would bring prices down immediately.
    I think we ought always to entertain our opinions with some measure of doubt. I shouldn't wish people dogmatically to believe any philosophy, not even mine.
    Bertrand Russell
    British author, mathematician, & philosopher (1872 - 1970)

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