The Ongoing Mystery Aircraft Thread Part Deux.

**wout** · January 29th, 2010, 04:36

To those who know the notapc3.
Over the years I gathered some info on this one, but still donot know what engine was installed. All info is very welcome!:salute:

**lefty** · January 29th, 2010, 05:14

Originally Posted by wout

To those who know the notapc3.

Haven't a clue what you're talking about !

**wout** · January 29th, 2010, 05:37

The aircraft is not a PC-3.
I know what it is, the name of the builders, date of first flight, some performance figures etc. but never saw info on what engine was used, except that the aircraft was considered underpowered.
Since there is a lot of knowledge on the forum, I hope that those who know this aircraft, also know what engine was fitted.

**lefty** · January 29th, 2010, 23:06

Well so far you have stumped us on this one, Wout.

Have not had a great deal of time to search, but your hint about 'far, far away' means that this is probably from a land as yet undiscovered by Jane's or any other reference books !

Will continue..... Anyone else ?

***Ferry_vO*** · January 30th, 2010, 02:44

The marking on the tail makes me think it's from Japan, and it seems to have WP rockets under the wings, so it's probably a FAC aircraft. The nose looks like it came from any generic Cessna/Beech/Piper though..

**wout** · January 30th, 2010, 03:13

This one if not from Japan and I have no idea whether it was ever in JAWA.
hint 1: Timeframe 1980s
hint 2: shortly afterwards the country produced a 4-seater with very similar wings and tailfeathers and that one is in a museum.
I donot think there is Cessna/Beech/Piper influence, but it seems a design from France may have helped. (I donot speak the language of the country of origin, but in the text it says something about the Socata Rallye.)
And the nicest thing of all? I got info from the country of origin from an aircraft enthousiast who is a 14 year old boy. So there is hope that us nuts have successors, albeit in countries far, far away

***Ferry_vO*** · January 30th, 2010, 04:25

Maybe the Socata connection links to this aircraft: http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviatio.../8/0593895.jpg

BTW It's a Pilatus P-3, not a PC-3.

**lefty** · January 30th, 2010, 09:55

How about the Moroccan effort - Amin Gepal ?

***Ferry_vO*** · January 30th, 2010, 11:46

Timeframe and desciption seems to fit Lefty, but Flightglobal doesn't mention a flying example of the piston engined version, just a mock-up:

<TABLE style="ZOOM: 1" border=0 cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 width="90%" align=center><TBODY><TR><TD class=quote>

MOROCCO
AMIN
Gepal Unveiled in 1983, the Gepal is a
propeller-driven tandem-seat primary/basic
trainer. A full-scale mockup of the pistonpowered
Gepal Mk III with 300kW engine was
displayed at.the 1983 Paris Air Show, where
development of a turboprop-powered Gepal Mk
IV, with 410 kW Pratt & Whitney PT6A, was
announced.
A prototype Gepal Mk IV was scheduled to
fly early in 1984, with deliveries to begin in 1985
against a Moroccan order for 20 aircraft.
Customer: Morocco 20

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

**wout** · January 30th, 2010, 14:07

Just found out that part the Socata Rally connection may have been the engine which my source in .......... says is the same as in the Rallye 220 so engine could be a 220hp Franklin 6A-350.
As for the country of origin, go east, but not as far as Japan or Korea and stay North of Indonesia and it is not Thailand.

**wout** · January 31st, 2010, 02:56

The same aircraft

**lefty** · January 31st, 2010, 04:19

OK you dragged us there screaming, Walter. This must be the Vietnamese HL-1 - found you post in another forum about it.

I suspect information about this will be sparse indeed !

**wout** · January 31st, 2010, 06:34

Lefty, bingo!:ernae: The V.I.S.T. HL-1
Sorry I made life somewhat difficult, but we are dealing with mystery planes, aren`t we?.
First indigenous plane design in Vietnam. Developed by officers/engineers of the Vietnam (Air Force) Institute of Science and Technology (V.I.S.T.) and team leaders, I understand, were Maj-Gen.Truong Kanh Chau and Col. Nguyen Van Hai. The HL-1 was completed in August 1980 and I understand it first flew 25 September of that year.
The TL-1 "Tu Luc" was a four seat development which flew 1984 and this aircraft is now in the Hanoi Aviation Museum (Google pictures for HL-1 and TL-1)

**wout** · January 31st, 2010, 07:13

The chicken and the egg!
Going over the translated text again, it seems that the 4-seater (TL-1) was first to fly (25 Sept.1980) and that the armed tandem-seat HL-1 FAC/trainer (it had provision for 8 u.w rockets) flew in 1984.

**lefty** · January 31st, 2010, 12:49

Wout, your researches are profound indeed.

Sorry, chaps, been busy on the curling rink today - no mysteries to hand at the moment - free house. Wout gave that one away anyway !

**wout** · January 31st, 2010, 13:26

This one is post-war (even 1960s)
Again I would like to learn what make engine was fitted, since I donot know.

**DHC2Pilot** · January 31st, 2010, 22:33

This is a Noorduyn Norseman which has been modified with a different landing gear strut configuration and what appears to be a larger V.Stabilizer. It also appears to have the panoramic window modification. Norseman Mk.I - 420HP Wright, MK.II - 420HP Wright, MK.III - 450HP P&W R-985, MK.IV - 550HP P&W R-1340, MK.VI - 600HP P&W R-1340, MK.V (Built after the Mk.VI - "V" designation was saved for 'victory' after WWII - built by Canadian Car & Foundry for civilian use) - also used the 600HP P&W R-1340. There was also one metallized prototype MK.VII, but performance suffered due to the extra weight. Project was dropped. Hard to tell which Mark this one is/was, except I'm pretty sure it's not a Mk.VI as they used 2 bladed props.
Looking at the picture I also noticed that the lift struts seem to be beefed up as compared to the standard struts of all the Norseman I've seen.

**wout** · February 1st, 2010, 02:22

DHC2Pilot can be on the right track with the Norseman connection since it is sometimes rumored that is was built from (or influenced by) the famous Dutch Canadian.
However, this one comes from a country, not that far away (but still in Asia)
and the manufacturer still build airplanes.
The jury will accept two designations.

**DHC2Pilot** · February 1st, 2010, 12:35

Ok, now I feel dumb....LOL. If that's not a Norseman, then they had one sitting in the shop for taking measurements from when they designed it.

**wout** · February 1st, 2010, 13:19

DHC2Pilot, no reason to feel dumb, to the contrary

You may be absolutely correct in that it is (was) a Norseman However, I never was able to get confirmation on that and that is why I still wonder about the engine (P&W?, Alvis?, Russian?).
The aircraft is the Hindustan HCP-125 a.k.a. the L.A.S. for Logistic Air Support. First flown in September 1960 and developed under leadership of Dr.
C.N.Ghatage and intended as light transport (8-10 seat), flying ambulance etc. One story goes is that it may have been a modified Norseman with a 3-bladed prop, additional cabin windows, curved l/e on the vertical tail, a modified u/c attachment with small stubs supporting the main wheels (see photo) rather than the more standard fuselage gear legs. If there is a Norseman connection I would opt for the 600hp P&W R-1340 as engine. Although I never found out what engine was used, reports indicated that is was a 600hp unit. Btw, did the Indian AF not operate the Norseman?

So..... now I stay up all night to see all the info on this aircraft coming in.

Open House please

**DHC2Pilot** · February 1st, 2010, 13:47

If in fact it was a modified Norseman, it'd be interesting to learn what they were trying to accomplish by increasing the size of the V.Stab - the Norseman had plenty of rudder authority - either on wheels or floats. My father owned a Norseman on floats years ago in Int'l Falls, Minnesota and said it flew nicely, albeit not as easy on the controls as a Beaver, and couldn't match the Beaver's or Otters STOL capability. I guess this just goes to show that there's always someone that has to tinker with things, good enough or not.

***Moses03*** · February 1st, 2010, 18:19

Interesting mysteries Walter. We don't get too many from India or Vietnam!

Here is one that doesn't hail from Asia...

**DHC2Pilot** · February 1st, 2010, 21:12

The illegitimate offspring of a Spartan Executive and a Couzinet? Do we possibly owe credit to our French friends for this curious design? The cowling hints of Russia though. Things that make you go "hmmmmmm."

**lefty** · February 1st, 2010, 22:32

And this one certainly doesn't suffer from an excess of vertical stabilization.... Think it's another Aerofiles special.

BTW, Wout, the HCP-25 seems to have only the briefest mention in any of my tomes. However, the earlier HT-10 used a P&W R-1830 - maybe it is conceivable they used the same unit for the later aircraft ? Dashed economical, these Indian wallahs, what ?

***Ferry_vO*** · February 2nd, 2010, 01:54

Originally Posted by DHC2Pilot

The illegitimate offspring of a Spartan Executive and a Couzinet?

Sooooo close... It's the Spartan 7X Executive:

7X Executive (Standard Seven) 1935 = 4pClwM rg; 285hp Jacobs L-5; span: 39'0" length: 26'8" v: 160/150/45 range: 800. Small tail, long dorsal fin. POP: 1 prototype of the 7 series; ff: 2 (?>3)/19/35 [X/NC13984] c/n 0. Reportedly delivered to Mexico.